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Jesus returns twice in Matthew?


firestormx

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Both passages refer to the same event, the second coming.  Keep in mind that chapters 24 and 25 are all one conversation, on speech. He is talking about the various aspects and various things that will happen at his coming and just after it. 

Yes I agree with Shiloh the he is speaking of the second coming in both passages of the text you refer to.

The first verse you mentioned in Matthew 24:30-31 states - "That when he shall appear" - This is speaking of when Christ first comes into the earth riding on the white horse in Revelation as was prophecied which is the sign of the second coming.  This is his second appearance in the earth but with a different purpose.

Then the verse you mentioned in Matthew 25:31-32 states - "When the Son of Man shall come in all his glory" -  This is speaking of what will further take place in the earth "after" Christ comes into the earth the second time speaking of further things which will happen in the end time final judgement after the holy angels of God have already poured out their vials of wrath on the earth and the trumpet judgments have been fulfilled and taken place.

The "sign" of the rapture the first coming of Jesus he will appear suddenly in the clouds without warning and the trump of God shall sound and the dead in Christ shall rise first (this is the first resurrection of the righteous dead) and those who are alive and remain shall be caught up in the air with them to be ever with the Lord.

But the "sign" of the second coming will be that he will appear in the clouds riding a white horse with a vesture on his chest that reads King of kings and Lord of lords as he will come back to earth the second time to set up his kingdom as the 144,000 Jews (the elect) who seperated themselves and remained pure during the tribulation period will then be raptured out at that time then right after that all the unrighteous dead will arise from there graves (this is the second resurrection) and God will seperate the sheep from the goats at that time.

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On 9/30/2015 at 11:14 AM, bopeep1909 said:
On 9/30/2015 at 11:30 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:
On 9/30/2015 at 6:42 PM, bopeep1909 said:
On 9/30/2015 at 6:33 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Always nice to see what Got Questions says, but what does the bible say  is the more important question.

Please see the many verses included and how they interpret those verses.You would not interpret those verses as literally as I do since I am pretrib.Most people who do not like Got Questions is because their ministry does not line up with what they believe.

Don't get me wrong, I like Got Questions, it is a good site. Of course, a person could alledge, that people like it becuase their ministry lines up with what they beleive, lol. Where I disagree with you though, is your claim, (an the claim of many) that pre-trib is a literal understanding, when in fact it is no more literal than post trib.

The difference is that post-trib (in my opinion at least) is a literla understanding, while pre-trib, is literal understanding plkus added interpretation that pre-tribbers add to the scriptures. For example, that list of 13 things I posted before, that pre-tribbers tend to beleive, that are not found in scripture, or at least, no one was able to post a verse that demonstrated that those beliefs were warranted.

However, instead of quoting Got Questions, I quote myself, on things that post-tribber believe, and the verses that say the same things, without adding things that the bible never says. The odd things it, they are as literal as anything else I think, and oddly have no contradiction, and they even harmonize. For some reason though, that is not a good enough approach for many.

Notice in my quote of what you said, I bolded where you spoke of interpretation. Do you realize that that concept is a bit at odds with what you claim about yourself? Interpretation, is where one arrives at an understanding of something not explicitly said. It is impossible to interpret literally. You can understand something literally (we sometimes call that reading and understanding what we read) or you can interpret, but not both. The only kind of interpreting that I know of that is literal, is when interpreting from one language to another.

For the most part (in my opinion), post-tribbers do not see a need to interpret scripture, they just read it and take it at it's own word. When you add things (like the 13 in my list) to scripture, THAT is interpretation, and in that case, it goes beyond literal. 

I'll leave you do do some more interpreting.

My issue with post tribbers is that they can not explain why the word "Church" is not mentioned in all tribulation Bible passages.Also they do not think that the saved will be touched during the tribulation.Everyone will be affected equally.

You know how Jesus was asked a question from time to time, and then said He would answer, if they answered a question first? Well, I am going to do a similar thing here. Can you explain why the word “church” is not mentioned in the books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Does that mean those books do not pertain to the church? 

Can you think of any other word, that is used of the church? How about the word "The Saints? Is the passage below, not a tribulation passage?

 3And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality, 5and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” 6And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly. 7And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

      8“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

So, there is this beast, who was (alive) was not (dead) and is about to come out of the pit. Who would that be? What does he do? He wreaks havoc on those who dwell on the Earth and whose names are not written in the book of life. Question: Whose names are written in the book? Would that be Christians? So, perhaps the church is not there, but, some people whose names are written in the book are spared. So, who are the people who are sealed from harm?

What about this:

 9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
      “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying,
      “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

      13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Notice the verse 14 there - note that is does not say that they came out BEFORE the tribulation, but came out of the tribulation.

You cannot come out of something, that you were never in!

Or in Rev 20:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

There you have people who were beheaded for being Christians, and clearly they were in the tribulation, no?

Do we really need to have the word "church"? Is not the church comprised of all who are called out from the world to be believers in the savior? Find a verse (since you are focused on things that do not appear) that says the believers in Jesus are the church, unless they are in the tribulation. The church, is believers in Jesus, no matter when and where they are, they are the called out ones, the ecclesia, the church.

You seem to think that there is some sort of powerful logic to the idea that the word church is absent in tribulation passages. That is known as an argument from silence, and arguments from silence are considered as logical fallacies, and you have a problem with post-tribbers, because we refuse to commit logical fallacies?

Let's pretend though, that this form of logic is valid, let's apply it to other verses.

 13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

and

  1“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4“And you know the way where I am going.” 

Those seem like possible rapture passages to me. However, the word "church" is not mentioned. Therefore, by your logic, the church will not be in the rapture.

Can you see why this line of reasoning is faulty?

The word “church” is also missing in Rev 19 and 20. So, I guess, according to your logic, the church not be there to rejoice in heaven and the marriage supper of the Lamb? Additionally, the bride of Christ is found in Rev 19:7 but the word “church” is not mentioned. So, I guess then that they cannot be the church?

A lawyer/apologist, once pointed out to me, that a lot of bad evidence, is not the equal of good evidence. That describes the pre-trib position. It is a lot of bad evidence, arguments from silence, un-merited assumptions and inferences, added ideas not from the Bible.

I have laid out, numerous evidences from scripture, for my beliefs in this area, and not one has been refuted by anyone on this forum. I have pointed out many things that pre-tribbers believe, that have never been stated in the scriptures, and no one has refuted my allegations there either. Every thing I have stated, has evidence for it, harmonizes with scripture, and has no contradictions, and not really any difficulties.

I have never used the "well, it doesn't say that it is not" or "the word X does not appear" arguments. The reason for that, is that I do not need to resort to desperate measures to defend the position that has been demonstrably in church thought for 1900 years. Franky, I distrust modern interpretations over older understandings.

I think Bopeep, if you are honest with yourself, you will note that you raise questions, and say things like "the problem I have is", Then, when someone answers your objections, you then go on to say "yes, but" and you find some other objection. You, in my opinion, do not have an issue with post-tribbers, you have a problem accepting that we might just be correct, and you do not want us to be correct. I think, that hinders you from accepting what the Bible says, so you cling to those 13 ideas that the Bible never says. Is that not a fair observation?

No amount of evidence or refutation, can be enough to satisfy your objections, your desire for the way you want things to be, over powers you objectivity.

Hopefully, some of the things in our conversation, are benefiting others and go toward the questions of the O.P.

You also said: "Also they do not think that the saved will be touched during the tribulation.Everyone will be affected equally."

That is a broad statement about post-tribbers. This post-tribber (me) thinks, just to be clear, that there will be believers and unbelievers in the tribulation. Both believers, and unbelievers, can be victims of the efforts of the anti-Christ and his minions, with believers especially, being the subject of his persecutions. Believers are not immune, and just as throughout history and to the present day, persecution, even to death, is the lot of the faithful. Perhaps even, the more faithful one is, the more persecuted one will be. On the other hand, believers will not be subject to God's wrath, He is, after all, not mad at believers, He forgave believers. and rewards those who die on His behalf. 

"12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Let it never be said, that I am a dispenser of ear tickling doctrine.

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On 9/30/2015 at 1:10 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:
On 9/30/2015 at 11:14 AM, bopeep1909 said:
On 9/30/2015 at 11:30 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:
On 9/30/2015 at 6:42 PM, bopeep1909 said:
On 9/30/2015 at 6:33 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Always nice to see what Got Questions says, but what does the bible say  is the more important question.

Please see the many verses included and how they interpret those verses.You would not interpret those verses as literally as I do since I am pretrib.Most people who do not like Got Questions is because their ministry does not line up with what they believe.

Don't get me wrong, I like Got Questions, it is a good site. Of course, a person could alledge, that people like it becuase their ministry lines up with what they beleive, lol. Where I disagree with you though, is your claim, (an the claim of many) that pre-trib is a literal understanding, when in fact it is no more literal than post trib.

The difference is that post-trib (in my opinion at least) is a literla understanding, while pre-trib, is literal understanding plkus added interpretation that pre-tribbers add to the scriptures. For example, that list of 13 things I posted before, that pre-tribbers tend to beleive, that are not found in scripture, or at least, no one was able to post a verse that demonstrated that those beliefs were warranted.

However, instead of quoting Got Questions, I quote myself, on things that post-tribber believe, and the verses that say the same things, without adding things that the bible never says. The odd things it, they are as literal as anything else I think, and oddly have no contradiction, and they even harmonize. For some reason though, that is not a good enough approach for many.

Notice in my quote of what you said, I bolded where you spoke of interpretation. Do you realize that that concept is a bit at odds with what you claim about yourself? Interpretation, is where one arrives at an understanding of something not explicitly said. It is impossible to interpret literally. You can understand something literally (we sometimes call that reading and understanding what we read) or you can interpret, but not both. The only kind of interpreting that I know of that is literal, is when interpreting from one language to another.

For the most part (in my opinion), post-tribbers do not see a need to interpret scripture, they just read it and take it at it's own word. When you add things (like the 13 in my list) to scripture, THAT is interpretation, and in that case, it goes beyond literal. 

I'll leave you do do some more interpreting.

My issue with post tribbers is that they can not explain why the word "Church" is not mentioned in all tribulation Bible passages.Also they do not think that the saved will be touched during the tribulation.Everyone will be affected equally.

You know how Jesus was asked a question from time to time, and then said He would answer, if they answered a question first? Well, I am going to do a similar thing here. Can you explain why the word “church” is not mentioned in the books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Does that mean those books do not pertain to the church? 

Can you think of any other word, that is used of the church? How about the word "The Saints? Is the passage below, not a tribulation passage?

 3And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality, 5and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” 6And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly. 7And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

      8“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

So, there is this beast, who was (alive) was not (dead) and is about to come out of the pit. Who would that be? What does he do? He wreaks havoc on those who dwell on the Earth and whose names are not written in the book of life. Question: Whose names are written in the book? Would that be Christians? So, perhaps the church is not there, but, some people whose names are written in the book are spared. So, who are the people who are sealed from harm?

What about this:

 9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
      “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying,
      “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

      13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Notice the verse 14 there - note that is does not say that they came out BEFORE the tribulation, but came out of the tribulation.

You cannot come out of something, that you were never in!

Or in Rev 20:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

There you have people who were beheaded for being Christians, and clearly they were in the tribulation, no?

Do we really need to have the word "church"? Is not the church comprised of all who are called out from the world to be believers in the savior? Find a verse (since you are focused on things that do not appear) that says the believers in Jesus are the church, unless they are in the tribulation. The church, is believers in Jesus, no matter when and where they are, they are the called out ones, the ecclesia, the church.

You seem to think that there is some sort of powerful logic to the idea that the word church is absent in tribulation passages. That is known as an argument from silence, and arguments from silence are considered as logical fallacies, and you have a problem with post-tribbers, because we refuse to commit logical fallacies?

Let's pretend though, that this form of logic is valid, let's apply it to other verses.

 13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

and

  1“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4“And you know the way where I am going.” 

Those seem like possible rapture passages to me. However, the word "church" is not mentioned. Therefore, by your logic, the church will not be in the rapture.

Can you see why this line of reasoning is faulty?

The word “church” is also missing in Rev 19 and 20. So, I guess, according to your logic, the church not be there to rejoice in heaven and the marriage supper of the Lamb? Additionally, the bride of Christ is found in Rev 19:7 but the word “church” is not mentioned. So, I guess then that they cannot be the church?

A lawyer/apologist, once pointed out to me, that a lot of bad evidence, is not the equal of good evidence. That describes the pre-trib position. It is a lot of bad evidence, arguments from silence, un-merited assumptions and inferences, added ideas not from the Bible.

I have laid out, numerous evidences from scripture, for my beliefs in this area, and not one has been refuted by anyone on this forum. I have pointed out many things that pre-tribbers believe, that have never been stated in the scriptures, and no one has refuted my allegations there either. Every thing I have stated, has evidence for it, harmonizes with scripture, and has no contradictions, and not really any difficulties.

I have never used the "well, it doesn't say that it is not" or "the word X does not appear" arguments. The reason for that, is that I do not need to resort to desperate measures to defend the position that has been demonstrably in church thought for 1900 years. Franky, I distrust modern interpretations over older understandings.

I think Bopeep, if you are honest with yourself, you will note that you raise questions, and say things like "the problem I have is", Then, when someone answers your objections, you then go on to say "yes, but" and you find some other objection. You, in my opinion, do not have an issue with post-tribbers, you have a problem accepting that we might just be correct, and you do not want us to be correct. I think, that hinders you from accepting what the Bible says, so you cling to those 13 ideas that the Bible never says. Is that not a fair observation?

No amount of evidence or refutation, can be enough to satisfy your objections, your desire for the way you want things to be, over powers you objectivity.

Hopefully, some of the things in our conversation, are benefiting others and go toward the questions of the O.P.

You also said: "Also they do not think that the saved will be touched during the tribulation.Everyone will be affected equally."

That is a broad statement about post-tribbers. This post-tribber (me) thinks, just to be clear, that there will be believers and unbelievers in the tribulation. Both believers, and unbelievers, can be victims of the efforts of the anti-Christ and his minions, with believers especially, being the subject of his persecutions. Believers are not immune, and just as throughout history and to the present day, persecution, even to death, is the lot of the faithful. Perhaps even, the more faithful one is, the more persecuted one will be. On the other hand, believers will not be subject to God's wrath, He is, after all, not mad at believers, He forgave believers. and rewards those who die on His behalf. 

"12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Let it never be said, that I am a dispenser of ear tickling doctrine.

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

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Shalom, firestormx. 

Thanks to everyone for the comments. I guess I just don't understand the position of both verses being about the 2nd coming. It just doesn't make any sense to me. If we are raptured before the Matt. 24 verses, the Jews and any and all who were saved during the 70th week were gathered to Jesus in the Matt. 24:30-31, then what is the point of gathering the nations to separate sheep from goats? Think about it, We are with Jesus. The Jews and tribulation saints were all ready gathered to Jesus when Jesus was coming down and he sent his angels to gather his elect to himself. So who is left to separate? Nobody else will live again until Rev. 20. Jesus sits down on his throne, the nations gather before him so he can separate sheep from goats. Who are the Sheep? We are always with the Lord since the rapture. The Jews and the tribulation saints were gathered by the angels in Matt. 24:30-31. So who is left to separate? It just makes no sense to me.

 

 The only thing that makes sense to me is this. After the AoD the 6th seal and/or 4th trumpet event takes place sometime at the beginning of the final 3 1/2 years, after the 6th seal event as spoken of in Matt. 24  we come to verses 30-31 which is the rapture. Then the parables Jesus tells next makes a lot more sense as well. For, Matthew 24-25 is the end times from the churches point of view. Then when we come to Matt. 25:31-32, we have the 2nd coming where Jesus is separating the Jews and the people who believed there report and come to faith in Jesus during the tribulation from everyone else and setting up his Kingdom on earth.

 

I just don't understand how both can be talking about the 2nd coming. Everyone has been separated already by the rapture and Jesus gathering everyone to himself. I just don't understand, but I thank everyone for sharing there point of view.

It is not two different comings; it’s one Second Coming in two events: First, He gathers His armies, and second, He comes WITH His armies to establish His Kingdom. (That includes what you call “the Rapture,” but it’s not seven years, or even three and a half years removed!) 

The reason why there is a separation of the sheep nations from the goat nations is that He is talking about a WAR TRIBUNAL after the Rescue of the Jewish people! They are the representatives of the various nations of that land, the Middle East (“the earth”), standing before the new King of the Jews and King of Israel, Yeshua` the Messiah of God. They stand there to answer for how they treated Yeshua`s FAMILY, the children of Israel, in particular, but also ALL those who are born into the Family through the Messiah Yeshua`.

If the nations treated them well, then they can become part of Yeshua`s Kingdom (as vassal nations); if they mistreated them, then they are left out of His Kingdom, relegated to expecting future punishment in the Lake of Fire AS A NATION; that is, as a people! That doesn’t mean that all of that nation’s people will go to the Lake of Fire, but it means that it will be far more difficult for an individual to strike out on his own to find the Messiah. This is where members of Islam and Isis will meet the Master’s FULL FURY!

Joel 3:9-17

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
KJV

That “valley of decision” is not a valley for THEIR decision; it’s for the MESSIAH’S decision about THEM!

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On August 8, 2015 at 3:31 AM, firestormx said:

This topic will be discussing Matthew chapters 24-25. But the following verses specifically. Please feel free to use the entire 2 chapters or any other book and chapter of the bible on the return of Jesus to express your point of view.

 

 

Matthew 24: 30-31

 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25 : 31-32

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

 

Above are the verses I have questions about. I would like to know how everyone understands these verses in context to Matthew 24-25 as a whole. For both chapters are talking about the end times. It is one long disclosure by Jesus on the end times, and in this long disclosure he mentions his return twice in very interesting detail.

 

1. Do these verses say Jesus returns twice?

2. Why does the 1st verse above say he returns to gather his elect, while the 2nd verse talks about gathering all nations to him?

3. Why do the verses around the first verse above refer to Jesus only as the son of man, while the verses around the 2nd verses above refer to Jesus as King?

4. Doesn't the gathering of his elect and the gathering of all nations to Jesus first happen at 2 different times?

5. Are these verses talking about a single return of Jesus or 2 different returns of Jesus?

6. Isn't the comment about separating the sheep from the goats a reference to the final judgement in revelation, while the first return to gather his elect more in line with the rapture?

7. Are they both the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus or is only the 2nd set of verses above talking about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus and the first set of verses above talking about the rapture? 

 

I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on this. May God bless you all

Firestormx

 

 

Hey Fire,

i just opened your thread here and your OP is all I've read, but I'm jumping in and will continue to read and share my additional thoughts.

ok, my initial thought is this- absolutely there are two comings. The first he is coming to lift up the church (rapture) and the second coming is to judge the nations and put an end to the evil empires and beasts/Satan. 

I do not believe there is only one coming. That seems very illogical to me to think the rapture and the second are both on the same day. 

Ok, time to read other thoughts.

spock in the house

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On August 8, 2015 at 4:45 PM, firestormx said:

Thanks to everyone for the comments. I guess I just don't understand the position of both verses being about the 2nd coming. It just doesn't make any sense to me. If we are raptured before the Matt. 24 verses, the Jews and any and all who were saved during the 70th week were gathered to Jesus in the Matt. 24:30-31, then what is the point of gathering the nations to separate sheep from goats? Think about it, We are with Jesus. The Jews and tribulation saints were all ready gathered to Jesus when Jesus was coming down and he sent his angels to gather his elect to himself. So who is left to separate? Nobody else will live again until Rev. 20. Jesus sits down on his throne, the nations gather before him so he can separate sheep from goats. Who are the Sheep? We are always with the Lord since the rapture. The Jews and the tribulation saints were gathered by the angels in Matt. 24:30-31. So who is left to separate? It just makes no sense to me.

 

 The only thing that makes sense to me is this. After the AoD the 6th seal and/or 4th trumpet event takes place sometime at the beginning of the final 3 1/2 years, after the 6th seal event as spoken of in Matt. 24  we come to verses 30-31 which is the rapture. Then the parables Jesus tells next makes a lot more sense as well. For, Matthew 24-25 is the end times from the churches point of view. Then when we come to Matt. 25:31-32, we have the 2nd coming where Jesus is separating the Jews and the people who believed there report and come to faith in Jesus during the tribulation from everyone else and setting up his Kingdom on earth.

 

I just don't understand how both can be talking about the 2nd coming. Everyone has been separated already by the rapture and Jesus gathering everyone to himself. I just don't understand, but I thank everyone for sharing there point of view.

I like your thinking here storm. You definitely are using the gray cells in your brain my brother. It doesn't make sense to think all the nations got separated on at Matt 24:29-31 and then we did it again in Matt 25 at the sheep and goats separation. 

I know some people think Matt 24-25 is all about Jews but I ain't buying that line of thought. Matthew is not just a Jewish book. In fact, the church is mentioned a few times by Jesus. 

Someone is being gathered in Matt:24 29-31.  My money is on the raptured saints. I think this parallels Rev 6-7.

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On August 8, 2015 at 6:28 PM, Dave Watchman said:

 

Yes, that's what it looks like to me.

 

 

 

Because the 1st and 2nd verses are probably talking about two different events?

 

 

 

 

Maybe with the 1st verse He's only coming to gather His elect, the 2nd verse He comes back to "sit upon the throne of his glory" to judge "all nations". "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

 

 

 

It sure does sound like it to me.

 

 

 
 
 
Two different trips, probably separated by the 1000 years of Rev.20.
 

 

 

 

It sure does sound like it to me.

 

 

 
2nd set talks about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus, first set of verses speak to the rapture.
 
Good job on noticing this, I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on this too. This looks like an important piece of the puzzle in solving a proper chronology of the end time events. The problem is that this particular puzzle piece can tend to conflict with a couple of different theologies that I can think of. So I'll take care not to say anything that will cause upset as this might require an adjustment to ones prophetic paradigm.
 
This is the second time that a person at Worthy noticed something in Matthew that I would describe as big. The other person said Matthew 24 was in the evening on the mount of Olives but Luke 21 was in the morning in the Temple. Matthew 24/25 is the true Olivet Discourse written in the architecture of an apocalyptic prophecy. In Luke 21, that chronology is broken at verse 12: "but before all this".
 
Handshakes for you Firestormx

 

I like almost everything you said Watchman. Nice job. Clap clap.

the one thing you said that made me frown was you said maybe the sheep and goat judgment happens 1000 years later.

i have not been convinced this judgment happens after the Millenium, and still believe it to happen just before it begins. In other words, I see this judgment occurring right after Armageddon, just before Jesus begins his Millenium rule. 

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On September 29, 2015 at 5:32 PM, bopeep1909 said:
 

The rapture and the second coming are two separate events.The rapture coming before the second coming.

Hey peep,

im with you on this one. I'm curious how people see just one coming that lumps both the rapture and the return to earth on the same day. This is so illogical to me, why isn't it illogical to everyone? (Shrugs shoulders.....)

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On September 29, 2015 at 7:28 PM, bopeep1909 said:
 

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-175:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:131 Thessalonians 4:13-181 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

Hi again peep,

while I like got questions.com, they are not infallible by any means.  I think they got some of this right and some wrong. I definitely do not believe Matt 24:29-31 is the second coming but rather the rapture.  And I definitely believe the whole world will see him coming down to take his elect church during the rapture. This will definitely give the people on earth something to talk about the next day. 

I to be clear, I see the rapture saints in rev 7:9-17. 

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On September 30, 2015 at 9:42 PM, bopeep1909 said:

Please see the many verses included and how they interpret those verses.You would not interpret those verses as literally as I do since I am pretrib.Most people who do not like Got Questions is because their ministry does not line up with what they believe.

Peep,

i know both you and got questions are pre TRIB and it is not my desire to talk you out of that camp, but scripture only assures me (the church) that we will be spared from God's WRATH.  No one has convinced me that God's wrath Precedes The 6th seal. So unless you can show me a clear scripture to offset a clear scripture passage in Rev 6 regarding the commencement of Gods wrath, I can't align myself with a rapture before the 6th seal.

but that is just me. I know you see things differently, and I love you for your steadfastness too. 

(((((Hugs)))) going out to you and all my pre TRIB friends even though despite our differences

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