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Peter on the Last Days - Part One


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The End Times - According to Peter - Part One
( part 2 is here )



While I generally do not think of the post-trib rapture position as an interpretation of scripture (I think of it as a collection of events described in scripture and merely stated as an online), there are those who would and do say that it is one of many interpretations. Certainly it is one of many understandings, I just happen to believe it is likely to be a nearly correct, or mostly correct understanding among many misunderstandings.

What follows, however, is an interpretation. Here, I am examining words of Peter, and drawing from them, what I believe to be reasonable assumptions, but that is all they are.

Matthew 24-25 is the most thoroughly developed passage in scripture which gives a chronological accounting of end times events. There, the greatest authority we could hope to have speaks of these events in response to the question:

"WHEN will these things be, and WHAT will be the sign of YOUR COMING and of the END of the AGE."

My friends who are fond of advancing the pre-tribulation rapture theory, tell me that God's dealings with mankind can be broken down into different dispensations, and that this sermon by Jesus (often referred to as the Olivet Discourse) was directed to a different dispensation (not that of the Church age of Grace), and was intended for the Jews.

Some tell me that the Church Age began at Acts chapter 2, when the Holy Spirit came upon the church at Pentecost, a few tell me the church age began with the church going out into the world, preaching the gospel, which is roughly the same thing.

This dispensational view of things seems to have been developed by John Nelson Darby in the early 1800s, and spread largely due to the Schofield Reference Bible in the early 1900s. From there is spread into U.S. seminaries and then into the pulpits until it had become a commonly accepted idea in the churches of the west.

I mention this dispensational theory, because if has an influence on how people read and understand the Bible. It is a filter, a set of colored glasses, through which many interpret the Bible, perhaps especially the book of Revelation. To be fair, most of us, whether we know it or not, or can admit it or not, probably view many of these things through some sort of preconception. We bring certain beliefs or prejudices to the text with us. Many read the Bible through Darby's dispensational lenses because that is how they were taught in their churches and books they have read etc. My own prejudice is that I read the Bible through the lens of Matthew 24 primarily, so this influences how I understand the bible also. Peter, never heard of Darby nor dispensationalism, but he was there for the lecture in Matthew 24.

Since this is an examination on things Peter had to say on the end times, it seemed appropriate to bring up dispensationalism, since Peter had some things to say that might affect some of dispensationalism's notions.

The context of Acts, chapter 1, is that Jesus had already been crucified, and paid for the sins of believers, and personally, I would have to say that makes a better marker for the beginning of the church. However, Acts 1 notes the following:

3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

I would agree with our dispensational brethren, that the church began at least by the time the Spirit came to fill believers, if not before.

In verses 6-8 we see:

6 Then they gathered around Him and asked Him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the Earth.”

So, there Jesus told them that knowing the times and dates, was not really their business. However, Matthew 24-25, was about knowing the equence of events and the signs of His future coming. He warned them not to be deceived, and gave them signs that believers could use to avoid deception.

So Jesus had already given them instruction about the order of events to come, even if He did not given the them the actual time in which they would come.

Now, in Acts 1:9-11, we see something else stated:

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Take note that what is said there, is that Jesus would return the same way as He left. Now, if He left by ascending up into the sky and disappeared into a cloud, is it not reasonable to assume, that when he returns that He will be seen descending from the sky, out of the clouds?

So, was Matthew 24 etc, intended for the Jews only, and not intended to be understood as concerning the church? Let's look further into some of the things which Peter said on the topic.

In as much as Peter's Sermon in Acts, Chapters 1 & 2 was indisputably happening in the age of the church, regardless of whether one buys into the notion of dispensations or not, we can take what Peter says, as relevant to the church. In fact, in Acts 2:46&47, Luke says:

46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. 

Notice "those who were being saved", is that not a description of the church? Since Peter's sermon is therefore, applicable to the church, it behooves us to note some of the things Peter tells us.

Now, in Acts chapter 2, just after the crowd is drawn to the curiosity of the disciples speaking in tongues, notice what Peter says about the event:

14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “ ‘In the last days, God says,

I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy,

your young men will see visions,

your old men will dream dreams.

18 Even on my servants, both men and women,

I will pour out my Spirit in those days,

and they will prophesy.

19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below,

blood and fire and billows of smoke.

20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

 

So, there we just saw that Peter rightly noted that the Old Testament commented on the last days. The old testament points out that in the last days, God would pour out his Spirit on people. Not only that, but Peter says that this event at Pentecost, is a fulfillment of what Joel said. This means, therefore, that Joel was speaking of the so called (among dispensationalists) Church Age. Joel himself, described this as the last days.

Notice what is included in what Peter pointed out from the prophet Joel's words in verse 20 of Acts 2:

"The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord."

If the sun is darkened and the moon turned to blood before the day of the Lord, then we can be assured that the day of the Lord, is an event that follows the signs of these celestial events.

It is interesting to note therefore, what Jesus had said back in Matthew 24:

29 “Immediately after the distress (or as many translations say "tribulation) of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

We have already seen that Peter sees himself as in the last days spoken of by the prophet Joel and that this period of time would conclude with the day of the Lord.

We also noted that the signs that would proceed the day of the Lord, match up with what Jesus said would happen after the tribulation, namely cosmic disturbances seen in the darkening of the Sun and the Moon (Matthew 24:29). Peter quoted Joel as saying: "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

It seems apparent then, that it was Peter's expectation, that the church should continue in it's task of evangelism, through the end of the tribulation, when the cosmic signs appear, and the day of the Lord begins.

Peter, having been present at the teaching which Jesus gave on the Mount of Olives in Matt. 24, would have heard what we see recorded in Matt 24:9-14:

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

This points out the gospel was to be preached right up to the end:

"and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

So, what we have here in sequence is:

  • Jesus death on the cross

  • His ascension into Heaven

  • the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost

  • the spread of the Gospel

  • the tribulation (people being persecuted, killed and hated because of Jesus)

  • the darkening of the Sun and the Moon

  • evangelism continuing right up to this time

  • Christ returning visibly in the clouds (just as we noted in Acts 1:9-11 and in Mat 24:30)

  • His gathering of the elect to be with Him, (in Matt 24:31)

  • the day of the Lord is ushered in

It appears then, that Peter understood both Joel's prophecy, and the instructions given in Matt 24, in a very literal, chronological, and interwoven way. While nothing said in Matthew 24, nor in Peter's sermon says that the Lord would NOT return before the tribulation to rapture the church, we should note that nothing said Jesus would return before the tribulation.

We do see, however, that a return of Jesus to gather the elect after the tribulation and before the day of the Lord, is spelled out in the clearest of terms, so we KNOW that is going to happen.

We should decide which we think is better, to speculate about things that are never said in the Bible, or accept the things which are specifically stated. I prefer the latter, and cannot in good conscience, go with the the speculation approach.

This is the end of Peter on the End Times, Part One

More Parts may follow, as Peter does have more to say.

 

Edited by Omegaman 3.0
inserted link to part 2
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Hi Omegaman,

 

Some thoughts concerning what Jesus said on earth & then what He said when He was glorified, ascended & exalted to the Father`s right hand.

 

 I agree that we, the Body of Christ are to teach what Jesus said in Matthew 24  (etc) as it is truth. However I believe we are to teach a lot of what Jesus said to Israel in the light of His purposes for them. Let me explain.

 

When Jesus was manifested on earth He taught His disciples –

 

  1. That He was the Lord & Christ, redeemer, Son of God, very God & giver of the Holy Spirit.

 

      2. Things concerning Israel.

 

  1.  Jesus is King of Israel. (Matt. 2: 2)

  2. Israel will rule over the nations. (Acts 1: 6)

  3. The 12 disciples will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19: 28)

  4. They are not to know the times & seasons concerning that restoration. (Acts 1: 7)

  5. He will come as a thief to them. (Matt. 24: 43 & 44)

  6. The meek shall inherit the earth. (Matt. 5: 5)

  7. The Gentile `sheep` who, although didn`t know Christ, look after the brethren, Jews, visiting them in prison, feeding & clothing them etc will go through to Christ`s rulership. (Matt. 25: 31 – 46)

  8. A Day of Judgment for people in some cities as didn`t repent although mighty works were done in them. (Matt. 11: 20 – 24)

     

 

Then when Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father on high He taught the Body –

 

  1. That He was the Lord & Christ, redeemer, Son of God, very God & giver of the Holy Spirit.

 

      2. Things concerning the Body of Christ.

 

  1. Jesus is Head of the Body. (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

  2. The Body of Christ will rule over the universe & the world. (Rev. 3: 21)

  3. The overcomers in the Body will rule & reign with Christ on His throne in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)

  4. The believers (B of C) are told the times & the seasons. (1Thess. 5: 1 & 2)

  5. The Lord will not come as a thief to the Body of Christ. (1 Thess. 5: 4)

  6. The Body of Christ`s inheritance is in heaven. (1 Peter 1: 4, Phil. 3: 20, Col. 1: 5,  Heb. 3: 1)

  7. Our salvation is not dependent on `feeding & clothing & visiting...` but is an outworking of the Holy Spirit within. (Gal. 5: 22 & 23,  1 Peter 2: 11 & 12,  1 John 4: 20)

  8. The Body of Christ are not subject to the Day of judgment, but come before the Bema seat of Christ for rewards of service done in the power of the Holy Spirit. (2 Cor. 5: 8 – 10, Rom. 14: 10)

     

 

Thus we can clearly see from these few examples that although the Body of Christ should teach others all of scripture it is important to know the different inheritances for the different groups. This particular point is why there is so much confusion & misunderstanding concerning end times.

 

The Apostle Paul was given revelation by Jesus, concerning the Body of Christ & His Headship. This revelation was not known previously & as such we, the Body of Christ teach more than what was shared in the Matt. 24.  Also, as Jesus said He has given the Holy Spirit to guide us into all the truth. This is a process in operation even now.

 

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Marilyn C
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The difference in the rapture and the second coming:

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-175:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:131 Thessalonians 4:13-181 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why it is important to keep the rapture and the second coming separate.

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30)

Edited by bopeep1909
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Omegaman,

Some observations on what you have stated above:

1. When the Olivet Discourse was given, the Church had not been established. Even the apostles had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit.  Therefore it would have been PREMATURE for the Lord to discuss the Rapture of the Church, and it is incorrect to assume that the Rapture is alluded to in Matthew 24 (and related passages).

2. The gathering of the elect in Mt 24:31 is NOT a reference to the Church but to redeemed Jews (the saved remnant) at the Second Coming of Christ.  Please compare 1 Thess 4:13-18 carefully with this verse and note the critical differences, primarily that for the Rapture the Lord HIMSELF will descend with a shout, not send His angels to the four corners of the earth.

4. Peter quoted from Joel's prophecy. But the OT prophets did not necessarily know about the gaps within their prophecies.  Joel 2:28,29 began to be fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, but there would be a HUGE GAP between the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the cosmic cataclysmic events described in Joel 2:30-32 (which corresponds to the 6th seal, and occurs after the great Tribulation). Also Joel mentions "Mount Zion", "Jerusalem" and "the remnant whom the Lord shall call" (the same as the elect in Mt 24:31).

5. Mentioning Darby and Dispensationalism does not make any difference whatsoever.  Now that we are in the 21st century, we can see that there was (and is) indeed a Church Age, since the Great Tribulation and the events following it until the Second Coming of Christ are yet future. The main thrust of Dispensationalism is that after the Church Age there will be a time of severe judgements (as described in Revelation) followed by the Second Coming and the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.  So there is nothing "weird" about this interpretation of Scripture. 

 

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20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

 

endtimespeter1.pdf

Well said Omegaman v3.0!

The day of the Lord, which is our gathering together to Him (resurrection / rapture) clearly happens after that significant prophetic sign.  That sign is associated with the sixth seal.

By the way, I don't have access to the pdf.

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Omegaman,

Some observations on what you have stated above:

1. When the Olivet Discourse was given, the Church had not been established. Even the apostles had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit.  Therefore it would have been PREMATURE for the Lord to discuss the Rapture of the Church, and it is incorrect to assume that the Rapture is alluded to in Matthew 24 (and related passages).

2. The gathering of the elect in Mt 24:31 is NOT a reference to the Church but to redeemed Jews (the saved remnant) at the Second Coming of Christ.  Please compare 1 Thess 4:13-18 carefully with this verse and note the critical differences, primarily that for the Rapture the Lord HIMSELF will descend with a shout, not send His angels to the four corners of the earth.

4. Peter quoted from Joel's prophecy. But the OT prophets did not necessarily know about the gaps within their prophecies.  Joel 2:28,29 began to be fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, but there would be a HUGE GAP between the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the cosmic cataclysmic events described in Joel 2:30-32 (which corresponds to the 6th seal, and occurs after the great Tribulation). Also Joel mentions "Mount Zion", "Jerusalem" and "the remnant whom the Lord shall call" (the same as the elect in Mt 24:31).

5. Mentioning Darby and Dispensationalism does not make any difference whatsoever.  Now that we are in the 21st century, we can see that there was (and is) indeed a Church Age, since the Great Tribulation and the events following it until the Second Coming of Christ are yet future. The main thrust of Dispensationalism is that after the Church Age there will be a time of severe judgements (as described in Revelation) followed by the Second Coming and the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.  So there is nothing "weird" about this interpretation of Scripture. 

 

1.  However, the disciples very likely knew about the resurrection on the last day.  Martha knew it as well.  John 11:24  He wasn't discussing the rapture in Matthew 24.  He was discussing the resurrection / rapture.  You can't separate the two.  It's all part of changing to immortality those who belong to Christ; the dead in Christ are resurrected first, then those who are alive are changed.  The fact that the mystery of being changed was revealed later is irrelevant.  It's all part of our gathering together to Him on the day of the Lord.

2.  Those two references are not mutually exclusive.  One follows the other.  First, Christ descends with a shout and changes to immortal all those who are His.  Then, the angels go forth throughout all heaven and earth to gather the newly immortal together....for the marriage supper.  There is absolutely no conflict between those two passages.  They compliment each other and talk of the same event.

 

We should decide which we think is better, to speculate about things that are never said in the Bible, or accept the things which are specifically stated. I prefer the latter, and cannot in good conscience, go with the the speculation approach.

Motive has a lot to do with how we approach the subject.

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1.  However, the disciples very likely knew about the resurrection on the last day.  Martha knew it as well.  John 11:24  He wasn't discussing the rapture in Matthew 24.  He was discussing the resurrection / rapture.  You can't separate the two.  

One would have to force the Resurrection/Rapture into the Olivet Discourse to come up with this conclusion.  There is NOT A HINT of any resurrection whatsoever in Matthew 24.  The Rapture is strictly related to the Church, and the Church was neither in existence at that time, nor in view in this passage.  That would have been premature and confusing to the apostles at that point. Context is everything.

We always seem to forget that God has a plan for the Church and another plan for redeemed and restored Israel on earth.  Once we get a grasp of that, there is absolutely no confusion. The Second Coming of Christ include God's direct dealings with the nation of Israel.

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Hi Omegaman,

 

Some thoughts concerning what Jesus said on earth & then what He said when He was glorified, ascended & exalted to the Father`s right hand.

 

 I agree that we, the Body of Christ are to teach what Jesus said in Matthew 24  (etc) as it is truth. However I believe we are to teach a lot of what Jesus said to Israel in the light of His purposes for them. Let me explain.

 . . . cut here to abbreviate my reply . . .

. . .  

Marilyn.

  

yes, all well and good Marilyn, but most of that is not related much to the topic of looking at things Peter had to say, these things are fine observations for other topics, my ongoing battle here always seems to be maintaining the focus of a topic. Otherwise, I would spend all day replying to extra material that people insert into a topic.

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Hi Omegaman,

 

I quite understand concerning looking at many scriptures, thus I`ll concentrate on only one –

 

`..the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night,...` (2 Peter 3: 10)

 

Peter, an apostle to the Jews –

 

`for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised....` (Gal. 2: 8)

 

speaks concerning the Day of the Lord coming as a `thief in the night,` (2 Peter 3: 10).  This he knew by the Holy Spirit & as you say he was there when Jesus told them when He was on earth. (Matt. 24: 43) Even Jesus Himself at that time said only the Father knew the day & hour. (Matt. 24: 36)

 

Now we know that when Jesus ascended to the Father`s throne, that He gave apostles,....(etc) To one of these He gave the revelation of the Body of Christ. He also gave His Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth – His whole counsel. Thus at the Father`s right hand with all knowledge, all power, & all presence (by the Holy Spirit) the Lord Jesus Christ reveals to His Body through the apostle Paul this amazing revelation –

 

`But concerning the times & the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the DAY OF THE LORD SO COMES AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT,` for when THEY say, “Peace & safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon THEM, as labour pains upon a pregnant woman. And THEY shall not escape.

 

BUT YOU, BRETHREN, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, SO THAT THIS DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF.

 

YOU  are all sons of light & sons of the day. WE are not of the night nor of the darkness.` (1 Thess. 5: 1 – 5)

 

Thus it is important for us to read God`s word in light of what the Lord says not only to the 12 disciples who were sent to the Jews, but also to what the Lord says to His ascension apostles who are sent to the Body of Christ.

 

Did you note the  `THEY & THEM` in what the Lord says through Paul. THEY are those in darkness to whom the Day of the Lord will come as a thief & overtake THEM. THEY are the ones in darkness.

 

Which are you Omegaman?

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Marilyn C
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On 9/6/2015 at 5:54 PM, bopeep1909 said:

The difference in the rapture and the second coming:

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-175:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:131 Thessalonians 4:13-181 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why it is important to keep the rapture and the second coming separate.

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30)

Sigh, I wonder if we will ever get past this irresponsible tactic where people state something that is an opinion, or is their personal definition as though it is a Biblical doctrine. If I were to say, "Paul was an extraterestial alien", I would likely be ridiculed for it, and rightly so. Yet people routinely do a similar thing in this forum.

I think this tactic is deplorable. I realize that people who do this, mean no harm, and are genuinly stating what they belieive to be true. However, I bleieve it is improper, to imply that the Bible says things which it does not.

Let's look at examples of how this is done:

"3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-175:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41)."

First, it is stated that the rapture is the removal of belieivers as an act of deliverance, and verses are cited. I like that fact that verses are cited, because then we can look them up so see what the verses say: In this case, 1Thess 4:13-17:

 13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Verse 17 indeed says "we who are alive and remain will be caught up", so certainly this IS the rapture. However, those verses say absolutely nothing about  it being an act of deliverance, so while there is no deliberate deception, that fact remains that if a person cites a reference to establish an idea, and that idea is not contained in the reference, then it is never the less deceptive. This is why I posted that thread about the things that are never said in the Bible, that some people teach as true. When people assert ideas as factual, and the evidence is lacking, that is a form of deception, no matter how well intentioned.

So, giving this poster the benefit of a doubt, perhaps this 1 Thess reference was not meant to show us anything about the deliverance, but only the fact if believers being caught up. Of course, post-tribbers such as myself already know and admit that fact. So, what about 1 Thess 5:9? Does that establish this act of deliverance? Let's look:

 9For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

Now, that verse seems to have some potential to show and act of deliverance. I can see why people gravitate to this promise. However, we should be asking ourselves, what is this wrath that we are not destined for? Is this necessarily the tribulation. If we can show, that the tribulation period (and to the pretribber that means a 7 year long period in their theory) is God's wrath, then we might be able to make a case. However, we would also have to establish that it is God's wrath, that we are delivered from, and also that the tribulation is the only type of wrath, that God has in the future as of when that verse was written.

Notice that the verse begins with the word "for". That means that there is some thought stated before this verse, and this verse is addressing. Going to the beginning of the paragraph, we can see what the context is, and it is an end times context, so far, so good.

"1Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night."

So, the subject is at least, related to the Day of the Lord. In the O.P. I quoted the following verse from Acts 2:20

"The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord."

So, we see here that Paul in referring to the Day of the Lord, is referring to an event which, seemingly at least, according to Jesus In Matt 24, is Immediatly after the tribulation, when He is about to return:

 29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT

So, perhaps this idea that a deliverance is in 1 Thess 5:9 is an accurate one, but if so, it appears that this deliverance is after the tribulatlion, not before.

We could go on the demonstrate this a number of other ways, but one should be enough to convince us that Paul does not seem to be speaking of a pre-trib rapture. If you want to pursue that yourselves. look at other things in that 1 Thess 4 passage, like the order of events that happen before the rapture (just as a hint).

Another thing to consider in the 1 Thess 5:9 thing, is that the wrath that we are not destined for, is contrasted with the alternative to that wrath, what we ARE destined to. We are destined to salvation. I am expecting to obtain salvation, purchased by Jesus on the cross, so I do not have to endure God's wrath in eternity.

I could site as much as I already have here, to refute the conclusions suggested in the citation of these Thessalonian verses. I do not see any reason to over power readers with too much information, I have given enough to demonstrate that these verse do not necessarily lead one to assume a pretrib rapture.

The other claims and citations in that post, can be discredited just as easily. Sadly, this has been done before, but never seems to make a difference to some people. Some people will defend man made doctrines over what the bible says, an continue to promote things that they have seen, are not warranted.

So, I respond, not because I think that a person can be succesfully corrected, but I hope that when the flaws are exposed, others will not be led astray, and will do their own study, and not just absorb what they are fed with cut and paste answers they read somewhere. Be a Berean, one who searches the scriptures to see what is true. Cut and pastes are great, when Bible verses are pasted, in context, and allowed to speak for themselves.

Of course, it is true that sometimes commentary might be in order, to bring out what might go unnoticed by some, but when you read such comments, look at them carefully, and see if that is what the Bible is really saying.

If someone wants me to expose the other flaws that are deceiving in that post, I can do that, but I prefer to move on to other things and let this thread be about what is was intended to be about, things that Peter said and how may they relate to the end times.

Thanks for the ear, and the encouragment from those who see and understand what I am saying. I also want to thank those who are making a counter point, for having a passion and an interest in the truth as they see it.

Edit 12/2/2017 - Note: This post quotes a user named bopeep1909, that may be confusing to some, not understanding where the quote came from. It is a reference to the third post in this thread, which now says it was posted by missmuffet. missmuffet formerly had the username bopeep1909, sorry about any confusion.

 

 

 

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