144,000 are first fruits?

[Kindle]

4 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Do you think that the 144,000 will be from the true bloodline of the 12 tribes?

I do

[OneLight]

9 minutes ago, worthy said:

I do

So do I, but some don't.  Two groups are Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon's.  There are also other groups that believe in the Replacement Theology where they believe the Church replaces Israel.

[Kindle]

2 minutes ago, OneLight said:

So do I, but some don't.  Two groups are Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon's.  There are also other groups that believe in the Replacement Theology where they believe the Church replaces Israel.

Ok.

 

[Sister]

8 hours ago, OneLight said:

 

I don't think anyone here would ever deny that we are to receive the same as anyone, Jew or Greek, as long as we remain in Him.  Do you think that the 144,000 will be from the true bloodline of the 12 tribes?

Hi Onelight

No, I can't see the 144,000 as being the true bloodline of the 12 tribes. 

Some reasons for my view is that;

The 144,000 follow the Lamb.  They are "sealed" before the 7 Angels with the 7 plagues start.

This means they are Christians of the end times, a small elite group.

The scriptures tell us that because Israel rejected Christ, salvation has gone out to the gentiles, and this is all in God's plan so everyone gets a chance;

 Romans 11:11   I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Israel has been blinded, and are enemies of the gospel.  The bible tells us this.  God has provoked Israel to jealousy to them who are not a nation (Romans 10:9)

Now if Israel has been blinded and offended because of Christ, and God says, ok, you rejected my Son, now salvation will go out to the gentiles, and they will get your inheritance instead, then how does it make sense that Israel are the "firstfruits"? 

It doesn't make sense to me and goes against the doctrine preached to us. 

If any Jew believes in Christ he is one in Christ, and one with the gentiles because of "faith". There is no different between Jew or Greek.  Isn't this supposed to tell us something?  Then we read in Rev about the 144,000 being numbered out of the 12 tribes of Israel, and everybody says, oh, that's Israel, the first-fruits, which means the first fruits picked......the cream of the crop.......of the end times...... without taking into consideration many other scriptures and clues laid out for us, then we will see the wrong picture. 

The scriptures cannot contradict, or else we cannot rely on them for true doctrine and truth.  The only thing that will now make sense is that the gentiles are grafted into the 12 tribes to receive the promises, yes all Christians, but out of all of them Christians, only 144,000 "chosen" to be the first-fruits.

But I do know that there is a difference between Jew and gentile for all those "not in Christ".  We know that God has reserved a remnant from Israel, and their part during the millennium will also be glorious.  The only difference is that the remnants will be brought into the kingdom in the flesh, and the saints will be changed.

Israel will still get their inheritance, but not first.  They will go back into the garden where the tree of life is and there they will be taught Christ for a thousand years.  So the 144,000 first-fruits cannot be Israel, because Israel are entering the kingdom in the flesh.

 

 

[Daniel 11:36]

Not what Revelation 7:1-8 tells

The 144000 will emerge at the beginning of the coming tribulation for a purpose, to spread the gospel of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth

This will be in contrast with those made immortal of both Jew and Gentile just before who are seen in heaven in 7:9-17

Romans 11:25-36 is clear on this matter

The Lord is not finished with Israel 

[Sister]

1 hour ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Not what Revelation 7:1-8 tells

Hi Daniel

are you speaking to me?  (my keyboard is stuck)

Rev 7:1-8 is about the 144,000 being "sealed".  The angels are told not hurt the earth, the sea or any trees until these are "sealed".  (just before the trumpets are blown)

John 6:27   Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

How many sealed in the end times?

Only 144,000.  No more, no less.  Only them.

What about the rest of the saints?

 Daniel 7:25   And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 Revelation 6:10   And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

  Revelation 6:11   And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

I am prepared for the tribulation and all the hardships that are coming, but as I see it, looks like only the 144,000 are going to be in safe hands during this period.

 

Revelation 14:1   And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
 

 Revelation 14:3   And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Mt Sion is not just the name for a mountain, but it is the mountain of the Lord the 144,000 are standing on.... "the Kingdom of God" in heaven, before the throne.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

Not sure I understand what you are saying, but the Israelites of 144,000 have a distinctive purpose during the tribulation period .... they are sealed and protected during their mission

Many others of Israel will be subjected to the tribulation period

1/3 will turn to the Lord and will be saved .... 2/3 will be lost with no hope for the future [Zechariah 13:8-9]

Replacement theology is not valid

Many believe this insidious idea and much is at stake .... Israel is one thing, those of both Jewish and Gentile converts is another  

[Aryeh]

Modern Israel is not Israel, but Judea.  Modern Israel is "the stick of Judah". The 10 tribes of the Northern Kingdom left and were lost among the peoples, after 721 BC. Ephraim disappeared. Therefore, today there is a clear Israel of the Jews, "Judah and the sons of Israel, his companions", and there is an Israel gathered by Jesus Christ, not everyone who enrolled in the Christian, but those who are in fact such - "Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions". (Ez. 37)

 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will put them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand."'  

Pay your attention: not the Jews will be swallowed up by the Christian religion, but the Jews, today's Israel, will accept into their midst the faithful remnant of Christians, as the returned Ephraim.

However, for this, Ezekiel's Temple must first be built.

144,000 are those who will have time to enter the Eastern gate of the temple from 1 to 10 Tishrei, in the days of sanctification of the altar. After that, the doors of the eastern gate will be closed forever. There will be a trial: acceptance by Israel of God's gift in the form of the Temple and those who appeared to them in this Temple in the name of Jesus Christ.

This can take a few years. For example, 3,5 years, or 1,335 days, from Tu B'Shvat to Simhat Torah, when the first "fruits" of the Tree of Life planted in Israel can be eaten according to the law of Leviticus 19: 23-25.

Please do not assume that 144,000 is a literal number of people. This may be the number of communities, Christian groups from around the world, who sent their representatives to the day of the consecration of the Temple.

Since our faith is a continuation of the faith that we inherited from past generations of believers in Christ, in fact the number 144,000 includes the whole Church, both the living people, and the dead in past centuries.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me."

Israel will accept "until the fullness of the Gentiles"(Rom 11).

As receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward, Israel will receive its reward.

We live in an amazing time.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Aryeh

[Kindle]

On 3/22/2017 at 4:40 AM, Sister said:

Hi Onelight

No, I can't see the 144,000 as being the true bloodline of the 12 tribes. 

Some reasons for my view is that;

The 144,000 follow the Lamb.  They are "sealed" before the 7 Angels with the 7 plagues start.

This means they are Christians of the end times, a small elite group.

The scriptures tell us that because Israel rejected Christ, salvation has gone out to the gentiles, and this is all in God's plan so everyone gets a chance;

 Romans 11:11   I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Israel has been blinded, and are enemies of the gospel.  The bible tells us this.  God has provoked Israel to jealousy to them who are not a nation (Romans 10:9)

Now if Israel has been blinded and offended because of Christ, and God says, ok, you rejected my Son, now salvation will go out to the gentiles, and they will get your inheritance instead, then how does it make sense that Israel are the "firstfruits"? 

It doesn't make sense to me and goes against the doctrine preached to us. 

If any Jew believes in Christ he is one in Christ, and one with the gentiles because of "faith". There is no different between Jew or Greek.  Isn't this supposed to tell us something?  Then we read in Rev about the 144,000 being numbered out of the 12 tribes of Israel, and everybody says, oh, that's Israel, the first-fruits, which means the first fruits picked......the cream of the crop.......of the end times...... without taking into consideration many other scriptures and clues laid out for us, then we will see the wrong picture. 

The scriptures cannot contradict, or else we cannot rely on them for true doctrine and truth.  The only thing that will now make sense is that the gentiles are grafted into the 12 tribes to receive the promises, yes all Christians, but out of all of them Christians, only 144,000 "chosen" to be the first-fruits.

But I do know that there is a difference between Jew and gentile for all those "not in Christ".  We know that God has reserved a remnant from Israel, and their part during the millennium will also be glorious.  The only difference is that the remnants will be brought into the kingdom in the flesh, and the saints will be changed.

Israel will still get their inheritance, but not first.  They will go back into the garden where the tree of life is and there they will be taught Christ for a thousand years.  So the 144,000 first-fruits cannot be Israel, because Israel are entering the kingdom in the flesh.

 

 

Gentiles are not grafted into the 12 tribes. They are grafted into israel.

The gentiles arent apart of the 144k.

How can they be taught about Christ? You must know who he is and have had accepted him into your heart to get intoheaven. No one goes to tge father except they go through the son.There is no exceptions.

I am not trying to start a debate but some of the things you say contradict scripture. If they don't plz correct me with scripture. 

[Sister]

Hi Worthy

I havn’t got time to find all the scriptures now, but even if I did find them, you will not see it written out plainly.  If we have built our foundation on the “truth”, then we can see by putting all the scriptures together to get the clear picture, not a distorted picture.

Seek and ye shall find.

 

It’s good that you ask this question.  I will explain in my own words, and I can find some more scriptures tomorrow for you.

 

In the OT, the firstfruits were the best of the crop, and picked first, then offered to God before the main harvest.  I think it was 10% of the crop.  So a small portion was put aside for God, and it was the best of the crop, hand picked by man.

We have God’s field, Zion, on earth. In that field, the Word of God was planted, and the good seed grew.  We also know that the enemy sowed weeds amongst the good seed, so we have truth planted, and lies in the same field.

God said to let both grow together until the “harvest”., and we know the harvest is in the end times, when both seed are fully grown and ready to be separated.

 

…but just before the harvest,  amongst those living in end times, the 144,000 firstfruits are to be picked and put aside.  So only a small portion of the finest fruits “living” will be chosen, not by man this time, but by Christ himself.

 

We know the firstfruits are Christians, because they followed the Lamb wheresoever he goes, and they know the song of the Lamb that no other man knows but them, because they have been fed by the Lamb.  They have been given the full truth, and true doctrine. 

Knowing this song does not mean they knew Hebrew, or were Jews, or knew of all the traditions and feasts, no, it means they were SEALED with This promise;

 John 6:27   Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

 

They are labouring for the "truth".

 

The 12 tribes of Israel were offered the promises of the kingdom only IF they continued serving God.  They broke that promise, and started going their own way even before Christ came.  They killed all their prophets, and would not receive correction.

 

When Christ was sent to them they rejected him.  They killed him also.  Therefore, God called the gentiles, and invited them into his kingdom, and the gentiles repented.  Israel did not.  And because of this Israel were blinded to the truth, until the fullness of the gentiles come in.  Until then Israel are enemies of the gospel of Christ.

There are so many parables explaining this.

 

So all the promises of the kingdom made to the 12 tribes, will be given to the gentiles in their stead,…the gentiles will “inherit” the entire kingdom of God at the resurrection.  Therefore they will “enter” the “kingdom” “first”.

 

 Matthew 19:30   But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

 

 

But….because of mercy, God has selected a remnant of Israel to be brought back into the kingdom to learn Christ.  They will not be brought back “changed” in “spirit form”, but brought back “in the flesh”, and brought back from all generations.  They will be given "mercy" at Christ's coming.

 

The 12 tribes will still receive the promise of the kingdom, but only after the 1000 years when they are “changed”.  Until then they will be taught truth, and will dwell in the kingdom on earth in the flesh and will live in peace, and will be a light to the nations for a thousand years.

 

 

So the tribes of Israel have grown, because the gentiles have been grafted into the tree of life, therefore they are numbered amongst them to receive the promises, but will receive them FIRST.

The numbers in each of those tribes would be a lot, but out of those tribes, with the gentiles grafted in now, ONLY 144,000 are selected to be the firstfruits.  They are not the “remnants” of Israel, but saints, whether Jew or Gentile, for there is no difference, because they followed the Lamb.  They receive a “double portion” of the kingdom, and will teach their allotted tribe during the millennium.  12,000 overseing the tribe of Judah, 12,000 overseeing the tribe of Rueben, etc etc.

 

Every saint in the kingdom will get a job to do, but the 144,000 will oversee the 12 tribes of Israel, because they made their robes white before the Lamb and “overcame”, walking worthy of the Lamb, having no need to go through the tribulation because their worship was true.  They are put to safety and they are handpicked “first”, because they are chosen, and Christ has chosen them, not men.

So out of all the saints who will take part in the first resurrection,  the firstfruits will be selected first before the harvest, and will not be thrown into a fiery trial.  They will be taken somewhere to safety (stored in the barn so to speak)

 

And 144,000 is not a large number according the number of Christians we have in the end times, therefore Christ said “Many are called, but few are chosen”, because Beliar has corrupted the truth and turned many into luke-warm Christians not caring for the truth, but just going with the flow, therefore to make their robes white, they must really suffer for Christ’s sake, and the tribulation will be the ultimate test to see when persecution arises, if that house they built was strong enough to stand.

To wrap it up, Israel still receives their blessing, but others will receive it first.  All win in the end, and the 144,000 are those who laboured for the truth, and hand picked first before the harvest.  They are not picked because of race, but because of the heart.

 

  Matthew 20:10   But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

  Matthew 20:11   And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

  Matthew 20:12   Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

  Matthew 20:13   But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

  Matthew 20:14   Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

  Matthew 20:15   Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

  Matthew 20:16   So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.