You know, I was thinking...

[JohnD]

Hi, Roy.

Jesus is currently on his Father's throne, in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:8 (AV)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I agree 100% that the final heaven / earth situation will be completely different in the resurrection. Until then, however, when we die (our spirits leaving our bodies) we who believe go to be with the Lord.

 

[Pamelasv]

There is some prophecy concerning Jesus somewhere 'before the child knows enough to choose between right and wrong...'  I dont know where that is, but one cannot be guilty of anything if they do not know the difference.  Of course babies go to heaven.  

[Ezra]

There is some prophecy concerning Jesus somewhere 'before the child knows enough to choose between right and wrong...'  I dont know where that is, but one cannot be guilty of anything if they do not know the difference.  Of course babies go to heaven.  

That's Isaiah 7:15,16. Since babies and young children cannot understand that they are sinners by birth and must repent, God has made full provision for their salvation in Christ.  We should always remember that God was in Christ RECONCILING THE WORLD unto Himself, and that the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world. Those who are capable of repenting are commanded to repent (Acts 17:30).  Those who are incapable of repenting are accepted through Christ, who said "suffer [allow] LITTLE CHILDREN, and forbid them not, to come unto me; for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven".

As to speculation regarding children being conceived and born during the Great Tribulation, we really have no Scripture to confirm or deny this, so silence is the only option.

[ghtan]

Acts 15:18 (AV)

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Ephesians 2:10 (AV)

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jeremiah 1:5 (AV)

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Ephesians 1:3–6 (AV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Isaiah 46:9–10 (AV)

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Matthew 25:34 (AV)

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Compare these two translations:

Revelation 13:8 (AV)

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 (NASB95)

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

All these verses taken into consideration are sufficient enough response.

We can in another thread dig deeper into the mind of God if you wish in another thread.

From what I see, the above verses do not say anything about whether a person would or would not be saved in the end - some do not even talk about personal salvation - except perhaps for Rev 13:8 but that has to be read in context and and in conjunction with Rev 3:5 which implies the opposite. But you are right that this is probably not the thread to talk about this topic. I just wanted to know what scripture you depended on for your view.  

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JohnD. 

Hi, Roy.

Jesus is currently on his Father's throne, in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:8 (AV)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I agree 100% that the final heaven / earth situation will be completely different in the resurrection. Until then, however, when we die (our spirits leaving our bodies) we who believe go to be with the Lord.

 

Yes, He is on His Father’s throne - or rather, on His Father’s Dais - but the location of the throne is within the New Jerusalem. That’s where the throne exists. And, the New Jerusalem is somewhere in Space currently being built to house all of God’s children, whether also the children of Israel or once-Gentiles who have become part of the Family through the Messiah Yeshua`.

However, to be falling asleep “absent from the body” in these “soul-ual” (“natural”) bodies we now possess is to be waking up in our “spirit-ual” bodies “present with the Lord.” Since we are “souls” - combinations of our bodies and breaths - a “spirit” (“breath”), if it exists at all apart from the body, would be INCOMPLETE without the body! If we as “spirits” (breaths/winds) go to the New Jerusalem without our bodies, we would be GREATLY disappointed and frustrated, unable to interact with our surroundings! If we could “see” things in the New Jerusalem at all, we could not fully experience them!

No, it makes better sense to agree with the Scriptures:

Ecclesiastes 3:19-21

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
KJV

Luke 23:46

46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
KJV

Ephesians 1:3-14

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
KJV

James 2:26

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
KJV

So, although we are DESTINED to have the INHERITANCE of life eternal through the Resurrection, and we have been SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise, the body without the spirit is DEAD!

[JohnD]

Acts 15:18 (AV)

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Ephesians 2:10 (AV)

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jeremiah 1:5 (AV)

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Ephesians 1:3–6 (AV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Isaiah 46:9–10 (AV)

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Matthew 25:34 (AV)

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Compare these two translations:

Revelation 13:8 (AV)

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 (NASB95)

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

All these verses taken into consideration are sufficient enough response.

We can in another thread dig deeper into the mind of God if you wish in another thread.

From what I see, the above verses do not say anything about whether a person would or would not be saved in the end - some do not even talk about personal salvation - except perhaps for Rev 13:8 but that has to be read in context and and in conjunction with Rev 3:5 which implies the opposite. But you are right that this is probably not the thread to talk about this topic. I just wanted to know what scripture you depended on for your view.  

We are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs. You said, "I just wanted to know what scripture you depended on for your view." 

But more than asking me how I arrived at my belief / opinion, you then critiqued it. Putting me and my opinion / belief on trial. Then you offer your opinion / belief to the contrary:

"From what I see, the above verses do not say anything about whether a person would or would not be saved in the end - some do not even talk about personal salvation - except perhaps for Rev 13:8 but that has to be read in context and and in conjunction with Rev 3:5 which implies the opposite."

...which you offered without qualification of any sort.

The first two verses I quoted alone should have answered your inquiry in full.

[ghtan]

Acts 15:18 (AV)

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Ephesians 2:10 (AV)

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jeremiah 1:5 (AV)

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Ephesians 1:3–6 (AV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Isaiah 46:9–10 (AV)

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Matthew 25:34 (AV)

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Compare these two translations:

Revelation 13:8 (AV)

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 (NASB95)

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

All these verses taken into consideration are sufficient enough response.

We can in another thread dig deeper into the mind of God if you wish in another thread.

From what I see, the above verses do not say anything about whether a person would or would not be saved in the end - some do not even talk about personal salvation - except perhaps for Rev 13:8 but that has to be read in context and and in conjunction with Rev 3:5 which implies the opposite. But you are right that this is probably not the thread to talk about this topic. I just wanted to know what scripture you depended on for your view.  

We are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs. You said, "I just wanted to know what scripture you depended on for your view." 

But more than asking me how I arrived at my belief / opinion, you then critiqued it. Putting me and my opinion / belief on trial. Then you offer your opinion / belief to the contrary:

"From what I see, the above verses do not say anything about whether a person would or would not be saved in the end - some do not even talk about personal salvation - except perhaps for Rev 13:8 but that has to be read in context and and in conjunction with Rev 3:5 which implies the opposite."

...which you offered without qualification of any sort.

The first two verses I quoted alone should have answered your inquiry in full.

Well, since you did take the trouble to list those verses, I thought they deserve a brief comment. But no more than that, because you do not explain how they support your view. ESPECIALLY the first two. What do they have to do with whether a person becomes a believer? It is far from obvious.

[Leonardo Von]

On 10/19/2015 at 9:20 PM, Pamelasv said:

About babies during the time of the wrath of God and the supposed 'rapture'.  Well, since there will be innocent babies born during the time of the antichrist and after, and since I believe, and many others, that babies only go to heaven until a certain age accountablitiy, when they know the difference of right and wrong.  So what is my point ? I forgot already, but I will come back and let you know.  Something about the rapture.  Oh yes....how could God rapture the church before the end times when babies will be born after that yet, and depending on the number of years between the birth and that age of accountability.  So they would have to go to heaven to, but as young children would be hanging around earth yet while the church got to escape. 

Dear sister Pamelasv,

 

Grace and mercy and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

I also already thought very much about this theme and until today I could not reach a definitive conclusion. Nevertheless, one thing I do not have the smaller doubt: the idea that all children will be saved is totally against the Holy Scripture:

 

·        “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4.12).

·        “And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” (2Timothy 3.15).

·        “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,” (2Timothy 1.1).

 

By this excerpts, it is clear that it is impossible to have salvation out of Christ. Unless the individual repents of their sins, converts of their wicked ways and submit completely to Jesus Christ, leaving He controls all his life (Romans 8.14), no one will be saved.

I know that many people question: “but then, what is the situation of who never heard of Jesus? (such as, for example, the fetus, babies, etc.)? To illustrate this, imagine that someone contract a determined type of cancer that it is possible to be cured case the individual ingest a particular type of pill that was discovered there on the other side of the world. If the individual not ingere the pill certainly will die. You can question:

 

•      And if has the individual not money to buy the pill? He will die.

•      And if is the individual unaware of the existence of pill? He will die.

•      And if did the individual buy the pill, but there was error in manufacturing process or was it misplaced? He will die.

•      And if did someone fake the pill the individual bought? He will die.

•      And if is the individual unaware that was cancer due to doctor error? He will die.

 

Even though you consider all situations above an immense injustice, however, it is exactly this that will happen: or the individual ingests the pill, or die. Thinking otherwise: if anyone want to be part of an entity, do you agrees that the one need accept the rules of this institution? Remember that we are entering in the kingdom of the Eternal. Well, all kingdom is constituted of standards: or the person accepts these standards, or is out! And in this regard Paulo is resounding:

 

·        “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1.6-9).

 

Preach salvation that not involves repentance, conversion and total subordination to Christ is to preach a fake, damn gospel!!!

Moreover, let’s think: if all the children were saved, then abortion, which is a heinous crime (brutal murder of an innocent being), would become a heroic act. The mother, for love to Christ and her son, would prefer abort him to ensure their eternal salvation. After all, we all know how difficult it is someone to enter the kingdom of the Eternal. Let’s just only think:

 

·         “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24.13).

 

Not to mention that this would be the most excellent evangelism strategy. Ever thought if all children aborted were straight to the heaven? The more babies a woman believer would bring forth and abort, the more individuals would go to heaven. This way, the heaven would be full of individuals.

 

CONTINUE ON THE NEXT POST...

[Leonardo Von]

On 10/24/2015 at 9:46 PM, Pamelasv said:

There is some prophecy concerning Jesus somewhere 'before the child knows enough to choose between right and wrong...'  I dont know where that is, but one cannot be guilty of anything if they do not know the difference.  Of course babies go to heaven.  

To justify the entrance of all children to heaven, is common use excerpts as:

 

·        “But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.” (Mark 10.14,15).

 

However, think: when the eternal destroyed the land with the flood, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah, He didn't spared the children. All died. That is, the children not escaped from the judgment that fell on the parents.

Similarly, see:

 

·        “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” (1Samuel 15.2,3).

 

Note as everyone should be dead. But what was the fault that such children committed to deserve such brutality? The truth, however, is that it is not the Eternal that is subject to living creatures’ decisions. Instead of this, the Eternal designed the entire universe and its history, and assigned to every living creature the role should play in them so that He and all His good, nice and perfect will (expressed in His Word – Romans 7.6) could be contemplated by all creation.

See:

 

·        “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,” (2Timothy 1.9).

·        “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.” (1Peter 1.2).

 

Based on this and the fact that the Eternal know beforehand those who are His, those who He knows that will go submit themselves to His plan, which will participate in the book of life, the Eternal saves of the abortion and infanticide. So that, the chosen to be aborted and killed in childhood are those who never will convert. And on the occasion of the Last Judgment, it will be manifest to all the full rejection of them to the Messiah and the perfection of judgment of the Eternal on eliminate prematurely of the world children that only would bring more prejudice.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎20‎/‎10‎/‎2015 at 10:20 AM, Pamelasv said:

About babies during the time of the wrath of God and the supposed 'rapture'.  Well, since there will be innocent babies born during the time of the antichrist and after, and since I believe, and many others, that babies only go to heaven until a certain age accountablitiy, when they know the difference of right and wrong.  So what is my point ? I forgot already, but I will come back and let you know.  Something about the rapture.  Oh yes....how could God rapture the church before the end times when babies will be born after that yet, and depending on the number of years between the birth and that age of accountability.  So they would have to go to heaven to, but as young children would be hanging around earth yet while the church got to escape. 

Hi Pamelasv,

Here`s an interesting scripture concerning king David & his son to Bathsheba.

`Then on the seventh day it came to pass that the child died.......So David arose from the ground, washed & anointed himself, & changed his clothes; & he went into the house of the Lord & worshipped....Then his servants said to him, What is this you have done?....So he said "While the child was still alive, I fasted & wept....but now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.` (2Sam. 12: 19 - 23)

As far as the Body of Christ `escaping,` rather it shall be the judgment court that will rule & reign with Christ bringing judgment upon the ungodly & their demonic global government. It is will herald the start of the restoring of order under the rulership of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Marilyn.