The powerless gospel of Calvinism

[Littlelambseativy]

It is strange that some parts of the Bible must be taken literally but not others..even though the are the spoken word of God. True some are metaphoric or parables and others are historical..yet when God gives His word to us in plain language we must then interpret it. There was a post questioning why there are so many denominations........ I think we have an answer. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and others were the first reformers and were led by God to bring about the change from Catholicism...they have fought the fight and won the battle yet men still battle over them....particularly Calvin....I do find it curious...we should do a tenth of what he has done for Protestantism.

[Omegaman 3.0]

You know Littlelambseativy, I like that there are denominations. I like that there are differences, so that we can more easily discern who the genuine are, from the fakes. Not all differences though, but us into one category or another. Being imperfect interpreters of God's word, does mean that we will have differences, but those differences, do not need to divide us. It is clearly no secret, that I am an unashamed (currently at least) post-trib rapturist. Yet, i go to a church, where most people are pre-trib in their outlook, and the main pastor is an amillennial preterist! Thing is, we all love the Lord, and we all recognize our state of being the family of God, and love and serve each other, worship together, hold each other up in prayer, and enjoy fellowship.

To me, denominations, provide a place where it is easier to fit in, be part of a community, and be comfortable in a Christian environment, while at the same time being challenged in my beliefs and accountable for my practices. Differences do not have to divide, and should not. Unity is a muc hbigger thing, than petty differences.

Church, the church universal, Christ's body worldwide, is family. Families have squabbles, but they also have love and loyalty, and work things out an love each other.

[Omegaman 3.0]

No just a small comment on the "Calvinism" aspect of the post, particularly the election/freewill/predestination part:

Free will is not just a simple matter of free agency. It is way more nuanced than that. If by free will we mean that we have an inate ability to choose one thing over another, that is a simple idea, and hard to deny that we have it.

Those who think that 'Calvinists' deny free will, and that God sovereignly directs every thing a person does, removing all choices or decisions, has not talked at length with very many Calvinists. There may be some Calvinists who are that extreme, but I have never met one.

Calvinism no more removes free will from man, than non Calvinists remove salvation by grace as a doctrine. The idea here, is that if you believe, that you have to believe, or that you have to repent, to be saved, then you are believing that it is YOU who is responsible for your salvation, after all, it is you who did the believing and the repenting, that makes it your work, not God's work. 

I do not think that non-Calvinists deny salvation by grace, but some may not have thought it through. Either  

1.God did the saving ( by grace, not works, lest anyone should boast ) or 
2. God does the saving, based on your works (in which case it is not truly grace apart from works) or 
3. You do the saving totally yourself, because you earned your salvation.

Options 2 and 3 are not in scripture.

Here, I think, is the problem. We don't like the idea that we had nothing to do with it. We are by nature, prideful, and we want to save ourselves, or at least partner with God in our salvation. That, I believe, robs God of the credit that only He deserves.

Salvation is simple, God chooses some but not everyone, to believe and inherit salvation but he does not tell us upon what basis, or if there even is a basis. All He tells us is that it is for his own will, pleasure, decision, etc. He also tells us that frankly, it is not our business what he chooses to do with His creation (us included). Those who can accept His sovereignty, are often called Calvinists, a term that I do not find helpful, since Jesus, Paul, Peter and John (to mention a few) all spelled this out long before Calvin did.

We make salvation complicated, when we make salvation out to be due to God's grace plus our actions. Salvation does not result from our actions, our action are the evidence of God's grace in ourh lives.

On the other hand, we confuse the matter, by over simplifying free will, as though it is one thing with a yes or no answer.

It is way more nuanced than that. First off, there are choices. There are choices to choose, but not always an ability to execute the choices.

If you chose to flap you arms and fly like a bird, are you able to? Well, yes, you can make the choice to fly, but . . . you are still powerless to do so.

So right there, you have choice, you have a free will. I do not think a Calvinist would say that you cannot make that choice. He might, however, be skeptical of your ability to carry out your plan to fly like a bird.

The nature of the universe, prevents us from doing everything we might like to do. Wise people, do not choose to do things than cannot be done, 

On the other hand, God can, if He chooses, give you the ability to flap your arms and fly like a bird. That is a difference between true sovereign choice and free will, and the limited type of choices we can make, which are an entirely different category.

Place a steak on a plate in front of a horse, and some straw on a plate in front of a tiger. Is it likely, that these animals will choose to eat what is in front of them? No, not to likely. What if you switch the plates? Different result altogether.

What is the difference between these two scenarios? Well, similar to trying to flap your arms and fly, is has to do with the nature of things. Flying, violates the laws of nature, and to do that, would be super natural or extra natural - outside of the reality of the limitations than nature imposes.

The horse and the tiger, also have a nature. They both have an ability to eat straw or meat, but they will choose in accordance with their natures.

People, after the fall, have a sin nature, sometimes we call this the natural man, as opposed to supernatural, or mankind with a new nature.

When you sin, do you do so by choice? When you stole a cookie from the cookie jar, was your hand moving by some force that you could not fight, or was it that you chose to disobey? Are you, as a fallen human, capable of living sinlessly?

Rhetorical questions of course, we know the answers from our own experiences and they are consistent with scripture as well.

We do not become sinners when we sin, we are already sinners, and because we are we do sin. 

Just as a horse eats straw, and a tiger eats meat, we sin, because that is consistent with our nature.

Did you decide, what clothes you wore today? That was a free choice as well, but, your nature did not restrict that choice, Nothing in you nature really compells you to choose one color over another, or natural materials over synthetics, those sorts of things, our free will is more intact.

Some choices can be made, truly freely, others, not so much.

In sin, we can choose to not lie, this one time, or to not strike out in anger. We can resist taking an item belonging to someone else, but we cannot do it with 100% success, instead we all sin and fall short of the glory of God.

Roman 7:18
I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

2 Tim 2:25
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth

These show it is God, who is active, and we who are unable.

In John 1:12  to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Whose will decided that believers become the children of God . . . is it the will of man and the flesh, or is it of God?

Dozens of verses like these, demonstrate that while we may chose God, and we may love God, we only so so, because He first chose us, and first loved us.

I used to rob God of the credit due Him, I used to think that my decision lead to me salvation,

Now I praise God, that while I was still a sinner, still incapable of choosing Him, understanding Him, or even seeking Him, that He saved me, all on His own, by His choice, though I did not in the least deserve it or offer anything to merit being chosen. It was marvelous to come to that understanding, that He not only did this, before I came to repentance, before I believed, before I was born, but before the earth was even formed. How marvelous is that? Being chosen before all of these things, puts them way outside of the reach, of anything I ever could do as a free will choice, it was done in eternity, before I had a choice.

Did I choose, sure, of course I did, but that was because I was chosen to choose. However, I was in the world, with a nature, that prevented me from choosing God. As Paul described me and you in Romans 8:7:

"because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so"

I was saved, because God chose to give me a new nature. By my free will, I chose to rebel against God, because it was my nature to do so. Then He gave me a new nature, so that consistent with that nature, I would also choose Him, still with free will.

So, it is not that God violates free will, indeed, he frees you from rebellion against Him and enslavement to sin, to a freedom to be able to chose Him, and that does not rule out His sovereign choice of us, nor His predestination for us.

Free will and predestination are not contrary, they are complimentary.

[Qnts2]

3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Yes well, my mistake, I guess I should have consulted you two, instead of making the wild assumptions that come from believing what the Bible says. For example:

  " 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved."

When you see things like the things you quoted, where people have to do something in order to be saved, I think you are missing the point. If salvation, is dependent on looking to a snake, or smearing blood on a post, then it is works based, depending on man's actions, not on Gods grace. It is not that by doing things, that people are saved, it is that the saved, will do things. Those who God has chosen, from the foundation of the world, will respond, because it is God, who opens their eyes and ears, changes their hearts from stone to flesh, and gives them faith to believe. Otherwise, they remain in the class of people, Paul describes in the first paragraph of Roman 8.

I know that I am foolish for actually believing the Bible, maybe I am not as smart as you, but I think it might actually mean what it says!  I almost agree with that chosen group statement though, depending on what you mean by it. To explain, no, God did not choose all who where the descendants of Jacob, to inherit eternal life (for example) - there is no group that is pre-chosen. However, if one believes passages like the one above, then one believes that God chose and predestined individuals, to be adopted and His children, and He did that before the foundation of the world, before anyone could look to Christ for salvation. These people are not a group that was chosen, but all of the individuals that He chose, comprise the 'group' that will inherit eternal life.

This is NOT rocket science brothers, it is just scripture. Some can accept it, some cannot. Fortunately, you do not have to believe in election, to be elected. I do not recommend however, that you get your doctrine from types, and make you interpretation of types more authoritative the the clear language of literal revelation.

Let me start by saying the classic Calvinism is a Christian theology, just as much as classic Arminianism. I have not problem considering both classic Calvinists and classic Arminians brothers in the Lord. I make the exceptions when it comes to hyper-calvinism and hyper-arminianism.

But, I just want to make a comment on something you said. You have assigned the label of 'work' to looking at the brazen serpent. The main place that we get a definition of work is from the OT, since work is forbidden on days of rest. Looking at something is not a work. If it was, people would have needed to blindfold themselves to avoid working on the Sabbath. Thinking is not a work. Believing something is not a work. Reading something is not a work. If reading was a work, the children of Israel could not have read or thought about or believed scriptures on the Sabbath.   

[Omegaman 3.0]

6 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

But, I just want to make a comment on something you said. You have assigned the label of 'work' to looking at the brazen serpent. The main place that we get a definition of work is from the OT, since work is forbidden on days of rest. Looking at something is not a work. If it was, people would have needed to blindfold themselves to avoid working on the Sabbath. Thinking is not a work. Believing something is not a work. Reading something is not a work. If reading was a work, the children of Israel could not have read or thought about scriptures on the Sabbath.   

I am not using the term work as a matter of labor, as in something to be refrained from on the Sabbath.

I am using it as in the distinction of things we do, which are our works, and things God does, His works. Of course we are not saved by works of the law, Calvinists and Armenians agree on that I think.

I am attempting to zero in on what I thing is the focus of Eph 2 - who gets the credit? If God did it, then He does, if we did it, then we can boast.

Thanks for the comment Qnts2

[Ezra]

4 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

But, I just want to make a comment on something you said. You have assigned the label of 'work' to looking at the brazen serpent. The main place that we get a definition of work is from the OT, since work is forbidden on days of rest. Looking at something is not a work. If it was, people would have needed to blindfold themselves to avoid working on the Sabbath. Thinking is not a work. Believing something is not a work. Reading something is not a work. If reading was a work, the children of Israel could not have read or thought about or believed scriptures on the Sabbath.   

Exactly.  "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"  (Acts 16:31) corresponds to Eph 2:8,9. So to claim that rejecting Calvinism leads to salvation by works is false and misleading. Believing is exercising "faith".

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 minute ago, Ezra said:

Exactly.  "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"  (Acts 16:31) corresponds to Eph 2:8,9. So to claim that rejecting Calvinism leads to salvation by works is false and misleading. Believing is exercising "faith".

That is fine, but beleiving, is not something we muster up, not some conclusion we come to becuase we are smart enough to. God gives us the faith, allows us to understand, opens our eyes, give hearing to the deaf, a heart of flesh, freedom from slavery, etc, or . . .   was it you who did that? Personally, I think it is about grace!

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 10/29/2015 at 1:24 PM, InSeasonOut said:

Summary : Since a man can do nothing to be saved or obtain salvation because he is totally depraved (incapable), God through irresistible grace will unconditionally elect the chosen ones because of limited atonement.  Hyper-Calvinists do not win souls because God will save those He chooses no matter what.  Calvinists usually are self-conceited because God specially chose them and not the heathen Arminians

INSANITY - Teaching Calvinism to enlighten a non-Calvinist is absurd because his or her freewill to choose is not valid. A Calvinist is born a Calvinist against his will. I'm not a Calvinist because God predestinated me before the foundation of the world to not be a Calvinist.  I can’t help it!  I'm not an Arminian because I reject it of my own freewill.  I can't help that!   2 Thessalonians 3:1-5 (KJV)

Actually, there are a few good things in your post. You state that, Calvinists do not believe in total depravity, they believe in total inability. That is a clarifying remark, but a little inaccurate. They do believe in total depravity, because that is what total depravity is, it is not that mankind is a bad as it could be, is is just that man, left to his own devices, does not chose God, is not able to, just as the Bible teaches. Man cannot lift himself up, by his own bootstraps, that is why we need a savior.

Hyper-Calvinists do not win souls? Are you certain, that no-one in hundreds of years, has ever come to faith, through the influence of a hyper-calvinist? Where did you find that statistic? Now, certainly, if  hyper-Calvinist thinks that God saves apart from any effort of man, then of course, that hyper-Calvinist will not be very motivated to evangelize, but then you are ascribing the traits of a Hyper-Calvinist, to the actual Calvinist. Calvinists have a high view of scripture, and as such, take Jesus' command to evangelize seriously, and reject hyper-Calvinists as anomalies.

I don't think that you conclusion that a Calvinist is conceited because God chose them, makes not one lick of sense. Calvinists believe that they are sinners, deserving of nothing but Hell, there is no room for conceit at all! We do not have an attitude, that we earned our salvation, not that God chose us for anything good in us. What a nonsensical thing you believe in that one. Also, we do not see Arminians and heathens, lol, just brothers with a difference of opinion. We might wonder about the status of Hyper-Arminians, they same way we think of Hyper-Calvinists as having taking things to ridiculous extremes.

Of course, I think your title is a bit bizarre, at least until you present evidence, that the "Gospel of Calvinism" has produced no fruit. If I had to make a wild guess, I would guess that the likes of a Calvin, or a John Stott, or a Luther, or a R.C.Spoul, will have helped 100 times as many come to Christ, as you will have if you had 10 life times, but who knows!

Thing is, we, you or Calvinsists or Arminians, or unlabled beleivers, do not when people to Christ. It is the Spirit who draws and teaches, those who God has chosen, to those that Christ died for, thorugh the Gospel that we all spread. There is no "Gospel of Calvinism" there is just the gospel.

The Gospel:

9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

      14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”

Our Gospel, is not powerless:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

We preach, and we plant seeds, and we water, but God gives the increase. Those of us who preach the Gospel, are just tools, that God uses. Looking at a newly built home, a hammer does not get to say, "I built that", it is the work of the Carpenter.

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

That is fine, but beleiving, is not something we muster up, not some conclusion we come to becuase we are smart enough to. God gives us the faith, allows us to understand, opens our eyes, give hearing to the deaf, a heart of flesh, freedom from slavery, etc, or . . .   was it you who did that? Personally, I think it is about grace!

You seem to be forgetting that grace works through (1) the power of the Gospel and (2) the power of the Holy Spirit. So "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom 10:17).

[enoob57]

It is clearly shown to us this way in the Scripture:
Ge 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
KJV
This does not function in the doctrine of total depravity.... as every child born finds this true
within them. Their nature will choose sin and as this child progresses in these choices into
adulthood... Choice is evident by God Himself in guarding the tree of life!