The powerless gospel of Calvinism

[Omegaman 3.0]

5 minutes ago, Ezra said:

You seem to be forgetting that grace works through (1) the power of the Gospel and (2) the power of the Holy Spirit. So "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom 10:17).

Ezra, actually, I do not think that I am forgetting that at all!

As I see it, God chooses some to be His own. They in turn will hear the Gospel, or come to faith by some means of God's choosing, perhaps even by direct revelation from the Lord Himself, as in the case of Saul of Tarsus (who by the way later pointed out that he himself was set apart from the womb).

So, there we are believers in Christ, chosen in him from before the foundations of the world (certainly you would not dare deny that verbage) are to preach the gospel to every creature. In doing so,  people will hear, and arrive at faith. However, not everyone who hears, does arrive at faith, only some.

The some who do get theierfaith from hearing the word of God, do so because God has chosen them to that. There is nothing inconsistent in that scenario, in terms of logic, nor in contradiction to the word of God.

Fact is, the Bible says, we are chosen, not said once, though once is enough, but over and over.

Fact is, we who are believers, will be saved.

Fact is, the typical way that happens, is through hearing the gospel.

I am not sure, why that is difficult for people to grasp, or why it was even for me to grasp, but, apparently it is. For me, it is no longer hard to accept, now I cannot for the life of me, see how I missed it for so long, I am a little embarrassed by that, to tell you the truth. I hope for you that one day, you will understand, because it has added a dimension to God's love, how extreme it is, that I never fully understood before, and it has added to my joy.

You might be amazed to learn, how simple many things in the Bible are to accept, and even embrace, once you can truly understand, the under-emphasized doctrine of the sovereignty of God. It is an eye opener. 

Might sound condescending, and I do not mean it that way, but I am praying for you brother (only that God will have His will in your life), and I suspect, you would not want me to do otherwise.

[enoob57]

4 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Ezra, actually, I do not think that I am forgetting that at all!

As I see it, God chooses some to be His own. They in turn will hear the Gospel, or come to faith by some means of God's choosing, perhaps even by direct revelation from the Lord Himself, as in the case of Saul of Tarsus (who by the way later pointed out that he himself was set apart from the womb).

So, there we are believers in Christ, chosen in him from before the foundations of the world (certainly you would not dare deny that verbage) are to preach the gospel to every creature. In doing so,  people will hear, and arrive at faith. However, not everyone who hears, does arrive at faith, only some.

The some who do get theierfaith from hearing the word of God, do so because God has chosen them to that. There is nothing inconsistent in that scenario, in terms of logic, nor in contradiction to the word of God.

Fact is, the Bible says, we are chosen, not said once, though once is enough, but over and over.

Fact is, we who are believers, will be saved.

Fact is, the typical way that happens, is through hearing the gospel.

I am not sure, why that is difficult for people to grasp, or why it was even for me to grasp, but, apparently it is. For me, it is no longer hard to accept, now I cannot for the life of me, see how I missed it for so long, I am a little embarrassed by that, to tell you the truth. I hope for you that one day, you will understand, because it has added a dimension to God's love, how extreme it is, that I never fully understood before, and it has added to my joy.

You might be amazed to learn, how simple many things in the Bible are to accept, and even embrace, once you can truly understand, the under-emphasized doctrine of the sovereignty of God. It is an eye opener. 

Might sound condescending, and I do not mean it that way, but I am praying for you brother (only that God will have His will in your life), and I suspect, you would not want me to do otherwise.

If it were simple you wouldn't have to be changing the words of the Bible to fit your simple....

[Marilyn C]

I like the picture of a door. On the outside it says `Whosoever` & then when you go inside you read on the other side of the door, `Chosen in Him.` That is so clear to me & shows the both aspects of God`s calling - the `whosoevers` & then they are the `chosen` because of the foreknowledge of God.

Marilyn.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Wow enoob, this is quite unusual. 

You have made two posts in a row, that I do not even understand what you are saying!

Can you try restating the tree of life one, I don't get at all! Elaborate a bit, if you will!

Also, if you could explain or show me, how I am changing the words of the Bible. I don't require a retraction or an apology etc, I don't care about those things, but I do require you to prove your accusation, instead of making vague statements that I cannot respond to.

 

[hmbld]

33 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 

That is fine, but beleiving, is not something we muster up, not some conclusion we come to becuase we are smart enough to. God gives us the faith, allows us to understand, opens our eyes, give hearing to the deaf, a heart of flesh, freedom from slavery, etc, or . . .   was it you who did that? Personally, I think it is about grace!

 

 

 

As I see it, God chooses some to be His own. They in turn will hear the Gospel, or come to faith by some means of God's choosing, perhaps even by direct revelation from the Lord Himself, as in the case of Saul of Tarsus (who by the way later pointed out that he himself was set apart from the womb).

So, there we are believers in Christ, chosen in him from before the foundations of the world (certainly you would not dare deny that verbage) are to preach the gospel to every creature. In doing so,  people will hear, and arrive at faith. However, not everyone who hears, does arrive at faith, only some.

The some who do get theierfaith from hearing the word of God, do so because God has chosen them to that. There is nothing inconsistent in that scenario, in terms of logic, nor in contradiction to the word of God.

Fact is, the Bible says, we are chosen, not said once, though once is enough, but over and over.

 

This, I agree with, as it is not of our own we come to believing, but faith is given to us, yet the aspect of free will confuses the issue for me, as God does choose us, yet allows us free will, so adding in the verse that God wills everyone to come to Him, well, i never find the end of this circle lol!

[enoob57]

28 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Wow enoob, this is quite unusual. 

You have made two posts in a row, that I do not even understand what you are saying!

Can you try restating the tree of life one, I don't get at all! Elaborate a bit, if you will!

Also, if you could explain or show me, how I am changing the words of the Bible. I don't require a retraction or an apology etc, I don't care about those things, but I do require you to prove your accusation, instead of making vague statements that I cannot respond to.

 

Total depravity is the baseline of theological support to the doctrine of Calvinism.
Yet after spiritually dying in sin God reports Adam as knowing both good and evil
as God The Father, Son and Spirit know ... to prevent the eternal sealing in this
state God removes the ability to partake of the tree of life. Showing that man could
choose life but only in a sealing of his deadness! God now would take 4000 years
to show man what his deadness looks like and in the fullness of that time God
sent His Son to reinstate a path back to Spiritual life through Him... it has always
been about choice created in His image and God's election is based on foreknowledge
undefined in Scripture!

Words altered by Calvinist doctrine:
an excerpt from Dave Hunt's book

A Strained And Unwarranted Redefinition Of Words
This is done by redefining certain words and phrases such as "world," "whosoever," "any,"
"all men" and even "sinners" to mean only the elect. For example, Paul's statement that
"Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" (1 Ti 1:15) seems on its face to mean that
His desire was for all sinners to be saved. That understanding would, of course, refute
Calvinism. Therefore, the word "sinners" is redefined to mean only "the elect among sinners."
(from What Love Is This? Copyright © 2002 by Dave Hunt.)

[hmbld]

41 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

It is clearly shown to us this way in the Scripture:
Ge 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
KJV
This does not function in the doctrine of total depravity.... as every child born finds this true
within them. Their nature will choose sin and as this child progresses in these choices into
adulthood... Choice is evident by God Himself in guarding the tree of life!

 

I also am having trouble following what this means, I've read it several times, maybe its been too long since I've routinely read your posts lol.  Need the practice.  Good seeing you again noob!

[hmbld]

3 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

Total depravity is the baseline of theological support to the doctrine of Calvinism.
Yet after spiritually dying in sin God reports Adam as knowing both good and evil
as God The Father, Son and Spirit know ... to prevent the eternal sealing in this
state God removes the ability to partake of the tree of life. Showing that man could
choose life but only in a sealing of his deadness! God now would take 4000 years
to show man what his deadness looks like and in the fullness of that time God
sent His Son to reinstate a path back to Spiritual life through Him... it has always
been about choice created in His image and God's election is based on foreknowledge
undefined in Scripture!

Words altered by Calvinist doctrine:
an excerpt from Dave Hunt's book

A Strained And Unwarranted Redefinition Of Words
This is done by redefining certain words and phrases such as "world," "whosoever," "any,"
"all men" and even "sinners" to mean only the elect. For example, Paul's statement that
"Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" (1 Ti 1:15) seems on its face to mean that
His desire was for all sinners to be saved. That understanding would, of course, refute
Calvinism. Therefore, the word "sinners" is redefined to mean only "the elect among sinners."
(from What Love Is This? Copyright © 2002 by Dave Hunt.)

Surely God does desire all sinners to come to Him?  Yet once again, if man is given free will, than depending on how you understand "the elect among sinners" could mean those that choose Him?  Again, in my mind it seems like a circle where I can't get everything to line up lol.  And based on all the discussions on this, I may not be the only one.  

[enoob57]

Just now, hmbld said:

Surely God does desire all sinners to come to Him?  Yet once again, if man is given free will, than depending on how you understand "the elect among sinners" could mean those that choose Him?  Again, in my mind it seems like a circle where I can't get everything to line up lol.  And based on all the discussions on this, I may not be the only one.  

no one has! We are to stand upon election based on God's foreknowledge undefined and
individual choice based on faith created in the individual from intake of God's Word both
creative and written... thanks for the welcome brother of mine!!! Love, Steven

[hmbld]

59 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 

As I see it, God chooses some to be His own. They in turn will hear the Gospel, or come to faith by some means of God's choosing, perhaps even by direct revelation from the Lord Himself, as in the case of Saul of Tarsus (who by the way later pointed out that he himself was set apart from the womb).

 

Still trying to understand, now I agree scripture states we are chosen.  And God's will is for all to come to Him, correct?  But yet, He does not override our free will, or are you saying in some (or all) cases He does?  Now, as in the case of Saul, and I would venture to guess many others (if not all, lol), the direct revelation is pretty hard to ignore, yet even though it is impossible to ignore God, it is not impossible to reject Him, as it requires dying to self to choose Him.  You mentioned the soveriegnty of God, and maybe I misunderstood, but it led me to believe your saying God does over ride our free will.  In my personal life, and those I can observe around me, I see what looks like God going to extreme, sometimes wondrous, and sometimes heartbreaking steps to get our attention, yet I'm not convinced He is removing our free will.  

Anyway, this thread has reminded me that I wanted to get in depth in a study of God's characteristics, I am sure it has been discussed here but i've never been able to get the search function to work for me.  Thanks for your time, and the good reading,