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Sin is not imputed when there is no law


Pamelasv

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Well, I have my notions, but rather than expound upon them, why not look at a few commentaries, written by people far more qualified than I, and see what you think after that?

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/2-12.htm

again, I suggest, read the whole chapter, not just the 2 verses

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4 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Well, I have my notions, but rather than expound upon them, why not look at a few commentaries, written by people far more qualified than I, and see what you think after that?

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/2-12.htGUI 

&&&&&&&&&

I prefere to have a simple input from you, and without judging, 

Just like we are on the bus fifty years ago and we start a conversation, 

No fear , of judgement 

 

 

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On 11/21/2015 at 8:45 AM, Pamelasv said:

1 Romans 5:13

'for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.' 

Well, what do you think of this?  I am thinking of God judging all those nations who didn't have the law.  Not sure what he means by this. 

 

On 11/21/2015 at 9:43 AM, thereselittleflower said:

They were not judged according to the Mosaic Law, but according to the natural law.   Sodom and Gomorrah broke God's natural law and were judged.

Dear sisters Pamelasv and Thereselittleflower,

 

Grace and mercy and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

·        “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.” (Romans 5.12,13).

 

What this passage means is that when there is no law, there is no knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), that is to say, no one realizes that such thinking, feeling, and behavior does nothing but keep people separated from each other.

But this does not change the fact that sin is present producing its fruits. Then the people in the time of Noah, the tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah, Canaan, etc., though they did not know the law of the Eternal, nonetheless the sin cease to be iniquity (see Genesis 15:16).

For example, if someone drinks poison, they will get sick and even die, even if they do not know about the poison.

The wage of sin is death (Romans 6:23), even when the individual is not aware that he is sinning.

Hence the Holy Scripture says:

 

·        “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8.32).

·        “This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.” (Ephesians 4.17-19).

 

Do you realize now the value of truth? Without truth, the individual remains imprisoned in ignorance and thus completely separated from the life of the Eternal and therefore condemned to do and suffer evil (see Galatians 6: 7-9).

Hence the earnest exhortation of the Holy Scripture to know the Eternal and His will:

 

·        “Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth. For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.” (Oséias 6.3,6).

·        “Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.” (Psalms 1.1,2).

 

Though the Eternal pardon the times of ignorance of those who repent of sins and turn from evil ways to follow Him, while this day does not come, those who sin without law will perish without law:

 

·        “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;” (Romans 2.12).

 

May Jesus help us to know His will with accuracy so that we do not spoil our lives and those of others.

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 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.” (Romans 5.12,13)

Imputed: Theology. to attribute (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to a person orpersons vicariously; ascribe as derived from another.

Doesn't that Romans verse then say we'd be better off if there was no law to begin with?

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The book of Romans really has to be read through the first 8 chapters or so.  It is developing logically that no one is worthy of salvation and all are sinful, Jews and those without God alike.  All are in need of a Savior, and of God's grace.  Even the good people fall short of God's requirement of righteousness.

Concerning those who are without Christ, whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life:

Rom 2:6  He will render to each one according to his works: Rom 2:7  to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; Rom 2:8  but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. Rom 2:9  There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, Rom 2:10  but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. Rom 2:11  For God shows no partiality.

Rom 2:12  For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. Rom 2:13  For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Rom 2:14  For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. Rom 2:15  They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them  Rom 2:16  on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Rom 3:9  What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, Rom 3:10  as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; Rom 3:11  no one understands; no one seeks for God. Rom 3:12  All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Rom 3:21  But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— Rom 3:22  the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: Rom 3:23  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Rom 3:24  and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Rom 3:25  whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. Rom 3:26  It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

So we come to the verse in question.  Robertson's Word Studies has in interesting perspective:

Until the law (achri nomou). Until the Mosaic law. Sin was there before the Mosaic law, for the Jews were like Gentiles who had the law of reason and conscience (Rom 2:12-16), but the coming of the law increased their responsibility and their guilt (Rom 2:9).

Sin is not imputed (hamartia de ouk ellogeitai). Present passive indicative of late verb ellogaō (̇eō) from en and logos, to put down in the ledger to one’s account, examples in inscription and papyri.

When there is no law (mē ontos nomou). Genitive absolute, no law of any kind, he means. There was law before the Mosaic law. But what about infants and idiots in case of death? Do they have responsibility? Surely not. The sinful nature which they inherit is met by Christ’s atoning death and grace. No longer do men speak of “elect infants.”

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Paul goes to great lengths to explain that sin is not simply something we do but rather something that is in us.

He explains it in Romans 7.  He concluded that the law of God was good.  The law told him not to covet.  He agreed with the law yet he soon found that their was something inside his flesh with him that brought him into subjection to break the law and covet.  He concluded that it was sin in his flesh and not himself that did the evil.  Because he did the things against his own will.

Once a person gets an understanding of what sin is then it clears up a whole lot about the scriptures, legalism and even the lawless one.

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On 11/21/2015 at 5:45 AM, Pamelasv said:

1 Romans 5:13

'for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.' 

Well, what do you think of this?  I am thinking of God judging all those nations who didn't have the law.  Not sure what he means by this. 

Sin and temptation entered into the world for the first time when Adam ate of the fruit from the forbidden tree he was warned not to eat of it, and the day he did he would surely die, being a physical death.  Both disobedience (sin, breaking God's law) and death entered into the world from the time of the fall in the garden up until the Law had even been given yet by Moses.  From the fall in the garden up unto the Law had been given, both sin and death had entered the world and was abounding, growing more and more increasing in this world.

But during that time period up until the Law of Moses was given sin could not be imputed within a person because there was no Law in which to hold a person accountable for there sin they committed.  No one knew what sin was until the law was given by Moses telling us what sin was and it's consequences.  Once the Law of Moses was put in place then people could be held accountable for their sins as they follow and practiced what was in the Law of Moses.  When the law of Moses was then put in place all one had to do to obtain righteous or have it imputed to your account was to keep and practice what was in the Law of Moses.

Abraham believed God by faith and it was imputed unto him as righteousness.  But you have to remember that God made a covenant with Abraham before the Law or old covenant ever came into existence.  Since God had a covenant with Abraham by faith before the Law was given.  The Old Covenant Law did not disannul the covenant promise God made with Abraham.  It was through Abraham's seed (Jesus Christ) would come into the world as Saviour bringing in a new and better covenant with better promises and all one has to do is call on the name of the Lord and believe by faith and the righteousness of Christ will be imputed unto us as with faithful Abraham.

The thing was that the Law of Moses never could make one righteous on the inside nor take away the guilt of sin.  The Law was our Teacher until Jesus was born into this world to shed his blood on the cross as he gave (sacrificed) his own body to buy us back from the curse of the Law.  The old covenant with it's laws was never meant to make us righteous within.  There was no law that one could make up to follow and practice outwardly that could ever make one righteous by faith for it takes Christ to imput the righteousness of God within our hearts and take the guilt of our sins away. 

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Don't we have to believe in sin first before we can accept we're not worthy of living because of it? 

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7 hours ago, Jewels7 said:

Don't we have to believe in sin first before we can accept we're not worthy of living because of it? 

Yes, but  you have to know, what is sin?...to determine your guilt or innocence.  Let me say also that we all have fallen short of God's righteousness and even at our best our righteousness is as filthy rages.

There were no laws given except one in the garden which was not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  Of course Adam disobeyed that one law, thus death passed upon all men that would ever be born into this world from that time forward.  Everyone born into this world would also be born with a sin nature dead spiritually toward God a slave to sin.

Adam was expelled from the garden of Eden and it's location is now unknown.  From the fall in the garden up until the time of the Old Covenant law of Moses was given.  There were no laws of God given in which to obey or disobey.

When the law of Moses was finally given then there was knowledge of what sin was and if you broke God's laws you became guilty of sin.  The law became our schoolmaster showing and teaching mankind what sin was.

Hence from the time from Adam in the garden up till the time of the giving of the law of Moses.  There was no law in which to be guilty as scripture is teaching in....

Romans 5:13 - for until the law...sin was in the world...but sin is not imputed...when there is no law.

In other words sin was already in this world before the law of Moses was given from Adam diobedience.  Because there was no laws given of any kind for mankind to obey or disobey, from the particular time period from Adam unto the giving of the Law of Moses.  Sin could not be charged against them in any way if they didn't have the law telling them what was sin.  All that changed when God gave to Moses the very laws the children of Israel were to obey.  If they then disobeyed then it would be charged to their account.

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On 11/21/2015 at 4:45 AM, Pamelasv said:

1 Romans 5:13

'for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.' 

Well, what do you think of this?  I am thinking of God judging all those nations who didn't have the law.  Not sure what he means by this. 

YHWH told HIS people that was the reason for the TORAH -  The TORAH separated HIS people from ALL the other nations,  the gentile heathen who it is written in the NEW TESTAMENT were without YHWH and without hope in the world.

Still,  it was nations without hope - as there were individuals, perhaps thousands, perhaps millions,  who turned to YHWH out of the gentile heathen nation they were in,  and came to YHWH (first in their heart?), then pursued YHWH CREATOR by seeking out HIS people and eagerly learning TORAH LIFE from them, by faith seeking to do what YHWH says to do through the instructions HE gave HIS PEOPLE.

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