SavedOnebyGrace Posted December 21, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,056 Content Per Day: 15.13 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2015 2 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said: We may disagree on the mater, but I am simply trying to correct misunderstanding, not try to convince he is ever infallible . But if we are going to talk about it, we should be talking about the same thing, or there is no possibility of understanding each other. Okay, make a simple statement about what misunderstanding you're trying to correct and I'll either agree or disagree, and we can leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted December 21, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.70 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2015 1 minute ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: Okay, make a simple statement about what misunderstanding you're trying to correct and I'll either agree or disagree, and we can leave it at that. The misunderstanding seems to be that people think that because he is the Pope then anything he says is infallible and we have to accept it. This is not true. He can only be infallible in very specific circumstance and those occur very rarely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted December 21, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,056 Content Per Day: 15.13 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2015 1 minute ago, thereselittleflower said: The misunderstanding seems to be that people think that because he is the Pope then anything he says is infallible and we have to accept it. This is not true. He can only be infallible in very specific circumstance and those occur very rarely. And my point would be that he is never infallible. To say he is ever infallible would deny his free will. I presume you believe in free will. (I was a Calvinist not too long ago.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted December 21, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.70 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2015 Just now, Saved.One.by.Grace said: And my point would be that he is never infallible. To say he is ever infallible would deny his free will. I presume you believe in free will. (I was a Calvinist not too long ago.) Oh I definitely believe in free will. Sounds like you made a pretty big shift in how you see things when you left being a Calvnist. I guess I don't see this taking away free will anymore than the writers of scripture had their free will taken away when they wrote the scriptures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted December 21, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.88 Content Count: 43,795 Content Per Day: 6.21 Reputation: 11,243 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2015 1 hour ago, thereselittleflower said: You wonder why I don't answer every question? It's because of the way I am treated here by others. I am accused of promoting Catholicsm simply because I answer questions, so I am put in a catch 22. And you asked a question - then a minute later berate me for not answering it yet? So we are very, very clear. I am not promoting Catholicism. I am simply answering your question. Three conditions must be met before we know the Pope has spoken infallibly: The subject matter must be on faith and morals. He must be speaking "ex-cathedara" meaning "from the chair" of the office he occupies. He must be intending to speak infallibly and that intention is communicated. As such, this means such infallible proclamations happen very infrequently - even rarely. I see a question that puts a false choice in front of me to answer. It assumes that what I and someone else says is actually different when they aren't. Both the source referred to and I say the same thing. The Pope is not personally infallible. To be personally infallible means everything you say is infallible. That simply is not true of anyone. So to illustrate this point I asked a question: Were the Apostles personally infallible simply because the Holy Spirit taught truth infallibly through them? I "berated" you for not answering someone else's question except with a question. Its a pattern Ive noticed. Others have noticed too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken Posted December 21, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,379 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2015 8 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said: Oh I definitely believe in free will. Sounds like you made a pretty big shift in how you see things when you left being a Calvnist. I guess I don't see this taking away free will anymore than the writers of scripture had their free will taken away when they wrote the scriptures. All of creation is fallible. The only perfection is found in the creator and His Son, who is our savior, Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted December 21, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.70 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2015 27 minutes ago, ayin jade said: I "berated" you for not answering someone else's question except with a question. Its a pattern Ive noticed. Others have noticed too. jade, no one has to answer every question put to them. I explained my response. If that is unacceptable to you then so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken Posted December 21, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,379 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2015 12 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said: jade, no one has to answer every question put to them. I explained my response. If that is unacceptable to you then so be it. So you do not have an answer. God bless you sis ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted December 21, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,056 Content Per Day: 15.13 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2015 47 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said: Oh I definitely believe in free will. Sounds like you made a pretty big shift in how you see things when you left being a Calvnist. I guess I don't see this taking away free will anymore than the writers of scripture had their free will taken away when they wrote the scriptures. Yes. The shift from Calvinist to Free Will is very recent. It was something said on another forum that got me to thinking. And then, all of the sudden out of nowhere, God shows me a passage in Job. I didn't have a Bible with me but I remembered the passage quite well. Anyway, that's a discussion for another time and place. We are imperfect beings. No matter how hard we try, we will make mistakes. We will make mistakes because we have free will. If we didn't have free will, we could correctly and perfectly translate the Bible by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The monks who painstakingly copied the bible before the printing press strived for perfection. Were they not guided by the same Holy Spirit? Yet for all their prayers and efforts, no two manuscripts are exactly the same. I am reminded of the image of monks copying as depicted in the movie The Name of the Rose. Such conditions were harsh but yet when compared to the earliest fragments, the Bible was free of errors except the occassional double line and/or spelling mistakes. We can trust the Bible; man, not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted December 21, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.70 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2015 13 minutes ago, AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken said: So you do not have an answer. God bless you sis ! The question requires a choice where there is no choice. The question is like asking someone to choose: Is the sky full of air or is it blue? How would you answer that question? I elaborated on my response: I see a question that puts a false choice in front of me to answer. It assumes that what I and someone else says is actually different when they aren't. Both the source referred to and I say the same thing. There is no either/or. It is both/and. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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