gdemoss Posted December 12, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted December 12, 2015 33 minutes ago, Kan said: I have never heard that before, but I'll consider it and look for it, if you can show me a text or two, please do. If this was the case then the beginning of Satan's fall was to cause the demise of human beings. If he was to cause others to fall, would he not have been in sin before that? He would have been Sin, bearing that name, because he was the first. The one spoken of to Cain when God said Sin wanted to have dominion over him. The timing of the war in heaven is debatable in my mind so I don't hold to a position of Satan being kicked out of heaven permanently from the beginning as some others do. There is a reason Christ had to ascend and begin to rule and reign. We war against principalities and powers, rulers of darkness in high places and who am I to say that those high places are not in heaven? The prince (image) of the power of the air as it is written of him also. The god of this world. What is the image of the power of the air? Is it not lightening? Did he not fall like lightening to the ground? There is much written about him and his devices in scripture. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Satan was a very gifted angel. He even has the ability to enter into people as he did Judas. I am still learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted December 12, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,043 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,788 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 12, 2015 8 hours ago, Kan said: I thought it was when they ate the fruit, that they were disqualified to judge, and not the other way around? While they now would have seen the evil side (to some extent not realized until many painful years later) But yes, the gospel would enable them to be judges one day, praise God. how could they judge if they didn't know good from evil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted December 12, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,065 Content Per Day: 7.97 Reputation: 21,395 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted December 12, 2015 1 hour ago, other one said: how could they judge if they didn't know good from evil... I think this is the a point of reasoning... in the eternity of past before God created-> evil did not exist so judgmentwas not necessary or the structure of its exist. It is written Tit 1:15 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. KJV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted December 12, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 12, 2015 8 hours ago, other one said: how could they judge if they didn't know good from evil... 7 hours ago, enoob57 said: I think this is the a point of reasoning... in the eternity of past before God created-> evil did not exist so judgmentwas not necessary or the structure of its exist. It is written Tit 1:15 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. KJV That's it. Remember the devil told Eve that if she ate the fruit then she would "know good and evil" but God had already told them what was good and evil, so they already knew enough to make a judgement about it, otherwise they could not have been guilty of sinning. Jesus never sinned and had a clear understanding of what was good and what was evil, as a man He was a capable judge of heaven and the earth in all matters concerning men and angels. It follows that righteousness, rather than sin, gives the gift of judgement. The serpent told a lie about judgement. Sin blinds its victims, and so eating of the forbidden tree, caused Adam and Eve to go into denial "The woman made me do it"- "the serpent made me do it." They could not admit responsibility or reality. They hid themselves from their loving Father. That is not a sign of sanity. They covered themselves with fig leaves - that is another sign of poor judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted December 12, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 12, 2015 10 hours ago, gdemoss said: He would have been Sin, bearing that name, because he was the first. The one spoken of to Cain when God said Sin wanted to have dominion over him. The timing of the war in heaven is debatable in my mind so I don't hold to a position of Satan being kicked out of heaven permanently from the beginning as some others do. There is a reason Christ had to ascend and begin to rule and reign. We war against principalities and powers, rulers of darkness in high places and who am I to say that those high places are not in heaven? The prince (image) of the power of the air as it is written of him also. The god of this world. What is the image of the power of the air? Is it not lightening? Did he not fall like lightening to the ground? There is much written about him and his devices in scripture. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Satan was a very gifted angel. He even has the ability to enter into people as he did Judas. I am still learning. The devil is the "prince of this world" and power of the air - which is another way of saying he is powerless, as Paul said I fight, but not as one who beats the air... we are dealing with principalities and powers, rather than the flesh. Wickedness in high places is something Paul says we deal with, so it is speaking of earthly powers, corruption in rule, not just politics, but nearly all human relationships where inequality raises its ugly head. As for the power of lightning, there is no doubt that he and his hosts play with the elements of nature to cause havoc and destruction. See Job 1:16, 19, people thought that fire was raining down from God, See Rev 13:13. and a great wind which tore down a house (made of stone in those days) and killed all the occupants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted December 12, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,043 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,788 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 12, 2015 17 minutes ago, Kan said: That's it. Remember the devil told Eve that if she ate the fruit then she would "know good and evil" but God had already told them what was good and evil, so they already knew enough to make a judgement about it, otherwise they could not have been guilty of sinning. Jesus never sinned and had a clear understanding of what was good and what was evil, as a man He was a capable judge of heaven and the earth in all matters concerning men and angels. It follows that righteousness, rather than sin, gives the gift of judgement. The serpent told a lie about judgement. Sin blinds its victims, and so eating of the forbidden tree, caused Adam and Eve to go into denial "The woman made me do it"- "the serpent made me do it." They could not admit responsibility or reality. They hid themselves from their loving Father. That is not a sign of sanity. They covered themselves with fig leaves - that is another sign of poor judgement. i totally disagree with your assessment of thier actions. The fact that they realized they were naked should show that they had gained something after eating the fruit.... hiding is simply a normal response.... passing on the reasoning behind the act is an acknowledgment of knowing it was evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted December 12, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 12, 2015 2 minutes ago, other one said: i totally disagree with your assessment of thier actions. I can accept that, and it is all related to our subject, but what arguments did Satan use with the angels to get a rebellion going? Are his words to Eve a reflection of his overall sentiments in heaven? If so what are they? What did Satan insinuate about God that caused a massive disaffection? We should be able to know this by the themes found in the battle between good and evil on earth, as recorded in the circumstances presented in Biblical accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted December 12, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,043 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,788 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 12, 2015 5 minutes ago, Kan said: I can accept that, and it is all related to our subject, but what arguments did Satan use with the angels to get a rebellion going? Are his words to Eve a reflection of his overall sentiments in heaven? If so what are they? What did Satan insinuate about God that caused a massive disaffection? We should be able to know this by the themes found in the battle between good and evil on earth, as recorded in the circumstances presented in Biblical accounts. I know you would not accept my views on that subject.... you would not approve of thier origin.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted December 12, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 12, 2015 18 hours ago, Kan said: True, the devil's problem became ours, and because of Christ, He made our problem His. What was Satan's original problem? What was his case or rebellion about? Pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted December 13, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 13, 2015 12 hours ago, other one said: I know you would not accept my views on that subject.... you would not approve of their origin.... I'm glad you know me. I'm sure you understood me to say that I don't agree with you, but that I accept that you have a different view, and therefor accept you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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