The Time of Testing

[SINNERSAVED]

8 minutes ago, Kan said:

I believe that this scenario belongs to a time of revolution in which Christianity will be generally in trouble, but as the Christian world rises above that time of trouble, then the religious injunctions will begin, which involves the mark of the beast. 

It is possible to avoid this previous persecution, as it does not directly apply to the elect, who will see the testing time, and they will also avoid death altogether, and be alive when God ends the world.

we pray always to be able to escape all these things, and we also pray for wisdom, God hears our prayers and thoughts and knows our hearts are about him.

[SINNERSAVED]

12 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

That was really a vague yes or no.  Who would you relate to; Stephen or those under the Altar.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I gave you a answer and extra, yes...yes...yes,,,

you are not reading what I am putting down, my brother. I am telling you my response ,to you with love,

if anything, its about understanding, I know what you are saying ,and I know what you have stated,

but you need to get scripture to back what you believe,  to make your point for many of the scriptures you could use, cannot be applied for it has to be at the right timing of the scripture, to complete  what it is saying,   

and I don't want you to give up now, I answered you , so prove to me how you figured out that you get a pass on a pre trib rapture,

because I don't see it in the bible, ,,its your move.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

There is nothing in this vs. that suggests the "hour of testing" is the tribulation, and for sure nothing in that vs. suggests the pre-trib rapture. If the pre-trib rapture takes all the Christians out of this world, tell me what the purpose is to test sinners?

That is why you can't take Scripture out of context. The entire paragraph, Revelation 7-13, is the letter to the Church at Philadelphia, the church of today. Also, since all believers will be taken in the Rapture, the only people left on the planet will be the lost. There will be millions who thought they were saved but were not or had friends and family who were raptured. These people's hearts will not have yet been hardened and will have a final chance to accept GOD's solution to their sin problem. Question; what do you think the purpose of this "testing" is for? Do you think it is so that GOD can see if one's faith is real? Or is it to show people just how real their faith is? Does not GOD already know the beginning from the end? Does HE not already know who is HIS and who is not?

 

10 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

we know what that verse states , but that does not give you the free pass you are looking for, you are wrong, and you need more then that to prove that

this tells you about how you get on a free pass ,pre trib rapture and you are out of here, you cannot stay on this same scripture and hold  your ground , its not even referring to what you are saying, you are assuming and wishing it to be the answer, it is not what scripture is saying. try again,

scripture interprets scripture, this we know for a fact, you need scripture to make this scripture truth, ,but it does not state in the first place anything to do with what you are saying,

This is a bogus statement. Christians who believe in the Promise of Christ to save us from this hour of testing don't think of this as a get out of jail free card. We suffer trials and tribulations, we answer to kings and princes now. The trails that Christ is referring to is the end times tribulation. GOD doesn't need you or me to hang around and be a witness for HIM during the Tribulation. It is pure ignorance to repeat the tired and worn out statement that belief in the promised pre-trib rapture is a hope for a get out of jail free card or a license to sin, and a delusion of grandeur to believe that GOD will need or even want you to be around to "help" or serve him on Earth during the end-times. The Church are the Sons and Daughters of GOD, co-heirs with Christ; priests and kings.

Are the Saints of Revelation 7:9-17 the Church? They are from every nation, tribe, people and language so they are of both Jewish and Gentile origin. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, so they’re saved believers. They will serve God day and night in His Temple, but are not called priests, and they have no other responsibilities so they are not Kings, so they are not the Church.

In Rev. 7:14 one of the elders tells John they have come out of the Great Tribulation, but the English translation is misleading. The Greek word translated “out of” literally means out of both the time and place of the event being referenced, in this case the Great Tribulation. This means they will have been martyred during the Seal judgments. According to the pre-wrath view the seal judgments are the Great Tribulation. But the Greek language of Rev. 7 says they’ll be martyred before the Great Tribulation, which in a chronological reading of the Book of Revelation begins on Earth in Rev. 13.  So for these reasons the martyrs of Rev. 7 cannot be the raptured Church.

The pre-wrath rapture uses terms that do not appear in the Bible (Man’s Wrath, Satan’s Wrath, etc.) re-interprets parts of Matt. 24, and violates the chronological order of the Book of Revelation. Of all the rapture positions it’s the most difficult to justify from a Biblical standpoint. Personally, I think it’s impossible.

The Bible is not a book of multiple choices. There’s only one God, One Heaven, one Earth, one Israel, one Church, one Savior, one way to salvation, and one rapture of the Church. The only rapture position that’s true to a literal, contextually pure interpretation of Scripture is the pre-tribulation rapture, and it’s coming soon.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

then how do you justify, that we will have tribulation and we will be killed for the name sake, matthew 24, this is from now until the return of Jesus , just read the fifth seal , it tells you people are still going through there time of faith , but he who endures until the end shall be saved, its all over revelation to the seven churches also.

Because you have made a common, basic mistake. Matthew 24, the Olivet Discourse, is meant for the Jews, not the Church. Scripture teaches that the Church will be gone before this. There are only four churches in the letters to the seven churches that are in the world today.  The Church at Ephesus is past; the Church in Smyrna is past, the Church in Pergamum is past, the Church in Thyatira represents the Catholic church, the church in Sardis represents the Protestants, the church in Philadelphia represents the Evangelicals, and the church in Laodicea represents the liberal and apostate church of the last days. True Christians (and only GOD knows who they are); some from the Catholic Church, some Protestants, true Evangelicals, and even some who believe but still sit in the apostate church will be saved "out of the time and place" of the tribulation. There are many threads about the Rapture, you can look them up. So please, why don't you do that and not keep asking for Scriptural verses to "prove" the Pre-Trib Rapture. By the way, this is not a salvation issue; Christians who are truly saved won't loose their faith if it doesn't happen as we believe it will, so don't throw that tired and worn out argument out there either.

[Montana Marv]

9 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

I gave you a answer and extra, yes...yes...yes,,,

you are not reading what I am putting down, my brother. I am telling you my response ,to you with love,

if anything, its about understanding, I know what you are saying ,and I know what you have stated,

but you need to get scripture to back what you believe,  to make your point for many of the scriptures you could use, cannot be applied for it has to be at the right timing of the scripture, to complete  what it is saying,   

and I don't want you to give up now, I answered you , so prove to me how you figured out that you get a pass on a pre trib rapture,

because I don't see it in the bible, ,,its your move.

I align myself with Stephen.  Forgive them

I like this old adage:  The blind carpenter picked up his hammer and saw.  Was this divine healing, or just the tools of his trade.

Take a closer look at the 5th Seal.  What is the request of those who are under the altar.  How long until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood.  So who are the inhabitants on earth at this time to be judged.  Post Tribbers believe the Church is still here; we know Israel is still here (2/3's of them die), and then there is the rest of mankind.  So is the Church lumped in with the inhabitants on the earth.  Kind of idiotic that some of those of the Church ask that Some of the Church be judged.

Oh I do not get a pass on a Pre-Trib Rapture.  I already have a ticket for a Pre-Trib Rapture.  I am being kept from that hour of trial.  Because that hour of trial only affects only those who live on this earth.  Very simple.  This upcoming hour of trial is put on ALL who dwell on this earth.  The only way to miss this hour of trial is not to be one of the ALL.  We have no need to be on this earth at this time.  For there will be an angel flying in midair proclaiming the Gospel.

How many of your family and relatives will you allow to die because of your decision for Christ.  Or put it another way, will you die because of one of your family or relatives decision for Christ.  You better be willing to let all of them die and not reject your faith in Christ.  For this condition exists now and some have already gone through this: Read the book on the Martyrs for Christ.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Those people (('left')) wouldn't / won't even change their minds nor hearts EVEN IF someone came back from the dead to tell them.

((as it is written)).

So, even IF people 'disappeared' , there won't be enough to 'notice' in most of the world ,  and IF it happens,  those who do notice will (mostly) still get worse. ....

Then who are all those who will give up their lives for refusing to denounce Christ and take the mark? That doesn't even make sense. There will be millions of people left who's spouses or children or friends who are saved and disappeared. And Ministers who thought they were saved but were not. Their hearts will not have been hardened against the Lord. Scripture teaches that only those who have firmly rejected the call of the Lord will have fully hardened hearts without further hope of salvation, yet there will be millions who will be saved during the Tribulation. Whom do you think they will be?

[SINNERSAVED]

1 hour ago, Rick_Parker said:

Because you have made a common, basic mistake. Matthew 24, the Olivet Discourse, is meant for the Jews, not the Church. Scripture teaches that the Church will be gone before this. There are only four churches in the letters to the seven churches that are in the world today.  The Church at Ephesus is past; the Church in Smyrna is past, the Church in Pergamum is past, the Church in Thyatira represents the Catholic church, the church in Sardis represents the Protestants, the church in Philadelphia represents the Evangelicals, and the church in Laodicea represents the liberal and apostate church of the last days. True Christians (and only GOD knows who they are); some from the Catholic Church, some Protestants, true Evangelicals, and even some who believe but still sit in the apostate church will be saved "out of the time and place" of the tribulation. There are many threads about the Rapture, you can look them up. So please, why don't you do that and not keep asking for Scriptural verses to "prove" the Pre-Trib Rapture. By the way, this is not a salvation issue; Christians who are truly saved won't loose their faith if it doesn't happen as we believe it will, so don't throw that tired and worn out argument out there either.

you want to argue,  or be defensive, for you have not proven your stand, it is like I said but you refuse along with montana marv

you are both preaching a assumption and wishing that there be no tribulation for you to face,

Jesus states , from his teachings you are goping to have tribulation , but do not fear , and the holy spirit will speak when that time comes, do you not see, that scripture cannot be twisted ,to suit what you are trying to make it say , for ,yes you have said there are a lot of scripture to back up the rapture , and I agree, yes, it is there,  BUT>>>> it is not set at the time you think you are getting on board and having your pass in hand, you have overlooked the scriptures in context, and in line with the events of the prophecies, matthew 24,  at Jesus return ,After the TRIBULATION,

jESUS ALSO SAYS, DO NOT BE DECEIVED , when they say I am in the desert . or I am here , or I am here, do not believe for he comes in the clouds and like lightning every eye will see him, and we that are in Christ that sleep first will be raptured or gathered , first , and then those that are alive taken ,

this is fact ,and biblical, if you continue to believe in the pre trib rapture, then you are not preparing and watching on the lord, you need to be right with God right now ,and be able to endure until the end, the word  (endure until the end )  is all over the bible, to watch and be ready is all over the bible  , to not be deceived by men is all over the bible ,do not be deceived,

do you really think the movie..... left behind..... is biblical,? it is not , it is a lure for you to not be ready , when tribulation comes, it is a hammer to destroy ,your faith in Christ and God when you find out , he did not get you before all these things, so where will your faith be?

how will you be able to be ready and endure  what is coming if you think you escape it is  a false teaching, given into the Christians to  think they are exempt from Gods will ,

so please , again I ask, do not get upset, but prove by scripture that the rapture is before the tribulation ?

we all would love to have a free pass ,rapture out of here, but we need to be reasonable and responsible to ourselves and family , and to be able to say this

to our love ones and friends , that we need to always be ready in and out of season, grounded in the love of God ,and truth , and we cannot avoid making plans if we ,were to go through tribulation, for if we are not ready and do not plan accordingly , then we could lose hope and faith in the one we believe.in.

 

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Who ? Where have you been for the last hundred years - millions have already been martyred, and many are daily.

That is true. But not because of the Tribulation. And since when has the Mark of the Beast been a factor?

 

32 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Who says ? 

Jesus Christ through the Scriptures. Perhaps you should do a little research as I suggested.

 

33 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Really ? Then why does the Righteous Judge on Judgement Day tell them "Be gone" "I never knew you" ? 

This happens after the Rapture of the Church and is meant for those who perform miracles and such in Christ's name. Again, written in Scripture.

 

35 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Who says?  Where ? 

The Holy Spirit says. Let me do some of the work that you should be doing instead of spouting this nonsense that you keep trying to force unto others that is not Scripturally sound. For if you believe as I do that the Bible teaches the rapture of the Church will occur before Daniel’s 70th Week begins, what will happen to those among your friends and family who will miss it. Will they get another chance to be saved?

"For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness (2 Thes. 2:7-12)."

Here Paul makes the case that the Church has to be gone before the anti-Christ is officially revealed, because it’s the Holy Spirit working through us that’s holding the secret power of lawlessness back.  Those who are perishing will believe the lie that the anti-Christ is the one God has sent to rule the world. Paul taught that God will actually help them come to this false conclusion because they will have refused to believe the truth and be saved. That’s why they’re perishing. At first glance this passage appears to say there will be no second chance, that the time for believing the truth that saves us will have ended with the rapture. The Greek word translated refused literally means they did not accept the truth. It means the truth was presented to them and they rejected it.

But this doesn’t really put the question to rest. Do they have to hear the Gospel and consciously reject it to be counted among those who are perishing, or does the failure to give an affirmative response result in rejection by default? Will everyone left after the rapture be numbered among the perishing, or will there be some who are not? Without getting into the nuances of the Greek language, let’s see if there are any other places in Scripture that can help us find more of the answer. The most logical thing to do is see if we can find any convincing evidence that Gentiles can be saved after the rapture.  I assume you know that many Jews will be saved in the 70th Week because that’s one of its main objectives.

When Daniel’s 70th Week begins God will once again be focused on Israel. From Daniel 9:24-27 we can see that He has unfinished business with His people. Some of the things He promised to accomplish through them in verse 24 simply have not been accomplished yet. There hasn’t been an end to Israel’s rebellion against God, everlasting righteousness hasn’t come in, there are hundreds of Second Coming prophecies that remain unfulfilled, and the Holy Place has not been anointed. None of these things involve the world at large. They all concern Daniel’s people, the Jews, and Daniel’s Holy City, Jerusalem.

But in any study of Acts 15 we see that one of the things God is going to do while restoring Israel after the rapture is to provide a way for the remnant of men, including Gentiles, to seek Him (Acts. 15:17). Evidence that this is true can be found in Rev. 7:9-17 which describes a multitude of post rapture believers that no one could count, coming from every nation, tribe, people and language and arriving in Heaven. This tells us that many of these believers will be gentiles, saved out of Daniel’s 70th Week before the Great Tribulation begins. Some say this group is the church and place the rapture here, between the 6th and 7th seal judgments, but they can’t be right. In the first place John, the disciple most closely associated with the Church, doesn’t recognize them. But more to the point, their destiny is not the same as the Church’s destiny. They are before the Throne of God, but are not seated there with Jesus like the Church will be (Ephesians 2:6) They will serve Him day and night in His Temple, but they will not reign with him and are never called either kings or priests.

I believe this great multitude of believers will have come to faith primarily because of the rapture. They will have heard the gospel but, neither accepting nor rejecting it, they will have put off making a decision until it’s too late. The rapture will remove the final obstacle to their conversion, providing confirmation that you and I were right in what we tried to tell them. This is evidence of Gentiles being saved after the Rapture. But before you get too comfortable with this as a fall back plan for friends and family, remember that in order to arrive in heaven they will have had to die on Earth. They’ll be some of the first martyrs of the 70th Week. Waiting until after the rapture to be saved will not be like waiting for the next streetcar. They’ll have to endure a lot more to receive a lot less.

People have wondered how so great a multitude could die so early in the 70th Week, before the anti-Christ gets his worldwide government fully stabilized and before he becomes indwelt by Satan. The Bible doesn’t say, but I think it could be the result of a back lash against believers following the rapture. Prophecies from other religions tell us much of the world intuitively knows about the coming judgments. The rapture will be incontrovertible evidence that God is about ready to come down hard on them. Retaliation against these new Christians because unbelievers are mad at God for actually doing what He said He’ll do could be one of the motivational forces behind the mass killings.

Also, some New Age leaders say the world is headed for its final leap of evolution. It’s a spiritual one that will usher in worldwide peace and harmony. They say born again Christians and Orthodox Jews are holding this up by clinging to the outmoded notion of a single Creator God and they will have to be taken out of the way first. They often compare the removal of the Church to the surgical removal of a life threatening cancer from an otherwise healthy body. Therefore, another source of anger many will feel could be that just as they think the world is rid of all the meddling Christians, clearing the way for the Utopian life they’ve dreamed about, a whole new flock will show up to ruin things. Remember, the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit that’s kept evil in check all these years will have ended. “Kill the Christians” could become the rallying cry of the unsaved world.

This slaughter of believers will soon be seen as an act of God’s mercy because certainly not all the post rapture believers will immediately be put to death. Others will have years of suffering ahead of them beginning with horrific natural and supernatural events that poison the air and water and including such an agonizing attack of demonic locusts that men will long for death to release them (Rev. 9:1-6). A third of mankind will die from these judgments alone (Rev. 9:18).

Remember, the Great Tribulation will not have begun yet. Neither will this be the last post rapture chance for Gentiles to be saved. Rev. 14:6-7 speaks of another worldwide altar call just after the Great Tribulation begins, "Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

This one will come right after the mark of the beast is introduced, and will be followed by a warning that taking the mark will result in permanent separation from God and a guaranteed eternity of suffering (Rev. 14:9-11). The judgments of the Great Tribulation will be so severe that if left to run their course no one would survive. For the sake of the elect, the Lord will put an end to them after 3 ½ years, but during that time an unspecified number of new believers will die of beheading for refusing to take the mark.  They’ll be resurrected at the time of the 2nd Coming (Rev. 20:4). It’s estimated that only about half of the post rapture world’s population will survive until the end. But during the face-to-face judgments that follow the 2nd Coming the Lord will find believers among the survivors, both Jews and Gentiles. In spite of having been totally excluded from even basic levels of society and a never ending fear of capture and death, they will live to stand before Him and receive their reward.

The parables of Matt. 25 describe this and the Sheep and Goat judgment is clearly about surviving Gentiles (Matt. 25:31-46). The ones who have demonstrated their faith by their actions will be welcomed live into the Kingdom. They’ll help repopulate the nations of Earth. Here then are three references to post rapture believers.  Maybe some of your currently unbelieving friends and family will find themselves among one or another of these post rapture groups. If so those who won’t be martyred early on will have endured a time you wouldn’t want your worst enemy to experience. Jesus said it will be the most terrible time ever to befall mankind (Matt. 24:21).

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

so please , again I ask, do not get upset, but prove by scripture that the rapture is before the tribulation ?

As I have said, there are many threads on this forum debating the Rapture and its timing. Do your own work and search them out.

[Montana Marv]

True Jesus Christ the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords Returns after the 70th Week.  We all know this.

But when does the Bridegroom make his appearance?  At a time which only God the Father knows.  Watch and be ready for the arrival of the Bridegroom.  This can happen at any moment.  So one must be ready NOW, not 7 years from now.  For one will be taken and the other left, another will be taken and another left.  Matt. 24:42 - Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. v.44 - So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

You expect Him after the 70th Week, a known well established time.  We expect Him at some unknown time, such as before the 70th Week, a time which we cannot calculate it's start.  So I am ready now.  I won't be deceived as some of you proclaim.  For you are the ones who may fall into deception because you were left behind.  You maybe identified as the foolish 5 virgins who were not ready when the Bridegroom arrives for His Bride.  OR you may be considered a tribulation saint and accept the real Jesus after the Rapture.  Or you may be one of the beheaded of the 5th Seal which asks for the inhabitants of the earth to be judged for their blood being spilled.  Or you may be one of this so called "church" which will be judged because you inhabit the earth at this time after the 5th Seal.

What else can I say.  When the Bridegroom comes, one will be taken and another will be left behind.  And yes this is Scriptural.

In Christ

Montana Marv