Could Mecca be Mystery Babylon?

[WilliamL]

 

9 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

The problem I see in what you are saying is the failure to acknowledge the seven-headed beast is prophetic imagery for a succession of empires that are directly affiliated to Israel. The angel tells John that the seven heads represents those nations, the beast itself is representative of the eighth and final empire that goes into destruction. Five of those empires preceded Rome and Rome was the one that was present at the time of John and would bring in the destruction of Israel as a sovereign nation with boundaries and a functioning government.

After Israel “was not,” so also the beast “was not.” When Israel became a nation again, the beast reappeared as the seventh, whose king “continued a short space.” Afterwards we see the arising of the eighth and final empire, the eighth beast that will turn against Israel with an intent to destroy her.

I agree with your first paragraph, although I would phrase it, "a succession of empires that directly afflicted Israel." Those being Egypt, Assyria, Chaldean Babylon, Persia, Greece, and (6) Rome, the "one that is."

Regarding your second paragraph, no Scripture ever says Israel "was not." Dispersed Israel continued to exist and be afflicted all throughout the Roman/Holy Roman Empire, both by that 6th head and by the Harlot Roman Catholic Church and her harlot daughters.
 

[WilliamL]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

καi παρέσται is future tense not present tense.

But at least Nebuchadnezzar conquered the middle east proper. Which the Roman Empire could never do. 

καi παρέσται is from the Westcott-Hort school of translators, from which the NIV is derived. I use the Textus Receptus school of translators, in which the term is καίπερ ἐστί, present tense.

The Roman Empire did conquer Babylon, and held it longer than Nebuchadnezzar ever held Egypt. He merely plundered Northern Egypt, then left it, and never ruled over it. Rome ruled over Egypt for centuries.

[BlindSeeker]

3 hours ago, Spock said:

Blind Seeker,

FYI, the .99 doesn't bother me....its Kindle. I don't want to give them 10 dollars a month again. Done that, had some issues, moved on. So, even if I could get your book on Dec 30, I doubt I would be able to read it all that day.  

Thanks for shRing chapter 12.  I will read it sometime today (busy day) but still time.

spock (not spook).

 

No, it will be free no matter how long it takes you to read it. You simply have to purchase it for free on that date.

[BlindSeeker]

16 hours ago, Spock said:

Hey Seeker,

I've  been reading your link a bit more and I can see the basis for the argument better today.  Perhaps the beast countries like Britain and USA as you believe don't have to bully Israel, but merely rule over Palestine. 

This would make sense with Britain because she did rule over Palestine after ww1, but I don't see how this makes sense with America. America has never ruled over Palestine and I don't suppose they will....

 

 

Though I believe I touched on all this in Chapter 18, that Israel as a sovereign nation with boundaries and a functioning government was rebirth in Palestine while it was under the dominion of the British Empire. As I stated in Chapter 18 –

"While having already been somewhat dispersed into the surrounding nations prior to Jerusalem’s destruction, the Jews as “a people” survived. However, their national entity of “Israel” ceased to be a functioning kingdom on the land of their inheritance. For after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans under Titus, both Israel as a nation and their religion of Judaism as defined and practiced under the stringent guidelines of the Levitical Law “was not.”

From that time forward it was impossible for the Jews to lawfully offer sacrifices, for the priests were killed or dispersed and the priesthood record of genealogy forever lost, and the sanctuary, the altar and the Holy of holies with all its furniture were destroyed or lost, a topic to be further examined in Chapter 16. After 70 A.D. the Covenant Land was never again in the sovereign possession of the Jews nor recognized as a nation until after the conclusion of World War II.

But who had possession of the land once Israel ceased to exist? Perhaps more importantly, who had gain possession of it prior to Israel’s rebirth in 1948? The British Empire controlled it. Having become the largest empire in history, the British Empire was the foremost global power for over a century. It was once boastfully said that “The sun never sets on the British Empire.” Having conquered so much under its conquests, all around the world there were territories subjugated to the British Empire and it was in 1948 that Israel was “born again” on land that had become part of the British Empire. Therefore, England qualifies to be considered as a strong candidate for this Seventh Head of the beast.

Revelation 17:9 - And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.  11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The more astute reader will have already detected an apparent discrepancy of how “the foremost global power for over a century” could fulfill the prophecy which says “and when he cometh, he must continue a short space?” In order to rightly divide the word, we must consider its entirety. It isn’t the mountain, or the empire that fulfills this prophecy, rather its king. For George VI, King of the United Kingdom and the Dominions of the British Commonwealth lived only four short years after the rebirth of Israel, only to be succeeded by his elder daughter, Elizabeth which to date continues to reign. Thus George VI was England’s last king.

Because it is a fact that England was in sovereign control of the land at the time of Israel’s rebirth, both it and King George VI alone can qualify as fulfilment of this seventh head; of which the prophecy accurately predicted, “when he cometh, he must continue a short space.” That is, only four short years after Israel which “was, is not, and yet is” as a nation born again.

Thus we can see how Israel, just like the beast, went through the prophetic stages defined by the angel as “was, is not, and yet is” a nation today. We must not ignore Israel’s importance in regards to rightly dividing the prophecies in both Daniel and John’s visions, since Gabriel told Daniel these things pertained to “thy people and… thy holy city.”

So if we look at the complete list of those seven nations or empires which have had a direct relationship with Israel, either by taking her into captivity or having dominion over them and their land, it would be as follows:

1.       Egypt

2.       Assyria

3.       Babylon

4.       Mede/Persia

5.       Greece

6.       Rome (Which destroyed Israel, causing both the beast and Israel answer to the prophetic expression of "was not")

7.       England

Regarding your comment Spock that “America has never ruled over Palestine and I don't suppose they will,” that is not the criteria for America being the eighth that goes into perdition. Rather as scripture declares, and is undeniable as historical fact, that “the eighth… is of the seven…” for this too is included and addressed at the end of Chapter 18 -

But look now what the scriptures says:

Revelation 17:11 - And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Now, because of the phrase “is of the seven,” it must be concluded that “the eighth” is either a direct extension or descent from the seventh, or it is a mixture of each of the seven empires, being an end time conglomeration of multitudes, languages, nations and tongues; a nation existing as a cultural melting pot, a land of international immigrants. Either way, America alone can comfortably wear this prophetic Cinderella slipper.

We would also do well here to recall how it was mostly because of England that America sought to get involved in World War II. Plus, it was World War II that brought the sudden decline of the British Empire, gave way to the rebirth of Israel, and gave America its occasion to rise to its global supremacy.

Thus America is “the eighth… and goeth into perdition.”

16 hours ago, Spock said:

so, again I ask you......could this 8th beast be another nation that will rule over Israel?  Since Rev 17 says it comes out of the abyss, is it possible this 8th beast is some fallen angel who has been locked up in the abyss until it's time to open up the door, and who will be assigned to rule over some other nation, maybe Islamic, maybe not?   (5th trumpet??)

actually, it makes more sense to see USA as a victim of the beasts evil rather than to be the beast. I think America will suffer at the hands of the beast. 

Clearly from what I have presented thus far it should be evident that I do not see how or where “this 8th beast be another nation that will rule over Israel.” Concerning the coming up out of the abyss, it is clear we are dealing with a book of imagery, for we have a seven headed beast representing a succession of empires, 6 of which are indisputably biblically correlated to Israel. Historically no one can deny the significance of England’s role in her rebirth.

As far as America’s history with Israel goes, it is clear she has (had?) been Israel’s greatest supporter… but that is not the current trend. America and her presidents have literally for decades now led the charge against Israel with our “land for peace” initiatives and this administration insistence on Israel returning to pre-1967 boundaries. We are no longer supporting Israel in the true sense of the word. Rather we are trying to get Israel once again to prostitute herself for our support that they might serve our agenda instead of seeking God. Do you really think God is going to quietly sit by?

Plus, Israel, of whom many of the inhabitants “are beloved for the father’s sake” because of God’s covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, they are still a rebellious and stiff-necked people who are not serving God. Hence scripture calls Jerusalem in the last days “Sodom and Egypt” to signify both their social and religious perversion and departure from truth and the consequential bondage to sin they are remaining in today.

Revelation 11:8 - And their dead bodies [the 2 witnesses] shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.  

Hope all that helps to clarify things a bit….

[BlindSeeker]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

I agree with your first paragraph, although I would phrase it, "a succession of empires that directly afflicted Israel." Those being Egypt, Assyria, Chaldean Babylon, Persia, Greece, and (6) Rome, the "one that is."

Regarding your second paragraph, no Scripture ever says Israel "was not."   (edited)

How you see their correlation to Israel to me is not as important as your seeing their biblical correlation. I simply used the word affiliated in the sense that as Israel was, is (was) not, and yet, so is this prophetic seven headed-beast. For as with Daniel’s prophecies which are inseparable from “are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,” so is this beast of John’s vision in Revelation.  When Israel, the physical and historical testimony to the world of God’s righteous sovereignty and power as witnessed by her conquests in righteous faith and service to God and failures and captivities when disobedient, when the national entity of “Israel” ceased to be a functioning kingdom on the land of their inheritance the prophetic beast also ceased until the time of Israel as a nation (not a people) was reborn so to say.

Regarding your statement that there are “no Scripture ever says Israel "was not," true, at least no in those two simple and clear words state it. However, please take careful note of the following two passages. For in Acts chapter 13 we find Paul speaking using Habakkuk’s prophecy to warn the men of Israel of the “wrath to come.”

Habakkuk 1:5 - Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you. 6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwelling places that are not theirs. 7 They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.

Acts 13:16 - Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience… 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Quoting Habakkuk, Paul rebuked the Jews for being “despisers” of God’s word which was now being revealed to them through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore, he warned them, that they were going to perish just as those Jews did when the Chaldeans first destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. Yet we know from history that the coming destruction of which Paul was warning them was not going to be by the Chaldeans this time: rather Rome was going to be the instrument of God’s wrath whereby once more Zion was going to “be plowed as a field” and Jerusalem again destined to “become heaps.”

Likewise, the author of Hebrews mentions the destruction of the Temple in chapter 8 –

Hebrews 8:5. ….Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. ….3 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

. . . Dispersed Israel continued to exist and be afflicted all throughout the Roman/Holy Roman Empire, both by that 6th head and by the Harlot Roman Catholic Church and her harlot daughters.

To get into " the Harlot Roman Catholic Church and her harlot daughters" is in itself a topic that would take considerable time and volumes to thoroughly address. But I could only agree with your statement wholeheartedly if we allow your use of "Israel" to include all those who have exercised true faith in God our Father and contended for the truth concerning Gospel (theology) of the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[other one]

seeker, I bought your book, so I'm dropping out of the thread so it doesn't spoil things for the reading....

 

later...

[WilliamL]

52 minutes ago, BlindSeeker said:

... when the national entity of “Israel” ceased to be a functioning kingdom on the land of their inheritance the prophetic beast also ceased until the time of Israel as a nation (not a people) was reborn so to say.

National Israel ceased to be a functioning  kingdom on the land of their inheritance in 588 BC., but the prophetic beast of that time did not cease. Neither did the prophetic beast cease after 70 AD.

...To get into " the Harlot Roman Catholic Church and her harlot daughters" is in itself a topic that would take considerable time and volumes to thoroughly address. But I could only agree with your statement wholeheartedly if we allow your use of "Israel" to include all those who have exercised true faith in God our Father and contended for the truth concerning Gospel (theology) of the Lord Jesus Christ. ...

I agree, Israel includes both soul/bloodline Israel and spirit-adopted Israel.

In 1568 AD, King Philip II, operating under the authority of the Catholic Inquisition, condemned the whole nation of the Netherlands to death for heresy, because they had become Reformers.

[BlindSeeker]

20 minutes ago, other one said:

seeker, I bought your book, so I'm dropping out of the thread so it doesn't spoil things for the reading....

 

later...

Blessings

[WilliamL]

19 minutes ago, inchrist said:

There is no extant manuscript having "καιπερ εστιν" apart from the Textus Receptus.

Some of the varients are "shall be present" or "and is present"

To be fair there is one Greek manuscript support for “καιπερ εστιν which is the Sinaiticus.

However the Textual evidence favors the reading “is to be” or “is to come".

Whether one accepts "yet is" or "is to be/come" does not make a whole lot of difference. Both would apply to the fallen angel Azazel being in the Abyss at the time of John, but who "will ascend out of the Abyss" at the 5th Trumpet.

English Standard Version
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

Berean Study Bible
The beast that you saw was, and now is no more, but is about to come up out of the abyss and go to its destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose names have been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be.

Berean Literal Bible
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into destruction; and those dwelling on the earth whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will wonder, seeing the beast which was, and is not, and yet will be.

New American Standard Bible
"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

King James Bible
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present again."
 

[Retrobyter]

On December 27, 2015 at 0:20 AM, Spock said:

I know Rome is probably the most popular answer, but what about Mecca? I've read a few books and articles on the web lately that seem to be hot over an Islamic Antichrist and Beast Kingdom. Mecca and Mahdi are huge from this perspective.

Rev 17:: 3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. (The word wilderness is actually desert or desolate place.). Rome is not a desolate place, is it? Rome is not in the desert. But Mecca is.

V. 6: then I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. (Muslims kill Christians all the time.)


16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. (Even the Muslim nations hate Saudi Arabia for being a whore with Western nations and will turn on it at the end.)

Could "wine" mean "oil"?

Anyhow, I'm not feeling Mecca as a player, but just wondering what you are thinking.

Spock out

 

Shalom, Spock.

No, Mecca is in Saudi Arabia. Babylon is in Iraq.