How can we say Tribulation has not started ?

[RustyAngeL]

1 hour ago, SINNERSAVED said:

please don't get me wrong , I am not adding or trying to go against what is Gods word in the bible , but to be attentive to what is happening around  us and the  killing of believers , and I wonder what is  it are we missing something here, I think you see my concern.

Yes I see what you are trying to say.  

[Last Daze]

As it pertains to believers, there is the tribulation that we experience to various degrees and in various ways for being not of this world.

• If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.  Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.  John 15:19-20

This has been going on since the beginning of the church.  Jesus talks about a period of great tribulation in Matthew 24 that begins when the abomination of desolation is setup and ends with the sixth seal.  Outside of the great tribulation He mentions, there is no other distinctly separate time of tribulation affecting the church.

[SINNERSAVED]

3 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

As it pertains to believers, there is the tribulation that we experience to various degrees and in various ways for being not of this world.

• If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.  Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.  John 15:19-20

This has been going on since the beginning of the church.  Jesus talks about a period of great tribulation in Matthew 24 that begins when the abomination of desolation is setup and ends with the sixth seal.  Outside of the great tribulation He mentions, there is no other distinctly separate time of tribulation affecting the church.

thank you for that last daze , I understand

[Serving]

The body of Christ faced and still faces tribulation on a daily basis
   
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Even suffering unto death

Acts 26:9-10 (Paul speaking)

9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.

10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.

And if we die for His Names sake, we die with a guarantee

Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Remembering that not all tribulation leads to death, tribulation can also act as a positive means

Romans 5:1-5

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

But sadly, not everybody is able to see the purifying role that tribulation works through us for His Name

Matthew 13:20-21

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
 
Nevertheless the Lord has provided for us a shelter even when we are being besieged with troubles and persecutions

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

So some tribulations lead to death, yet most tribulations worketh unto hope, other tribulations to condemnation (those offended in His Name) of which tribulations have been with us since Christ, who, as you know, Himself suffered tribulation.

But those tribulations are not to be confused with the set aside and great tribulation which is coming, and like a storm shall this great tribulation hit us all together, and all at once

Revelation 13:15-16

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

But as already mentioned

Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Which is why we see this

Revelation 7:14-15

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Who are these

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So this is the great tribulation we are awaiting, this set aside day which is coming upon all the world and all at once like a great storm of fear and anguish and blood .. where every single person on this planet must make a choice .. for it is a test .. it is a sifting .. and it will be on a level never before seen on planet earth where every person and at the same time must choose or face tribulation unto DEATH and GLOBALLY at that.

 

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, OldSchool2 said:

We've been in the "end times" since the last chapter of Acts.

We should not confuse "the last days" (Heb 1:2) with "the end of the age" (end of the world KJV). We are in the last days since the first coming of Christ, but the "end of the world" (age) will be at His Second Coming.  "When will be the end of the world?" That was the question which was asked before the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21).

We should also distinguish between the trials and tribulations of the saints (which are for the testing and purification of their faith) and the wrath of God against the unbelieving and the ungodly.  The Tribulation and the Great Tribulation have nothing to do with the Church, therefore you will never find the word "church" or "churches" from Revelation 6-18. Once we are clear on these fundamentals, we can understand the end of the world with clarity.

[SINNERSAVED]

2 minutes ago, Ezra said:

We should not confuse "the last days" (Heb 1:2) with "the end of the age" (end of the world KJV). We are in the last days since the first coming of Christ, but the "end of the world" (age) will be at His Second Coming.  "When will be the end of the world?" That was the question which was asked before the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21).

We should also distinguish between the trials and tribulations of the saints (which are for the testing and purification of their faith) and the wrath of God against the unbelieving and the ungodly.  The Tribulation and the Great Tribulation have nothing to do with the Church, therefore you will never find the word "church" or "churches" from Revelation 6-18. Once we are clear on these fundamentals, we can understand the end of the world with clarity.

 so would you say Ezra , that the churches in revelation have become the saints and individuals spirit filled , the true churches scattered through out the world ?

[Spock]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

As it pertains to believers, there is the tribulation that we experience to various degrees and in various ways for being not of this world.

• If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.  Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.  John 15:19-20

This has been going on since the beginning of the church.  Jesus talks about a period of great tribulation in Matthew 24 that begins when the abomination of desolation is setup and ends with the sixth seal.  Outside of the great tribulation He mentions, there is no other distinctly separate time of tribulation affecting the church.

I like and agree with 80% of what my brother said here. Very good words from Daze to ponder. I do not believe the bible talks about a 7 yr tribulation, but rather a 3.5 year GREAT TRIB that even gets cut short. 

Where Daze and I differ slightly is that I believe the Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal. I have thought the GREAT TRIB began at the abomination of desolation but I'm not dogmatic about that now. 

But, Daze and Ezra are right- Christians have been killed since Jesus left the scene. Heck, even supposed "Christians" have slaughtered many Christians throughout the years, it's not just Muslims doing that. 

So, are we in the GT yet?  Nope.  But technically we are in tribulation.  Have we started Daniels 70th week?  Well, some believe it started when Jesus was baptized and ended when crucified (3.5yrs) which means 3.5 yrs remaining.  Some believe we wont start Daniels 70 the week until some kind of false peace treaty is entered into.  I tend to think the latter is more accurate. So, no I don't believe we have begun Daniels final week. 

I hope I was clear stating my position, brother. 

Spock out

[SINNERSAVED]

24 minutes ago, Spock said:

I like and agree with 80% of what my brother said here. Very good words from Daze to ponder. I do not believe the bible talks about a 7 yr tribulation, but rather a 3.5 year GREAT TRIB that even gets cut short. 

Where Daze and I differ slightly is that I believe the Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal. I have thought the GREAT TRIB began at the abomination of desolation but I'm not dogmatic about that now. 

But, Daze and Ezra are right- Christians have been killed since Jesus left the scene. Heck, even supposed "Christians" have slaughtered many Christians throughout the years, it's not just Muslims doing that. 

So, are we in the GT yet?  Nope.  But technically we are in tribulation.  Have we started Daniels 70th week?  Well, some believe it started when Jesus was baptized and ended when crucified (3.5yrs) which means 3.5 yrs remaining.  Some believe we wont start Daniels 70 the week until some kind of false peace treaty is entered into.  I tend to think the latter is more accurate. So, no I don't believe we have begun Daniels final week. 

I hope I was clear stating my position, brother. 

Spock out

here is a thought ,? what if today they came to your house knowing you are a Christian and said its time you confess to being a believer and die , or deny and you live, today , would that mean that the great tribulation just came upon  you ?

[Serving]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

The Tribulation and the Great Tribulation have nothing to do with the Church, therefore you will never find the word "church" or "churches" from Revelation 6-18. Once we are clear on these fundamentals, we can understand the end of the world with clarity.

Not so.

Revelation Chapter 6 speaks of BELIEVERS being KILLED which so happens to take place right after the pale horse appears who is the FALSE PROPHET .. these are BELIEVERS holding the TESTIMONY of Christ for which they were KILLED .. and if one holds the TESTIMONY of Christ then one is a SAINT .. and SAINTS are of the ASSEMBLY .. ASSEMBLY is also known as Christ's CHURCH .. not to mention that these believers are under the ALTAR .. meaning they are symbolically BEFORE God .. meaning they are ACCEPTED .. yet you say the church is not affected .. well you are obviously missing something to make such a bold statement .. at the very LEAST.

Another thing, IF these people are not of Christ's church who hold His TESTIMONY then WHO are they? Pagans? Satanists? Islamists? Scientologists? Fairies? Pink polka dotted elephants? It doesn't take a genius to work out that whosoever holds the TESTIMONY of Christ, let alone DIES for Him is OF the ASSEMBLY which is another word for CHURCH which is made up of SAINTS.

Let alone those under the ALTAR OF GOD are told to WAIT until their fellow BRETHREN are likewise KILLED .. these SAINTS being of the true church of Christ are being KILLED .. yet you say otherwise.

Nevertheless Christ's church IS mentioned in Revelation chapter 6.

STRIKE 1

Revelation chapter 7 speaks of those who died for Christ who came out of great TRIBULATION being present with the Lord henceforth .. one can not die for Christ unless one IS CHRIST's .. meaning a SAINT .. meaning of the ASSEMBLY .. meaning of His TRUE CHURCH .. so you are wrong here again .. Christ's church IS MENTIONED in this chapter ALSO.

STRIKE 2

Revelation chapter 8 is regarding the wrath of God on those with the mark of the beast .. so of course NO NEED to mention Christ's church so remove that from your scoreboard

Revelation 9 ditto

Revelation 10 is about the little book NO NEED to mention the church

Revelation 11 is about the 2 witnesses NO NEED to mention the church

Revelation 12 is a mix with the end of the chapter warning god's TRUE CHURCH that Satan is actually waging war on them so this chapter DOES mention His ASEMBLY / CHURCH

STRIKE 3

Revelation 13 concerns the 2 beasts etc and is not focussing on the church so scratch that chapter from your scoreboard too.

Revelation 14 mentions the HARVEST .. the HARVEST is the gathering of Christ's ASSEMBLY / SAINTS / CHURCH and the Lord said BLESSED are those who DIE FOR HIM HENCEFORTH, one can not die for Christ unless one IS CHRIST'S meaning SAINTS / ASSEMBLY / CHURCH.

STRIKE 4

Revelation 15 talks of His SAINTS who DIED FOR HIM for refusing the MARK OF THE BEAST .. again, one can not die for HIM unless they ARE HIS meaning SAINTS / of the ASSEMBLY / His CHURCH

STRIKE 5

Revelation 16 speaks of the wrath of God against the marked world again, so no need to mention His Church, so scratch this on also from your scoreboard.

Revelation 17 speaks of the HARLOT and not Church focussed again, so scratch that one too.

Revelation 18 is about God destroying Babylon the Great and AVENGING THOSE SAINTS OF HIS ASSEMBLY / CHURCH WHO WERE KILLED FOR HIS NAME SAKE within that destruction .. so His CHURCH is MENTIONED here also

STRIKE 6

So lets see .. 6 chapters YOU claim make no mention of Christ's TRUE CHURCH in fact DO mention it .. and the other 7 chapters are not speaking about His church at all anyway ..

So between chapters 6-18 ONLY 6 chapters are valid to be counted and lo and behold, those 6 chapters DO in fact mention Christ's church which means, statistically and frankly, that you are 100% WRONG in your understanding on this matter.

 

[Ezra]

I repeat, you will not find the word "church" or "churches" (Greek ekklesia) between Rev 6 and 18 (which describe all the final judgments of God). Indeed, between Rev 4 and 21.  Please take out your concordances and verify.  Then ask yourself "How is this possible, and why was it necessary?"

However, you will find saints in Heaven, which is the whole point of bringing this out. While the unbelieving and the ungodly are on earth, the majority of saints (excepting the Tribulation saints) are in Heaven. That answers the question about who goes through the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation.