SavedOnebyGrace Posted January 13, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,054 Content Per Day: 15.41 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2016 I believe in God's sovereignty ... that He is outside of the dimension of time that He created. I also believe in the power of prayer, especially as Jesus taught it ... that is, prayer is not to be a meaningless repetition of words or phrases, but a heartfelt conversation with our Father in Heaven. So I'm throwing this question out to get input from mature Christians as to how they see prayer. Let's say I pray for someone. God is outside of time. So God knows that I will pray for someone. Does God set in motion the answer to my prayer ahead of time because He is sovereign, or does God wait until the actual prayer takes place before answering? Or does it even matter? As a former Calvinist, this question was much easier to answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted January 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 14, 2016 3 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: I believe in God's sovereignty ... that He is outside of the dimension of time that He created. I also believe in the power of prayer, especially as Jesus taught it ... that is, prayer is not to be a meaningless repetition of words or phrases, but a heartfelt conversation with our Father in Heaven. So I'm throwing this question out to get input from mature Christians as to how they see prayer. Let's say I pray for someone. God is outside of time. So God knows that I will pray for someone. Does God set in motion the answer to my prayer ahead of time because He is sovereign, or does God wait until the actual prayer takes place before answering? Or does it even matter? As a former Calvinist, this question was much easier to answer. God presence exist every where in time and outside time. David said that if he made his bed in hell that God would be there. God's presence exist every place there is. God tells us in Ephesians that he knows what we have need of before we even think or ask it. God has foreknowledge of all things before they happen it's our faith in prayer that touches the heart of God It really doesn't matter about God setting things in motion ahead of time because God exists and is every where. If we have a good conscious (confidence no guilt of sin) when we approach God we can ask what we will and he heareth us in 1 John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghtan Posted January 14, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 422 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 216 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 14, 2016 9 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: I believe in God's sovereignty ... that He is outside of the dimension of time that He created. I also believe in the power of prayer, especially as Jesus taught it ... that is, prayer is not to be a meaningless repetition of words or phrases, but a heartfelt conversation with our Father in Heaven. So I'm throwing this question out to get input from mature Christians as to how they see prayer. Let's say I pray for someone. God is outside of time. So God knows that I will pray for someone. Does God set in motion the answer to my prayer ahead of time because He is sovereign, or does God wait until the actual prayer takes place before answering? Or does it even matter? As a former Calvinist, this question was much easier to answer. I'm curious why you think God lives outside time. Isn't it more natural to think God lives IN time? Why do you relate it to his sovereignty? Surely he can live in time and still be sovereign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted January 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,054 Content Per Day: 15.41 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 14, 2016 12 hours ago, Openly Curious said: God presence exist every where in time and outside time. David said that if he made his bed in hell that God would be there. God's presence exist every place there is. God tells us in Ephesians that he knows what we have need of before we even think or ask it. God has foreknowledge of all things before they happen it's our faith in prayer that touches the heart of God It really doesn't matter about God setting things in motion ahead of time because God exists and is every where. If we have a good conscious (confidence no guilt of sin) when we approach God we can ask what we will and he heareth us in 1 John. Protestants had a saying of having to pray through, I guess asking over and over again for God's answer to their prayer. I never felt I had to do that. I pray usually once for someone or something and have faith that God heard my prayer and will answer in a way that's best for them or me. What scripture are you using as a basis for David's belief? I'm not sure I would phrase God's presence in and out of time as you have, but I don't believe God is limited by any dimension He created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted January 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,054 Content Per Day: 15.41 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 14, 2016 6 hours ago, ghtan said: I'm curious why you think God lives outside time. Isn't it more natural to think God lives IN time? Why do you relate it to his sovereignty? Surely he can live in time and still be sovereign. Time is a dimension. I do not believe God is limited by the dimensions He created. If you created a physical hollow sphere. Do you know what's going on inside the sphere without going into the sphere or opening it up? You are on the outside of the sphere. You are not bound by the sphere, but let's say you can enter and leave the sphere at will. Now substitute time for sphere. You are not bound by time because You (God) created time. With respect to God's sovereignty, God knows the beginning and the end. That's why His prophets spoke truth when preaching to Israel. All He has inspired people to preach or write down will come to pass. We may not understand His prophecies completely until after they have ocurred. God is not bound by a dimension He created. God is sovereign. Limiting God in time lessens His sovereignty, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted January 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 14, 2016 5 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: Protestants had a saying of having to pray through, I guess asking over and over again for God's answer to their prayer. I never felt I had to do that. I pray usually once for someone or something and have faith that God heard my prayer and will answer in a way that's best for them or me. What scripture are you using as a basis for David's belief? I'm not sure I would phrase God's presence in and out of time as you have, but I don't believe God is limited by any dimension He created. David said this in Psalms 139:7-12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted January 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,054 Content Per Day: 15.41 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 14, 2016 15 minutes ago, Openly Curious said: David said this in Psalms 139:7-12 What translation are you using because the translation I just looked at does not say God's in Hell. From the NIV: 7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I fleep from your presence? 8 If I go up to the heavens,q you are there; if I make my bedr in the depths, you are there. 9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, 10 even there your hand will guide me,s your right handt will hold me fast. 11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,” 12 even the darkness will not be darku to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted January 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 14, 2016 17 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: What translation are you using because the translation I just looked at does not say God's in Hell. From the NIV: 7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I fleep from your presence? 8 If I go up to the heavens,q you are there; if I make my bedr in the depths, you are there. 9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, 10 even there your hand will guide me,s your right handt will hold me fast. 11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,” 12 even the darkness will not be darku to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you. King James Version Psalms 139:7-12 - Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?... If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.... If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;.... Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.... If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.... Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted January 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 14, 2016 Time is dependent on the movement of the heavenly bodies. Days are determined by the rotation of the earth, making the sun rise and set, and the moon rise and set. As the earth circles the sun, a year is defined. God created all of the heavenly bodies, the earth and other planets, the sun and the stars, and set them in motion, so God created time. Prior to that there was no 'time' so God exists independent of time, and outside of time. It is also clear that at various time, God entered time, such as the time at Mt. Sinai, when God gave the Mosaic law to Moses. Jesus being God, entered time. Jesus was God in the flesh, and while on earth, was subjected to time. Does God know the beginning from the end? Does God know all about us before we are born in time? To me, the answer is yes. God knows what we will pray. Does God answer our prayers before we pray them? Sometimes. But, God wants people to pray (talk to Him). In a conversation, both parties respond or it is not a conversation. Sometimes God has put in motion the answer to our prayer, before we pray, and sometimes God answers our prayer long after we have prayed. But God always answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted January 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,054 Content Per Day: 15.41 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 14, 2016 11 minutes ago, Openly Curious said: KJV From John Gill's Exposition on the Whole Bible, If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there No man hath ascended or can ascend to heaven of himself; it is an hyperbolical expression, as are those that follow; none but Christ has ascended to heaven by his own power, who descended from it; saints hope to go there at death, and, when they do, they find God there; that is his habitation, his throne is there, yea, that is his throne; here he keeps court and has his attendants, and here he will be seen and enjoyed by his people to all eternity; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there]; which, if understood of the place of the damned, is a place of torment, and a very unfit one to make a bed in, being a lake burning with fire and brimstone; and where the smoke of their torment ascends for ever, and they have no rest day nor night; their worm never dies, and their fire is not quenched; and even here God is: hell is not only naked before him, and all its inhabitants in his view; but he is here in his powerful presence, keeping the devils in chains of darkness; turning wicked men daily into it, pouring out his wrath upon them, placing and continuing an unpassable gulf between them and happy souls: though rather this is to be understood of the grave, in which sense the word is often used; and so Kimchi, Aben Ezra, and Arama, interpret it of the lowest parts of the earth, as opposed to heaven; the grave is a bed to the saints, where they lie down and rest, and sleep till the resurrection morn, ( Job 14:12 ) ( Job 17:13Job 17:16 ) ( Isaiah 57:2 ) ; and here the Lord is watching over and keeping their dust, and will raise it up again at the last day. The Targum is,``there is thy Word.'' Your understanding of that passage is in error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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