Prayer and God's Sovereignty

[ghtan]

12 hours ago, Ezra said:

Dividing time is "creating" time. You will note that each day of creation is defined by "evening and morning". Therefore God was measuring time from day one of creation. Time is simply a measurement, not an abstract or concrete principle.

If I MEASURE a piece of land and DIVIDE it into smaller plots, I would have CREATED the land?!?

[ghtan]

14 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

What I've repeated said is time is a dimension, and God is not bound by the dimensions He creates.

I take that to mean you have no scripture to prove God created time. Anyway, God presumably created heaven, yet he lives IN it. So what stops God from living IN time even if he did create it?

[thereselittleflower]

On 1/13/2016 at 2:28 PM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

I believe in God's sovereignty ... that He is outside of the dimension of time that He created.  I also believe in the power of prayer, especially as Jesus taught it ... that is, prayer is not to be a meaningless repetition of words or phrases, but a heartfelt conversation with our Father in Heaven.  So I'm throwing this question out to get input from mature Christians as to how they see prayer.  Let's say I pray for someone.  God is outside of time.  So God knows that I will pray for someone.  Does God set in motion the answer to my prayer ahead of time because He is sovereign, or does God wait until the actual prayer takes place before answering?  Or does it even matter?  As a former Calvinist, this question was much easier to answer.

• Daniel 9:23  Because you're highly regarded, the answer was issued when you began your prayer, and I've come to tell you. Pay attention to my message and you'll understand the vision. 

 

The answer was not sent before he began his prayer, but WHEN he began his prayer, and the answer was sent that fast because of how highly regarded he was - other translations say because of how precious he was to God, highly esteemed, greatly loved, etc.

This suggests that one who does not have such a close relationship with God may not have the answer sent so speedily.

• James 5:16b  The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

 

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

14 hours ago, Ezra said:

Dividing time is "creating" time. You will note that each day of creation is defined by "evening and morning". Therefore God was measuring time from day one of creation. Time is simply a measurement, not an abstract or concrete principle.

measurement  =/= create.

 

You take a pie - you divide a pie into pieces.   You haven't created a pie. 

 

 

[Ezra]

10 hours ago, ghtan said:

If I MEASURE a piece of land and DIVIDE it into smaller plots, I would have CREATED the land?!?

Apples and oranges.

[Guest Butero]

On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 4:19 PM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

John Gill refutes the interpretation you're making an issue of.  Do you believe in unicorns too?  They're in the KJV.  Personally, I will stick with solid scholarship from Reformation leaders like John Gill.

Let me say for the record that I believe that God created time.  That is how I can believe God has always existed.  At the same time, I also agree with all of the responses to you from Openly Curious.  I agree with OC in regard to God being everywhere including in hell, and I also agree that unicorns are real.  They are one horned animals.  I reject the NIV, so if you hold to that, it is your cross to bear.  You are in agreement with a translation that had a lesbian as one of the translators, and where they intentionally perverted the text to make it gender neutral in what they called the TNIV.  It was so discredited, they stopped calling it the TNIV and went back to just the NIV, but it is still an untrustworthy abomination.  I don't know or care who John Gill is.  His views are no more valid than that of the people that post at WB.  If he disagrees with the KJV translation, I reject what he says.  I reject that what you are presenting is "solid scholarship."  Based on your view about hell being the grave, are you Seventh Day Adventist?  Your positions seems to be in line with them. 

Now that we are past that, I did find your OP interesting.  You made a good point about not using repetition, but still, Jesus taught us about the unjust judge, and the need for perseverance in prayer.  I don't think God wants us simply repeating things for the sake of making long prayers, but we are clearly taught in that example to keep knocking till we get an answer.  Does God wait till we pray to give an answer?  Perhaps, but he knows if we will pray as he is all knowing.  His will is going to be accomplished regardless.  I am sorry this had to turn into a Bible translation fight, as you have an interesting question to consider, but if you are going to attack the KJV Bible, I am ready to defend it, not only with regard to unicorn, but Easter or any other of the many things people like to use to attack it.  If you want a translation fight, I assure you I am prepared to give you one. 

[SavedOnebyGrace]

17 hours ago, ghtan said:

I take that to mean you have no scripture to prove God created time. Anyway, God presumably created heaven, yet he lives IN it. So what stops God from living IN time even if he did create it?

From: gotquestions.org

Question: "What is God's relationship to time?"

Answer: We live in a physical world with its four known space-time dimensions of length, width, height (or depth) and time. However, God dwells in a different dimension—the spirit realm—beyond the perception of our physical senses. It’s not that God isn’t real; it’s a matter of His not being limited by the physical laws and dimensions that govern our world (Isaiah 57:15). Knowing that “God is spirit” (John 4:24), what is His relationship to time?

In Psalm 90:4, Moses used a simple yet profound analogy in describing the timelessness of God: “For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.” The eternity of God is contrasted with the temporality of man. Our lives are but short and frail, but God does not weaken or fail with the passage of time.

In a sense, the marking of time is irrelevant to God because He transcends it. Peter, in 2 Peter 3:8, cautioned his readers not to let this one critical fact escape their notice—that God’s perspective on time is far different from mankind’s (Psalm 102:12, 24-27). The Lord does not count time as we do. He is above and outside of the sphere of time. God sees all of eternity’s past and eternity’s future. The time that passes on earth is of no consequence from God’s timeless perspective. A second is no different from an eon; a billion years pass like seconds to the eternal God.

Though we cannot possibly comprehend this idea of eternity or the timelessness of God, we in our finite minds try to confine an infinite God to our time schedule. Those who foolishly demand that God operate according to their time frame ignore the fact that He is the “High and Lofty One . . . who lives forever” (Isaiah 57:15). This description of God is far removed from man’s condition: “The length of our days is seventy years—or eighty, if we have the strength; yet their span is but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away” (Psalm 90:10).

Again, because of our finite minds, we can only grasp the concept of God’s timeless existence in part. And in so doing, we describe Him as a God without a beginning or end, eternal, infinite, everlasting, etc. Psalm 90:2 declares, “From everlasting to everlasting You are God” (see also Psalm 93:2). He always was and always will be.

So, what is time? To put it simply, time is duration. Our clocks mark change or, more precisely, our timepieces are benchmarks of change that indicate the passage of time. We could say, then, that time is a necessary precondition for change and change is a sufficient condition to establish the passage of time. In other words, whenever there’s change of any kind we know that time has passed. We see this as we go through life, as we age. And we cannot recover the minutes that have passed by.

Additionally, the science of physics tells us that time is a property resulting from the existence of matter. As such, time exists when matter exists. But God is not matter; God, in fact, created matter. The bottom line is this: time began when God created the universe. Before that, God was simply existing. Since there was no matter, and because God does not change, time had no existence and therefore no meaning, no relation to Him.

And this brings us to the meaning of the word eternity. Eternity is a term used to express the concept of something that has no end and/or no beginning. God has no beginning or end. He is outside the realm of time. Eternity is not something that can be absolutely related to God. God is even beyond eternity.

Scripture reveals that God lives outside the bounds of time as we know it. Our destiny was planned “before the beginning of time” (2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2) and “before the creation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20). “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible” (Hebrews 11:3). In other words, the physical universe we see, hear, feel and experience was created not from existing matter, but from a source independent of the physical dimensions we can perceive.

“God is spirit” (John 4:24), and, correspondingly, God is timeless rather than being eternally in time or being beyond time. Time was simply created by God as a limited part of His creation for accommodating the workings of His purpose in His disposable universe (see 2 Peter 3:10-12).

Upon the completion of His creation activity, including the creation of time, what did God conclude? “God saw all that he had made, and it was very good” (Gen 1:31). Indeed, God is spirit in the realm of timelessness, rather than flesh in the sphere of time.

As believers, we have a deep sense of comfort knowing that God, though timeless and eternal, is in time with us right now; He is not unreachably transcendent, but right here in this moment with us. And because He’s in this moment, He can respond to our needs and prayers.

Recommended Resources: Knowing God by J.I. Packer

[SavedOnebyGrace]

38 minutes ago, Butero said:

Let me say for the record that I believe that God created time.  That is how I can believe God has always existed.  At the same time, I also agree with all of the responses to you from Openly Curious.  I agree with OC in regard to God being everywhere including in hell, and I also agree that unicorns are real.  They are one horned animals.  I reject the NIV, so if you hold to that, it is your cross to bear.  You are in agreement with a translation that had a lesbian as one of the translators, and where they intentionally perverted the text to make it gender neutral in what they called the TNIV.  It was so discredited, they stopped calling it the TNIV and went back to just the NIV, but it is still an untrustworthy abomination.  I don't know or care who John Gill is.  His views are no more valid than that of the people that post at WB.  If he disagrees with the KJV translation, I reject what he says.  I reject that what you are presenting is "solid scholarship."  Based on your view about hell being the grave, are you Seventh Day Adventist?  Your positions seems to be in line with them. 

Now that we are past that, I did find your OP interesting.  You made a good point about not using repetition, but still, Jesus taught us about the unjust judge, and the need for perseverance in prayer.  I don't think God wants us simply repeating things for the sake of making long prayers, but we are clearly taught in that example to keep knocking till we get an answer.  Does God wait till we pray to give an answer?  Perhaps, but he knows if we will pray as he is all knowing.  His will is going to be accomplished regardless.  I am sorry this had to turn into a Bible translation fight, as you have an interesting question to consider, but if you are going to attack the KJV Bible, I am ready to defend it, not only with regard to unicorn, but Easter or any other of the many things people like to use to attack it.  If you want a translation fight, I assure you I am prepared to give you one. 

As I've said elsewhere, I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church and educated in parochial schools.  I was an agnostic for 10 years and then became a born-again Christian.  (You can read my testimony on my profile page.)  The KJV is the first translation I read as an Evangelical Christian.  I am non-Denominational, but would be comfortable in any Christian church that teaches in a expository style, like Dr. John MacArthur.  I read multiple translations: KJV, NIV, ESV, HSCB, NASB, Wuest, Williams, YLT, and others.  As for getting in a translation argument, those arguments are both tedious and boring.  You can continue along those lines if you wish, but I don't care to go down that path with you.  I don't know nor care what the SDA believes.

[ghtan]

4 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

From: gotquestions.org

Question: "What is God's relationship to time?"

Answer: We live in a physical world with its four known space-time dimensions of length, width, height (or depth) and time. However, God dwells in a different dimension—the spirit realm—beyond the perception of our physical senses. It’s not that God isn’t real; it’s a matter of His not being limited by the physical laws and dimensions that govern our world (Isaiah 57:15). Knowing that “God is spirit” (John 4:24), what is His relationship to time?

In Psalm 90:4, Moses used a simple yet profound analogy in describing the timelessness of God: “For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.” The eternity of God is contrasted with the temporality of man. Our lives are but short and frail, but God does not weaken or fail with the passage of time.

In a sense, the marking of time is irrelevant to God because He transcends it. Peter, in 2 Peter 3:8, cautioned his readers not to let this one critical fact escape their notice—that God’s perspective on time is far different from mankind’s (Psalm 102:12, 24-27). The Lord does not count time as we do. He is above and outside of the sphere of time. God sees all of eternity’s past and eternity’s future. The time that passes on earth is of no consequence from God’s timeless perspective. A second is no different from an eon; a billion years pass like seconds to the eternal God.

Though we cannot possibly comprehend this idea of eternity or the timelessness of God, we in our finite minds try to confine an infinite God to our time schedule. Those who foolishly demand that God operate according to their time frame ignore the fact that He is the “High and Lofty One . . . who lives forever” (Isaiah 57:15). This description of God is far removed from man’s condition: “The length of our days is seventy years—or eighty, if we have the strength; yet their span is but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away” (Psalm 90:10).

Again, because of our finite minds, we can only grasp the concept of God’s timeless existence in part. And in so doing, we describe Him as a God without a beginning or end, eternal, infinite, everlasting, etc. Psalm 90:2 declares, “From everlasting to everlasting You are God” (see also Psalm 93:2). He always was and always will be.

So, what is time? To put it simply, time is duration. Our clocks mark change or, more precisely, our timepieces are benchmarks of change that indicate the passage of time. We could say, then, that time is a necessary precondition for change and change is a sufficient condition to establish the passage of time. In other words, whenever there’s change of any kind we know that time has passed. We see this as we go through life, as we age. And we cannot recover the minutes that have passed by.

Additionally, the science of physics tells us that time is a property resulting from the existence of matter. As such, time exists when matter exists. But God is not matter; God, in fact, created matter. The bottom line is this: time began when God created the universe. Before that, God was simply existing. Since there was no matter, and because God does not change, time had no existence and therefore no meaning, no relation to Him.

And this brings us to the meaning of the word eternity. Eternity is a term used to express the concept of something that has no end and/or no beginning. God has no beginning or end. He is outside the realm of time. Eternity is not something that can be absolutely related to God. God is even beyond eternity.

Scripture reveals that God lives outside the bounds of time as we know it. Our destiny was planned “before the beginning of time” (2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2) and “before the creation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20). “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible” (Hebrews 11:3). In other words, the physical universe we see, hear, feel and experience was created not from existing matter, but from a source independent of the physical dimensions we can perceive.

“God is spirit” (John 4:24), and, correspondingly, God is timeless rather than being eternally in time or being beyond time. Time was simply created by God as a limited part of His creation for accommodating the workings of His purpose in His disposable universe (see 2 Peter 3:10-12).

Upon the completion of His creation activity, including the creation of time, what did God conclude? “God saw all that he had made, and it was very good” (Gen 1:31). Indeed, God is spirit in the realm of timelessness, rather than flesh in the sphere of time.

As believers, we have a deep sense of comfort knowing that God, though timeless and eternal, is in time with us right now; He is not unreachably transcendent, but right here in this moment with us. And because He’s in this moment, He can respond to our needs and prayers.

Recommended Resources: Knowing God by J.I. Packer

Disappointing that you quote an article wholesale in answer to my question. Do you actually understand your view? If yes, why not express it in your own words?

[Guest Butero]

4 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

As I've said elsewhere, I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church and educated in parochial schools.  I was an agnostic for 10 years and then became a born-again Christian.  (You can read my testimony on my profile page.)  The KJV is the first translation I read as an Evangelical Christian.  I am non-Denominational, but would be comfortable in any Christian church that teaches in a expository style, like Dr. John MacArthur.  I read multiple translations: KJV, NIV, ESV, HSCB, NASB, Wuest, Williams, YLT, and others.  As for getting in a translation argument, those arguments are both tedious and boring.  You can continue along those lines if you wish, but I don't care to go down that path with you.  I don't know nor care what the SDA believes.

I really don't want to go down the Bible translation road.  I think you have an interesting topic, and it would be a shame to move away from it with a distraction like that.