Prayer and God's Sovereignty

[SavedOnebyGrace]

On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 11:06 PM, ghtan said:

Disappointing that you quote an article wholesale in answer to my question. Do you actually understand your view? If yes, why not express it in your own words?

I understand everything I quoted or I would have quoted it.   Dr. William Lane Craig, the Christian philosopher I believe supports your viewpoint.  It's part of his cosmological argument for the existence of God.  The problem is if God is now bound by a dimensiion He created, prophesy can no longer exist.  For God to forsee the future and guide the prophetic visions, God must be able to be in and out of time.

Regarding Sodom and Gomorrah, from where did God come from to see for Himself the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?  Since God is sovereign, I believe He already knew and this activity was for Abraham's benefit.  That's how prayers are answered.  God knows we're going to pray but answers our prayers after we pray.  That reinforces everyday prayer in our lives.  If He answered our prayers before we prayed, wouldn't that affect our relationship with Him negatively?

[Openly Curious]

Scriptures tells us that if we will draw nigh to God he will draw nigh to us.  If we want God close to us then we will have to get close to Him.  Prayer is a good way to get closer to God as we walk and talk with Him in prayer and relationship in humble submission to his will his word and will the bible.  Scripture tells us to build up our most holy faith by praying in the Holy Ghost.  Praying in the spirit can build our most holy faith up.  Sometimes our prayers are based on fleshly lust of the flesh and are a miss and God will not answer them.  Sometimes we simply do not ask God for what we need thus we have not because we ask not.  There is a difference in praying in the spirit and praying in the flesh.  Just as there is a difference in walking in the Spirit and walking in flesh.  The saints need to learn the difference between the two.  Knowing the scriptures (His will, the bible) will teach you about God's Soviernity and his plan and how to pray to God the Father through the Holy Spirit in Jesus name.  Saints need to learn how to pray the will of God those things that are right and true righteous petitions not our will but His way for us to pray according to instructions given to us in His Word.

[ghtan]

3 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

I understand everything I quoted or I would have quoted it.   Dr. William Lane Craig, the Christian philosopher I believe supports your viewpoint.  It's part of his cosmological argument for the existence of God.  The problem is if God is now bound by a dimensiion He created, prophesy can no longer exist.  For God to forsee the future and guide the prophetic visions, God must be able to be in and out of time.

Regarding Sodom and Gomorrah, from where did God come from to see for Himself the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?  Since God is sovereign, I believe He already knew and this activity was for Abraham's benefit.  That's how prayers are answered.  God knows we're going to pray but answers our prayers after we pray.  That reinforces everyday prayer in our lives.  If He answered our prayers before we prayed, wouldn't that affect our relationship with Him negatively?

I don’t know whether Craig believes God lives in time but there are many theologians who do. And most, if not all, of them believe God foreknows the future even though he lives in time. So the latter is not an obstacle to the former.

The question remains: why has God never changed the past if he does indeed live outside time? Dismissing it is simply ignoring evidence that implies God lives in time. I note that despite all the objections on this thread to God living in time, nobody here has actually provided evidence to show that God lives outside time.

 

[de1929]

On 1/13/2016 at 6:28 AM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

I believe in God's sovereignty ... that He is outside of the dimension of time that He created.  I also believe in the power of prayer, especially as Jesus taught it ... that is, prayer is not to be a meaningless repetition of words or phrases, but a heartfelt conversation with our Father in Heaven.  So I'm throwing this question out to get input from mature Christians as to how they see prayer.  Let's say I pray for someone.  God is outside of time.  So God knows that I will pray for someone.  Does God set in motion the answer to my prayer ahead of time because He is sovereign, or does God wait until the actual prayer takes place before answering?  Or does it even matter?  As a former Calvinist, this question was much easier to answer.

in other thread i answered questions about predestination and free will, imo this part i will use the same essence

GOD predestines you for every combination of webster dictionary verbs you can imange, and not yet defined. Like you said, GOD is sovereign. You are predestined to be father, fireman, president, lawyet, pastor, etc..etc and anything GOD has predestined for.

Now comes the "limit" that what we called free will. When you were in your mother womb, your mother has a plan. Let's simplify by saying: She planned you to born in USA. Not Australia. Therefore your free will to born in australia is not happened, because your mother had a plan to deliver in USA.

Because you were born in USA, GOD's predestined you to be under doctor's care in australia hospital, were simply not happening because of your mother's free will.

so with this mindset, i hope you understand GOD has everything calculated, whether you pray or not praying.

now back to you, if you want to life to your fullest destiny, you have to yield your free will and ask GOD which part of HIS plan you can execute to bring you to your fullest destiny.

 

[SavedOnebyGrace]

12 hours ago, ghtan said:

I don’t know whether Craig believes God lives in time but there are many theologians who do. And most, if not all, of them believe God foreknows the future even though he lives in time. So the latter is not an obstacle to the former.

The question remains: why has God never changed the past if he does indeed live outside time? Dismissing it is simply ignoring evidence that implies God lives in time. I note that despite all the objections on this thread to God living in time, nobody here has actually provided evidence to show that God lives outside time.

The opinion of "many" theologians means nothing to me.  Who are these theologians and exactly what are they saying?  Where is their proof?

[SavedOnebyGrace]

9 hours ago, de1929 said:

in other thread i answered questions about predestination and free will, imo this part i will use the same essence

GOD predestines you for every combination of webster dictionary verbs you can imange, and not yet defined. Like you said, GOD is sovereign. You are predestined to be father, fireman, president, lawyet, pastor, etc..etc and anything GOD has predestined for.

Now comes the "limit" that what we called free will. When you were in your mother womb, your mother has a plan. Let's simplify by saying: She planned you to born in USA. Not Australia. Therefore your free will to born in australia is not happened, because your mother had a plan to deliver in USA.

Because you were born in USA, GOD's predestined you to be under doctor's care in australia hospital, were simply not happening because of your mother's free will.

so with this mindset, i hope you understand GOD has everything calculated, whether you pray or not praying.

now back to you, if you want to life to your fullest destiny, you have to yield your free will and ask GOD which part of HIS plan you can execute to bring you to your fullest destiny.

This is the worst theological understanding of God and His sovereignty I've ever read.  I don't even know where to start to correcting the above.  Sheesh!

[Guest Thallasa]

On ‎14‎/‎01‎/‎2016 at 3:25 AM, Openly Curious said:

God presence exist every where in time and outside time.  David said that if he made his bed in hell that God would be there.  God's presence exist every place there is.

God tells us in Ephesians that he knows what we have need of before we even think or ask it.  God has foreknowledge of all things before they happen it's our faith in prayer that touches the heart of God  It really doesn't matter about God setting things in motion ahead of time because God exists and is every where.  If we have a good conscious (confidence no guilt of sin) when we approach God we can ask what we will and he heareth us in 1 John.

 Agreed  . Save me writing it .

[Guest Thallasa]

On ‎14‎/‎01‎/‎2016 at 9:50 PM, Qnts2 said:

Time is dependent on the movement of the heavenly bodies. Days are determined by the rotation of the earth, making the sun rise and set, and the moon rise and set. As the earth circles the sun, a year is defined. God created all of the heavenly bodies, the earth and other planets, the sun and the stars, and set them in motion, so God created time. Prior to that there was no 'time' so God exists independent of time, and outside of time.

It is also clear that at various time, God entered time, such as the time at Mt. Sinai, when God gave the Mosaic law to Moses. Jesus being God, entered time. Jesus was God in the flesh, and while on earth, was subjected to time. 

Does God know the beginning from the end? Does God know all about us before we are born in time? To me, the answer is yes. God knows what we will pray. Does God answer our prayers before we pray them? Sometimes. But, God wants people to pray (talk to Him). In a conversation, both parties respond or it is not a conversation. Sometimes God has put in motion the answer to our prayer, before we pray, and sometimes God answers our prayer long after we have prayed. But God always answers. 

Yes , and the heavenly bodies also  determine longer periods of time than a year  .

[Guest Thallasa]

18 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

I understand everything I quoted or I would have quoted it.   Dr. William Lane Craig, the Christian philosopher I believe supports your viewpoint.  It's part of his cosmological argument for the existence of God.  The problem is if God is now bound by a dimensiion He created, prophesy can no longer exist.  For God to forsee the future and guide the prophetic visions, God must be able to be in and out of time.

Regarding Sodom and Gomorrah, from where did God come from to see for Himself the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?  Since God is sovereign, I believe He already knew and this activity was for Abraham's benefit.  That's how prayers are answered.  God knows we're going to pray but answers our prayers after we pray.  That reinforces everyday prayer in our lives.  If He answered our prayers before we prayed, wouldn't that affect our relationship with Him negatively?

Of course, and we would never learn what He has to teach us . Our relationship and interaction with God are neccessary for our developement into true believers,and into perfected children of God  . We learn from  God what pleases Him to give us ,and what displeases Him  :what is important and what is trivial and wasteful . 

 

Could I ask you to enlarge on your remarks about Calvinism having   a different 'time ' conception ?

[SavedOnebyGrace]

3 hours ago, Thallasa said:

Of course, and we would never learn what He has to teach us . Our relationship and interaction with God are neccessary for our developement into true believers,and into perfected children of God  . We learn from  God what pleases him to give us ,and what displeases Him  :what is important and what is trivial and wasteful .

Could I ask you to enlarge on your remarks about Calvinism having   a different 'time ' conception ?

You've put me in a tough spot.  I'm about three months removed from my previous Calvinists beliefs.  It would even be safe to say I was a Calvinist of sorts before I was a born again Christian.  But the Holy Spirit has put me back on the correct path and I thank Him for that.  I will endeavor to answer your question as if I was still a Calvinist.  The last thing I want to do is convert someone to Calvinism or Hyper-Calvinism.

God's sovereignty was most important to me as a Calvinist.  I believe God knows the choices I will make throughout my whole life.  Somehow, I am a piece of the puzzle that fits in so that all prophesies come to be, Lucifer is destroyed, ... etc.  I saw God predestining the future for me, knowing the choices I would make,  actually making me the way I am, so the correct outcome is achieved.  I now believe God can move in and out of time at will.  He is not bound by time, but He knows the beginning and the end, before the Restoration (Creation of Adam) through the events of Revelation, and beyond.  Because God is outside of time, He can move, at will along the time line.  My acceptance of my own death at age 21, and having God, miraculously save me through no actions of my own or anyone else, was the beginning seed of Calvinism in my life.  Prior to that, a philosophy class teaching about the writings of Thomas Aquinos prepared me to begin embracing Calvinism a year later.  So a form of predestination (fatalism) entered my mind and I stopped trying to run from the circumstances I found myself in.  I accepted everything.  I ended up an agnostic (not an atheist).

The big difference is God knowing my actions, and God causing my actions.  I have Free Will to choose.  God knows the choice but doesn't cause the choice.  How can God know the choice?  By being able to transcend space and time.  God is not bound by the dimensions He creates.  For years and even still I ask why God did you save me from death?  I don't have an answer but I praise God He did.  In Calvinism, God creates us a certain way and predestines us to a certain future.  We may feel we have free will but we don't.  This if taken to extreme is fatalism.  It can be quite depressing.