Guest Thallasa Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 On 14/01/2016 at 11:07 PM, Saved.One.by.Grace said: You want to believe God's in Hell. Prove it. This is an interesting argument . Either the KJB is a wrong translation ,or David is wrong ,or one of you is wrong . S B .Grace is correct from my humble point of view ,as we are led to know that one of the most terrible things about hell is our separation from God and all His Glory and Beauty, and Light of course . But on the other hand Openly Curious took the tranlation literally and unless we are experts ,that is all we can do .It does indicate that some theologically profound errors can come about in this way .Some are more dangerous than others . Perhaps it also shows that David never truly could be seperated from God ,and could not imagine the horror of this condition . Which then suggests, that God created him for a special purpose and that he was saved already when he was born ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 10 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: You've put me in a tough spot. I'm about three months removed from my previous Calvinists beliefs. It would even be safe to say I was a Calvinist of sorts before I was a born again Christian. But the Holy Spirit has put me back on the correct path and I thank Him for that. I will endeavor to answer your question as if I was still a Calvinist. The last thing I want to do is convert someone to Calvinism or Hyper-Calvinism. God's sovereignty was most important to me as a Calvinist. I believe God knows the choices I will make throughout my whole life. Somehow, I am a piece of the puzzle that fits in so that all prophesies come to be, Lucifer is destroyed, ... etc. I saw God predestining the future for me, knowing the choices I would make, actually making me the way I am, so the correct outcome is achieved. I now believe God can move in and out of time at will. He is not bound by time, but He knows the beginning and the end, before the Restoration (Creation of Adam) through the events of Revelation, and beyond. Because God is outside of time, He can move, at will along the time line. My acceptance of my own death at age 21, and having God, miraculously save me through no actions of my own or anyone else, was the beginning seed of Calvinism in my life. Prior to that, a philosophy class teaching about the writings of Thomas Aquinos prepared me to begin embracing Calvinism a year later. So a form of predestination (fatalism) entered my mind and I stopped trying to run from the circumstances I found myself in. I accepted everything. I ended up an agnostic (not an atheist). The big difference is God knowing my actions, and God causing my actions. I have Free Will to choose. God knows the choice but doesn't cause the choice. How can God know the choice? By being able to transcend space and time. God is not bound by the dimensions He creates. For years and even still I ask why God did you save me from death? I don't have an answer but I praise God He did. In Calvinism, God creates us a certain way and predestines us to a certain future. We may feel we have free will but we don't. This if taken to extreme is fatalism. 25 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: You've put me in a tough spot. I'm about three months removed from my previous Calvinists beliefs. It would even be safe to say I was a Calvinist of sorts before I was a born again Christian. But the Holy Spirit has put me back on the correct path and I thank Him for that. I will endeavor to answer your question as if I was still a Calvinist. The last thing I want to do is convert someone to Calvinism or Hyper-Calvinism. God's sovereignty was most important to me as a Calvinist. I believe God knows the choices I will make throughout my whole life. Somehow, I am a piece of the puzzle that fits in so that all prophesies come to be, Lucifer is destroyed, ... etc. I saw God predestining the future for me, knowing the choices I would make, actually making me the way I am, so the correct outcome is achieved. I now believe God can move in and out of time at will. He is not bound by time, but He knows the beginning and the end, before the Restoration (Creation of Adam) through the events of Revelation, and beyond. Because God is outside of time, He can move, at will along the time line. My acceptance of my own death at age 21, and having God, miraculously save me through no actions of my own or anyone else, was the beginning seed of Calvinism in my life. Prior to that, a philosophy class teaching about the writings of Thomas Aquinos prepared me to begin embracing Calvinism a year later. So a form of predestination (fatalism) entered my mind and I stopped trying to run from the circumstances I found myself in. I accepted everything. I ended up an agnostic (not an atheist). The big difference is God knowing my actions, and God causing my actions. I have Free Will to choose. God knows the choice but doesn't cause the choice. How can God know the choice? By being able to transcend space and time. God is not bound by the dimensions He creates. For years and even still I ask why God did you save me from death? I don't have an answer but I praise God He did. In Calvinism, God creates us a certain way and predestines us to a certain future. We may feel we have free will but we don't. This if taken to extreme is fatalism. Thank you for you answer SB Grace .My reply just disappeared . Maybe God decided for me . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted January 20, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.36 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 20, 2016 On 14/01/2016 at 3:03 PM, Openly Curious said: Now you want to turn every thing into a translation issue. Do you deny that the presence of the Holy Spirit is every where or are you limiting God's Spirit? David didn't and I don't either. No matter what translation I use or don't use. That word in Hebrew is Sheol which is equivalent to Hades, not the Lake of Fire. Had the KJV translators transliterated the word as Sheol, there would be no misunderstanding. Since God is omnipresent, He sees Hades as much as He sees anything else. There is no one in the Lake of Fire at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted January 20, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,054 Content Per Day: 15.36 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 15 minutes ago, Thallasa said: This is an interesting argument . Either the KJB is a wrong translation ,or David is wrong ,or one of you is wrong . S B .Grace is correct from my humble point of view ,as we are led to know that one of the most terrible things about hell is our separation from God and all His Glory and Beauty, and Light of course . But on the other hand Openly Curious took the tranlation literally and unless we are experts ,that is all we can do .It does indicate that some theologically profound errors can come about in this way .Some are more dangerous than others . Perhaps it also shows that David never truly could be seperated from God ,and could not imagine the horror of this condition . Which then suggests, that God created him for a special purpose and that he was saved already when he was born ? Good observations. One observation I made when studying Job was that God never directed anything to harm Job, but allowed Satan to do the dirty work within God ordained limits. When Job's "friends" talk to him, they blame Job directly for his "sin" and God directly for Job's punishment. God allowed it to happen but within limits. This is an important book for us to understand then and now. God is not the author of evil. We will all suffer trials, but at the end if we remain true to God's word, we will overcome. And God will say to us, well done good and faithful servent. God cannot be in Hell because His Majesty would overcome the darkness there. The modern translations I looked at have this passage translated correctly. I agree with you Thallasa, it is dangerous to place one's theology on one verse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted January 20, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,054 Content Per Day: 15.36 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 9 minutes ago, Thallasa said: Thank you for you answer SB Grace .My reply just disappeared . Maybe God decided for me . And I got a double post. Strange things happen sometimes on this website. I've lost so may posts I've lost track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 On 16/01/2016 at 0:38 AM, Butero said: Let me say for the record that I believe that God created time. That is how I can believe God has always existed. At the same time, I also agree with all of the responses to you from Openly Curious. I agree with OC in regard to God being everywhere including in hell, and I also agree that unicorns are real. They are one horned animals. I reject the NIV, so if you hold to that, it is your cross to bear. You are in agreement with a translation that had a lesbian as one of the translators, and where they intentionally perverted the text to make it gender neutral in what they called the TNIV. It was so discredited, they stopped calling it the TNIV and went back to just the NIV, but it is still an untrustworthy abomination. I don't know or care who John Gill is. His views are no more valid than that of the people that post at WB. If he disagrees with the KJV translation, I reject what he says. I reject that what you are presenting is "solid scholarship." Based on your view about hell being the grave, are you Seventh Day Adventist? Your positions seems to be in line with them. Now that we are past that, I did find your OP interesting. You made a good point about not using repetition, but still, Jesus taught us about the unjust judge, and the need for perseverance in prayer. I don't think God wants us simply repeating things for the sake of making long prayers, but we are clearly taught in that example to keep knocking till we get an answer. Does God wait till we pray to give an answer? Perhaps, but he knows if we will pray as he is all knowing. His will is going to be accomplished regardless. I am sorry this had to turn into a Bible translation fight, as you have an interesting question to consider, but if you are going to attack the KJV Bible, I am ready to defend it, not only with regard to unicorn, but Easter or any other of the many things people like to use to attack it. If you want a translation fight, I assure you I am prepared to give you one. Waiting for the spectacle to begin, but praying there will be peace . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 20, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,047 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,795 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 20, 2016 2 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: This is the worst theological understanding of God and His sovereignty I've ever read. I don't even know where to start to correcting the above. Sheesh! good observation..... maybe just a protest is enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted January 20, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,054 Content Per Day: 15.36 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 13 minutes ago, other one said: good observation..... maybe just a protest is enough. I hope you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 50 minutes ago, Ezra said: That word in Hebrew is Sheol which is equivalent to Hades, not the Lake of Fire. Had the KJV translators transliterated the word as Sheol, there would be no misunderstanding. Since God is omnipresent, He sees Hades as much as He sees anything else. There is no one in the Lake of Fire at this time. I would think God can see us ,but we will not 'see ' God if we are there . So what was David really saying ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted January 20, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,054 Content Per Day: 15.36 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Ezra said: That word in Hebrew is Sheol which is equivalent to Hades, not the Lake of Fire. Had the KJV translators transliterated the word as Sheol, there would be no misunderstanding. Since God is omnipresent, He sees Hades as much as He sees anything else. There is no one in the Lake of Fire at this time. Sheol has been commonly translated as the grave, but that doesn't convey its full meaning. Also, it is a mistake to translate this as Hell where judgment has taken place. It is the abode of the dead. The KJV translators are not consistent in their translation of Sheol, and would have been better off transliterated the word so there was no mistake and the full meaning understood. Strong's Hebrew 7585. sheol -- underworld (place to which people descend at death)sheol or sheol. 7584, 7585. sheol or sheol. 7586 . underworld (place to which people descend at death). This is where the Roman Catholic Church gets the idea of Purgatory. But sheol is not a place of suffering. It is a place of holding for those not covered by the blood of Jesus. Much is written by the Jews concerning Sheol, but since none of us have been there, we can only speculate from Holy Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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