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The seven year Peace treaty, is it true or false ?


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8 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I guess I will need to go and visit that thread to get all the discussion on this important topic. Honestly, I'm undecided and still looking for a wise voice to bring clarity to me on this one (it seems like I seek this often). 

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On 1/22/2016 at 4:18 PM, Spock said:

Bring it brother!  (Said while eating popcorn.....I like this discussion)

Alright, here you go. I had written this before and will post it here to kick off what I think is going in the text. Please read and respond.

 

Here are my reasons why the 70 weeks are not to be interpreted in years but literal weeks. If this is true then there no 7 year tribulation. Here's why...

The 70 weeks are not 490 days=490 years. It HAS TO BE a shorter amount of time based on the life of the anointed prince. Look...

•         Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

•         Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
 Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

(These verses above have been translated to include the 62 weeks and the 7 weeks together to make up 69 weeks but that distorts the original distinct 7 and 62 weeks and makes them read unnatural. The first seven weeks relate to the coming of a prince. The 62 weeks are in regard to the rebuilding. I won't go heavily into the translation problems but I firmly believe the texts are to be understood from the divided interpretation of 7 and 62 weeks being distinct from one another. Why would the writer intend 69 weeks but say 7 and 62 weeks? It doesn't make sense and should be rejected. )

I had previously believed, like most scholars, that the 70 weeks represent 490 day years based on Daniel 9:24. They then configure a timeline from Cyrus's decree to the day Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey to be the the first 69 weeks. Scholars then assume that the last week of 7 years is divided into two 3.5 years from Daniel 9:27 and 12:11 because of the ending of the sacrifices seeming to correlate to the half week and the 1290 days given by the angel. There is also the Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:14 reference to 1260 days being the time-times-half a time. Scholars multiply the 3.5 years to make a final 7 year/week of "tribulation".

However that is not consistent to the weeks of Daniel 9 and should not be the sole interpretive measure. Clearly, we can see that the anointed prince's life span is within the 70 weeks forcing them to be 70 literal weeks. This is clear and must be considered. Doing so, it makes the 70 weeks=490 years case wrong as I had also previously thought possible but now have changed my mind. It also makes the 7 year tribulation case wrong since it is based off of the 70 weeks being in year/days.


This has radical implications. This means that there is not a seven year tribulation that the mainstream church has based many sermons, books and movies upon. The assumption has always been based around the speculative framework of Daniel 9's seventy weeks. Please read my further arguments below.

Arguments against the traditional futurist view on the 70 weeks.

1. The one and only consequence for breaking the Sabbath land-rest law was that they would be sent out of the land.

•         Lev 26:34 "Then the land shall enjoy its Sabbaths as long as it lies desolate, while you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest, and enjoy its Sabbaths. 35 As long as it lies desolate it shall have rest, the rest that it did not have on your Sabbaths when you were dwelling in it.

Israel was under Rome in their own land during the time of Jesus which is supposed to have occurred during the 69 weeks of years in order to fulfill their timeline of 70 weeks or 490 years. This alone shows how impossible this interpretation has been. Israel was exiled out of the land to Babylon during the 70 years judgment but what we see in future prophecy is that Israel will remain in the land to fight. It is not until the end of the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9:27 that "the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator." happens and they are then told to flee Jerusalem.

•         Mar_13:14 "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

This is a big factor preventing the 70 weeks from being Sabbath years and not to be overlooked. If the last week of the tribulation is to take place with Israel in their land then it is impossible for them to be sabbath day=years.

2. Based on how most scholars today measure Daniel’s 70 weeks by multiplying 70 broken Sabbath years by 7 years, they surmise a 490 year punishment. However, it would have to mean that the Israelite's had broken the Sabbath land rest for 3430 years. There has not been enough time for them to have been in the land to have broken that many Sabbath land rest years.

3. We have to remember that the 70 weeks is a consequence of judgment and there is also absolutely no mention of Israel breaking the Sabbath land-rest law in future prophecy outside of what scholars proclaim for Daniel 9:24. The fact that they were out of the land for over 2000 years already should have cleared up any land rest issues God might of had. Thus, ruling out the last week of years being necessary for resolving the land laws of rest.

4. There are also many other verses where “weeks” or “sevens”( shâbûa‛) means literal days. We can’t forget that the original Sabbath week was 7 days.

•         Lev 23:3 "Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work. It is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwelling places.

Just two chapters before the Sabbath land rest verses where scholars believe the weeks=years concept we find this:

•         Lev 23:15 "You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering.

Perhaps, the angel is telling Daniel that once the temple is rebuilt that a time frame coinciding with the Sabbaths days will commence. This could be a prophetic time frame until the harvest time. Remember, the 70 weeks start when the Jews rebuild Jerusalem and the sanctuary exists, meaning that this is meant for the Jews at that future time. The Jews will follow the Sabbath as even Jesus said in Mat 24:20 "Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath."

Just so people can see, “weeks’ can mean both days and years linguistically.

Brown-Driver Briggs Hebrew Lexicon states this for “weeks”:
shâbûa‛ / shâbûa‛ / shebû‛âh

Definition:
1) seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week
1a) period of seven days, a week
1a1) Feast of Weeks
1b) heptad, seven (of years)


5. Just because scripture at times uses weeks as years does not mean we can use it anywhere we want to. It must be shown contextually but the context of Daniel 9:24-27 reveals a time table that rules out weeks equaling years. The life span of the anointed prince is paramount in this regard and somehow has been overlooked.


6. The previous 70 years under Nebuchadnezzar was a judgment based on the Sabbath year land misuse but why is there no mention of the land resting for 490 years in the future as it was told of Israel for just the 70 years and repeated throughout scripture. E.g., 2 Chronicles, Jeremiah, Zechariah and in Daniel?


7. A 7 year Sabbath land rest places Israel back under the law. The law has been done away with when Jesus Christ came to fulfill it. The Jews will follow the Sabbath but God will not require it of them as also the temple they will rebuild, only faith and obedience to His Son Jesus Christ is required now.

•         Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two (Jew and Gentile), so making peace,

The old covenant has been replaced by the new covenant and to say that God would make the Jews serve 490 years due to breaking the Sabbath land laws of Leviticus 25 is to re-establish the law and makes the new covenant irrelevant. Any future sacrifices in the millennium can be explained as commemorative and do not entail curses. Unless someone wants to argue that the Jews are still under the law in contrast to the clear teaching of scripture.

•         Heb 10:10-14 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (11) And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. (12) But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, (13) waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. (14) For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

8. There is a problem in saying that there is a 7 year time frame remaining from the final week of Daniel 9:27. The angel tells Daniel that from the mid-point of the ceasing of the burnt offerings there is still a total of 1290 days and even 1335 days remaining. That does not fit into the 7 week, double 3 ½ year scenario. That would extend the last week beyond 3 ½ years, making the 70 weeks not the finality of events as maintained.

•         Dan 12:11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. (12) Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.

To resolve this issue and he others I have raised, it would seem better to allow for two different time frames concerning the finality of Israel in judgment and repentance as seen throughout scripture. There is no need to force the 70 weeks into a time frame that does not correspond to all of scripture.

9. If the 69 weeks of Daniel 9:25-26 were to have happened before and up to the time of Christ, why didn't Jesus, his apostles or later disciples ever interpret Daniel 9:24-27 as having been fulfilled or partially fulfilled during their life times? It would've been a tremendous fulfillment for believers if such prophecies were to have occurred and culminated during their time. Could we really say they didn't know? All the other prophecies that were fulfilled were revealed to us.

10. Again, there seems to be a forcing of the 70 weeks for reasons that do not make sense. For instance, in the traditional futurist view, why would the 70 weeks be broken up to when Artaxerxes gave a decree until Jesus comes to Jerusalem on a donkey? This occurs during the latter end of His ministry but why culminate a 483 year prophecy to this event and not His crucifixion? It also does not account for his other remaining time on earth. Especially the finality of his resurrection. Instead, scholars force the date to be him riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. What happened to His most critical accomplishments? Was riding on a donkey into Jerusalem that significant? It doesn’t make sense.

This problem is only exacerbated by the fact that Jerusalem continued on until 70 A.D. Supposedly, the 70 weeks is still yet to pick up after Jerusalem has been in the land since 1948? What is to explain this seemingly arbitrary relationship of events? What is to make sense of this prophecy time line?

11. If the 69 weeks of Daniel 9:25-26 were to have happened before and up to the time of Christ, why didn't Jesus, his apostles or later disciples ever interpret Daniel 9:24-27 as having been fulfilled or partially fulfilled during their life times? It would've been a tremendous fulfillment for believers if such prophecies were to have occurred and culminated during their time. Could we really say they didn't know? All the other prophecies that were fulfilled were revealed to us.

12. Here are some false assumptions many scholars make when interpreting Daniel 9:24-27:

-They assume the only allowable interpretation is the land-rest, day=year sabbatical curse. Hebrew weeks have been used for both years and days.

-They assume that the first 7 weeks of Dan 9:25 is irrelevant.

-They assume that the anointed one doesn't arrive after the first 7 weeks. It does not say after 69 weeks but after 7 weeks he arrives.

-They assume that the 62 weeks and the first 7 weeks are combined. Scripture does not say they are.

-They assume that your preselected historical dates have to be fulfilled in order to defend prophecy.

-They assume the text apart into 69 weeks and then a final 1 week. Scripture does not teach this. It teaches 7 weeks to an anointed ruler, then 62 weeks for the rebuilding of Jerusalem, then a final week made covenant with the same ruler.

-They assume that the ruler is Jesus Christ. This is not clearly taught. You are reading this into the text. Cut-off (Karath) simply means exclusion or destroying. It was a term used by God or Israel to remove a person from their community. Exo_12:15, Psa_101:8..

-They assume that you can do to the text something you wouldn't do to any other passage.

-They assume that this passage is not consistent with Daniel 11 and that you can isolate a set of passages while ignoring others.

-They assume that calculators and commentaries are more useful than the context of scripture.

-They assume you can make events fit your constructed timeline of history before rightly interpreting the construction of scripture.
I've studied the traditional futurist view and the most compelling reason to believe in a 490 year time frame is the final 7 week. I have found problems with the final 7 weeks model and have discovered a solution. This next section below will outline what I believe to be that solution.

In scripture, there are three time-frames in the futurist eschatology of Israel.

1. The first time frame is of Israel’s judgment (70 weeks).

Dan 9:24  "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

2. The second time frame is of Israel’s spiritual salvation (1260 days).

  • Rev 12:14  But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.


3. The third time line is of Israel’s physical restoration (2300 evenings and mornings).

  • Dan 8:14  And he said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state."


1.  The first time-frame is the 70 weeks of judgement.

We can see in Daniel that the previous 70 years of Israel’s exile was also a previous punishment.

•         Dan 9:2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

There are many prophecies making it very clear that God is going to bring a final judgment against Israel.

•         Luk_21:23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.

•         Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

•         Dan 11:36 "And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.

•         Zec 12:2 "Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the surrounding peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah.

The 70 weeks of Daniel 24-27 is only referring to God’s judgment of Jerusalem. Look how the 70 weeks start and finish. The 70 weeks start with the rebuilding of Jerusalem and end with the desolation of Israel. There is not one mention during the 70 weeks of Israel’s repentance or restoration. The 70 weeks is only dealing with the final ‘desolation’ of Israel.

•         Dan 9:24-27 "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. (25) Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. (26) And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. (27) And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

The question of whether 62 literal weeks is sufficient to time to rebuild Jerusalem is answered by looking at what exactly is rebuilt. It is only a street and wall as the ISV translates it.

•         Dan 9:25 …The street will be rebuilt, along with the wall, though in troubled times.

This rebuilding can occur after any one of the battles mentioned early throughout Daniel 11: 9-16.

2.  The second time frame is the 3 ½ years of Israel’s spiritual restoration:
It is not until Israel is destroyed that the 70 weeks will end. The Jews will then flee Judea and will repent beginning their 1260 days of nourishment while the antichrist turns against the church. God will then turn in their favor to deliver them.

•         Dan 12:1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

•         Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.

Right before Jerusalem is destroyed. Jesus told the Jews that when they see the abomination of desolation they are then to flee to the mountains.

•         Mar_13:14 "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Only the believing Jews who obey Jesus will be saved. These will nourished for the 3 ½ years.

The antichrist will then go after the church during that same time.

•         Rev 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

•         Dan 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

•         Rev 13:5-7 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. (6) It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. (7) Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,

There is a feeding or nourishment shown to Israel for 3 ½ years. This is the time when the Jews will reconcile with God through the prophecies revealed in the old and new testaments. When Christ comes back they will ready to receive Him as they cry out for salvation. The antichrist will be the tool to drive them home spiritually.

•         Rev 12:6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

•         Rev 12:14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

•         Zec 12:7 "And the LORD will give salvation to the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not surpass that of Judah.

•         Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

There will many Jews saved through the preaching of the prophecies and their fulfillment during that 3 1/2 years time.

•         Dan 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

•         Dan 12:9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

The tribulation will not take place until after the 3 1/2 years.

•         Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

3. The third time frame is the 2300 “Evenings and Mornings” until Jerusalem’s restoration.

•         Dan 8:13-14 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, "For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?" (14) And he said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state."

•         Eze 37:21-28 then say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. (22) And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. (23) They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. (24) "My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. (25) They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. (26) I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. (27) My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (28) Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."


This conclusion also rules out the common interpretation that Jesus is the fulfilled anointed prince following the decree in Nehemiah. Again, the life span time restriction does not fit that as a possibility. What many people consider to be Jesus in Dan 9:26, can also be interpreted as the antichrist. The word 'anointed' has also been applied to Satan and Cyrus and doesn't require it to be Jesus. Both have been employed by God to do his service.

•         Isa_45:1 Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and to loose the belts of kings, to open doors before him that gates may not be closed:

•         Eze_28:14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
Nebuchadnezzar was also fulfilling God's will in sacking Jerusalem and yet was an evil person at the time of service. This was part of the curses of Deuteronomy for disobedience. God said He would bring upon them their enemies (Deu_28:48). Nebuchadnezzar was even called God's servant twice...

•         Jer_25:9 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the LORD, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation.

•         Jer_27:6 Now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, my servant, and I have given him also the beasts of the field to serve him.

You have to keep in mind when reading Daniel that the angel said that the 70 weeks happens at the time of the end -Dan 10:14. The time of the end is God's final outpouring of wrath or judgement on Israel's sin until they repent. It's a complete unit of time when God brings the "surrounding" nations against Israel to judge her. The time of Jacob's trouble is the long awaited final judgement. Remember, judgement begins with the house of God then the world will get theirs soon after. When Israel repents (Zech 12) God then defends them in His mercy. The antichrist is God's judgement against Israel.

•         Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

•         Dan 11:36 "And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.

•         Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

•         Luk_21:23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.

The vision chapters of Daniel all harmonize around the antichrist who is part of the latter fourth kingdom. This same prince is mentioned throughout the Daniel 9 and 11 scenario to come against Israel. It is during his life time that the 70 literal weeks span.

It is my contention that too much emphasis is placed on the last week of Daniel 9:27 rather than trying to understand all the time frames that are given. Each time frame has its context and must be considered before harmonizing the passages can occur. The forcing of the tribulation into Daniel 9:27 does not account for all that we see that is to take place.

Edited by unworthydude
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UWD

The 70 Weeks of Sevens begin with Cyrus signing the decree to restore the building of Jerusalem.  Thus 483 years to the death of Jesus. One Seven remains.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

I believe the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 BC to the baptism of Jesus in 27 AD fulfilled the first 69 weeks or 483 years.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Jesus was cut off, crucified, after 62 weeks.  I believe in 30 AD.

I do not believe that "unto Messiah the Prince" is the same as "shall Messiah be cut off".  I believe Messiah came (was baptized) in 27 AD and Messiah was cut off in 30 AD.

 

Luke 3:1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

Luke 2:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age

The Messiah came in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar; was baptized; and a voice from heaven said "Thou art my beloved Son".  The fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar is about 27 AD.

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36 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

UWD

The 70 Weeks of Sevens begin with Cyrus signing the decree to restore the building of Jerusalem.  Thus 483 years to the death of Jesus. One Seven remains.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I truly do not want to offend anybody so please take my critique with love. I wish you would have read my rebuttal to this position instead of just reinserting it as an argument. I love you bro in Christ and hope you are right and I am wrong but I have challenged what you and I believe(d) and have found it wanting. Hope you truly read it and understand why the position you are defending is weak.

Edited by unworthydude
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5 minutes ago, Watching for Jesus said:
8 minutes ago, Watching for Jesus said:

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

I believe the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 BC to the baptism of Jesus in 27 AD fulfilled the first 69 weeks or 483 years.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Jesus was cut off, crucified, after 62 weeks.  I believe in 30 AD.

I do not believe that "unto Messiah the Prince" is the same as "shall Messiah be cut off".  I believe Messiah came (was baptized) in 27 AD and Messiah was cut off in 30 AD.

 

Luke 3:1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

Luke 2:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age

The Messiah came in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar; was baptized; and a voice from heaven said "Thou art my beloved Son".  The fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar is about 27 AD.

 

 

It's a better time frame than Jesus's entry into Jerusalem which seems a bit arbitrary but overall your view still has problems, e.g., assuming the 70 weeks are years and the issues I raised concerning it. I admit I could be totally wrong but hope others can help correct me on the points I have raised. I just don't want to presume the scholars are right without having confirmed it myself. Thanks for your input.

 

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On January 17, 2016 at 8:20 PM, SINNERSAVED said:

Okay , we have in Daniel for a times time and and half a times, about ?

this peace treaty that many are waiting to see if it is going to come, by the antichrist/ or beast, for the temple?

to sign and then break it in the middle , and then the abomination of desolation standing where He should not be ,

flee to the mountains , and don't look back, for this will be a time of the abomination, that makes desolate,

 so here is the question, is there a seven year peace treaty ? really where is it stated,?

is the abomination of desolation, what is this event, that is taking place,?

 can we watch the starting of this ?  , if the people are fleeing for there lives , this make no sense ,

for I believe many have been looking at this all wrong , but that is just me, lets examine to see what is really going on with this, for I believe this has deceived the masses and we are not aware of what all this really is saying,

I will add to this after a few responses to see where it leads , thank you

Daniel 9 26, Daniel 11 31 these are scripture many have not really looked at,  ,?

 

I just read a book in which the author said the building of the Dome of the Rock on the Temple site in 688 AD was the Abomination of Desolation. While I don't agree, I found it interesting read because he supported it with a timeline from scripture. The timeline mostly came from the OT and used Days= Years in prophecy. 

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On January 17, 2016 at 2:20 PM, Watching for Jesus said:

I believe the time, times and half a time is referring to the 42 month war with the saints by the antichrist.

I believe the covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27 is an agreement (peace treaty) for 7 years (Daniel's 70th week) leading up to the return of Jesus on the white horses to set up His kingdom for 1,000 years.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I see the daily sacrifice being taken away in the midst of the week (close to the middle), but not the abomination of desolation set up at that time.

I see the abomination of desolation being set up 1,290 days after the daily sacrifice is taken away (Daniel 12:11).

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

I believe the abomination of desolation is when the antichrist stands in the temple and declares himself to be God, and the false prophet sets up the image of the beast (the antichrist).  The people living in that area are told to flee because the great tribulation period is about to begin.  The great tribulation period will be 44 days long, followed by the 1,335th day, which is the day of the Lord (one 24 hour day).

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The Second Coming of Jesus will be on the day of the Lord.  The day of the Lord is the final day of the 42 month war with the saints.  The war with the saints will end when Jesus returns to gather His elect (the rapture).

Cool interpretation. I never considered the AofD to be toward the end of the 70th week.  I guess I haven't studied Daniel 12:11 enough. It sure seems to say that.  Let me ponder this some more and get back with you.

thanks,

spock

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On 17/1/2016 at 7:20 PM, SINNERSAVED said:

[edited]

Okay....

....is the abomination of desolation, what is this event, that is taking place,?

From Josephus -

Josephus - Wars Book 6 -Chap.2 - para. 1

HOW TITUS PERSUADED JOSEPHUS TO EXHORT THE JEWS AGAIN [TO A SURRENDER]

“…I dare venture to promise that the Romans shall still forgive thee. And take notice that I, who make this exhortation to thee, am one of thine own nation; I, who am a Jew, do make this promise to thee. And it will become thee to consider who I am that give thee this counsel, and whence I am derived; for while I am alive I shall never be in such slavery, as to forego my own kindred, or forget the laws of our forefathers. Thou hast indignation at me again, and makest a clamor at me, and reproachest me; indeed I cannot deny but I am worthy of worse treatment than all this amounts to, because, in opposition to fate, I make this kind invitation to thee, and endeavor to force deliverance upon those whom God hath condemned. And who is there that does not know what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them, - and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans, and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions."

Here we see the depths of sin into which a nation can fall when its people persistently frustrate God’s grace. Once noble men now reduced to brute beasts, behaving like savages towards their own countrymen. And yet, all that actually pales away in comparison to what else Josephus recorded. But first, be reminded of what Jesus said to these rebellious and stiff-necked Jews.

Matthew 24:19 - And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Josephus - Wars Book 6 - Chap.3 - para. 3 & 4

ANOTHER DESCRIPTION OF THE

TERRIBLE FAMINE THAT WAS IN THE CITY

3. Now of those that perished by famine in the city, the number was prodigious, and the miseries they underwent were unspeakable; for if so much as the shadow of any kind of food did any where appear, a war was commenced presently, and the dearest friends fell a fighting one with another about it, snatching from each other the most miserable supports of life. Nor would men believe that those who were dying had no food, but the robbers would search them when they were expiring, lest any one should have concealed food in their bosoms, and counterfeited dying; nay, these robbers gaped for want, and ran about stumbling and staggering along like mad dogs, and reeling against the doors of the houses like drunken men; they would also, in the great distress they were in, rush into the very same houses two or three times in one and the same day. Moreover, their hunger was so intolerable, that it obliged them to chew every thing, while they gathered such things as the most sordid animals would not touch, and endured to eat them; nor did they at length abstain from girdles and shoes; and the very leather which belonged to their shields they pulled off and gnawed: the very wisps of old hay became food to some; and some gathered up fibres, and sold a very small weight of them for four Attic [drachmae]. But why do I describe the shameless impudence that the famine brought on men in their eating inanimate things, while I am going to relate a matter of fact, the like to which no history relates, either among the Greeks or Barbarians . . .

4. There was a certain woman that dwelt beyond Jordan, her name was Mary; her father was Eleazar, of the village Bethezob, which signifies the house of Hyssop. She was eminent for her family and her wealth, and had fled away to Jerusalem with the rest of the multitude, and was with them besieged therein at this time. The other effects of this woman had been already seized upon, such I mean as she had brought with her out of Perea, and removed to the city. What she had treasured up besides, as also what food she had contrived to save, had been also carried off by the rapacious guards, who came every day running into her house for that purpose. This put the poor woman into a very great passion, and by the frequent reproaches and imprecations she east at these rapacious villains, she had provoked them to anger against her; but none of them, either out of the indignation she had raised against herself, or out of commiseration of her case, would take away her life; and if she found any food, she perceived her labors were for others, and not for herself; and it was now become impossible for her any way to find any more food, while the famine pierced through her very bowels and marrow, when also her passion was fired to a degree beyond the famine itself; nor did she consult with anything but with her passion and the necessity she was in. She then attempted a most unnatural thing; and snatching up her son, who was a child sucking at her breast, she said, "O thou miserable infant! for whom shall I preserve thee in this war, this famine, and this sedition? As to the war with the Romans, if they preserve our lives, we must be slaves. This famine also will destroy us, even before that slavery comes upon us. Yet are these seditious rogues more terrible than both the other. Come on; be thou my food, and be thou a fury to these seditious varlets, and a by-word to the world, which is all that is now wanting to complete the calamities of us Jews." As soon as she had said this, she slew her son, and then roasted him, and eat the one half of him, and kept the other half by her concealed. Upon this the seditious came in presently, and smelling the horrid scent of this food, they threatened her that they would cut her throat immediately if she did not show them what food she had gotten ready. She replied that she had saved a very fine portion of it for them, and withal uncovered what was left of her son. Hereupon they were seized with a horror and amazement of mind, and stood astonished at the sight, when she said to them, "This is mine own son, and what hath been done was mine own doing! Come, eat of this food; for I have eaten of it myself! Do not you pretend to be either more tender than a woman, or more compassionate than a mother; but if you be so scrupulous, and do abominate this my sacrifice, as I have eaten the one half, let the rest be reserved for me also." After which those men went out trembling, being never so much aftrighted at any thing as they were at this, and with some difficulty they left the rest of that meat to the mother. Upon which the whole city was full of this horrid action immediately; and while every body laid this miserable case before their own eyes, they trembled, as if this unheard of action had been done by themselves. So those that were thus distressed by the famine were very desirous to die, and those already dead were esteemed happy, because they had not lived long enough either to hear or to see such miseries.

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The seven year treaty, true or false? False.

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