The seven year Peace treaty, is it true or false ?

[BlindSeeker]

12 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

The one 'seven' is NEVER termed the "Tribulation Period" in the Bible.

That was my point....

[Marcus O'Reillius]

8 hours ago, WilliamL said:

I was pressed for time on a library computer, and quoted a bit too hastily: more accurate translation, "your people shall be delivered, all [those] having been found being written in the book." Yes, those written in this book/record of the saints will later include the Church; but that is not the antecedent of "your Daniel's people" in this passage. Rather, the two concluding participles are in the past tense, not the future. You are imposing a meaning on the text about the Church being Daniel's people that is simply not there. Gabriel is speaking to Daniel about the Israelite people of his time. To the OT prophets, the Church was a mystery never revealed, because that revelation was saved for Paul to bring forth.

First of all, let's put the relevant verse up in context:

Daniel 11:40 "At the end time the king of the South will collide with him, and the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, with horsemen and with many ships; and he will enter countries, overflow them and pass through. 41 He will also enter the Beautiful Land, and many countries will fall; but these will be rescued out of his hand: Edom, Moab and the foremost of the sons of Ammon. 42 Then he will stretch out his hand against other countries, and the land of Egypt will not escape. 43 But he will gain control over the hidden treasures of gold and silver and over all the precious things of Egypt; and Libyans and Ethiopians will follow at his heels. 44 But rumors from the East and from the North will disturb him, and he will go forth with great wrath to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch the tents of his royal pavilion between the seas and the beautiful Holy Mountain; yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.  12:1 Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

Now let's look at the definition of antecedent:

Grammar. a word, phrase, or clause, usually a substantive, that is replaced by a pronoun or other substitute later, or occasionally earlier,in the same or in another, usually subsequent, sentence. In Jane lost a glove and she can't find it, Jane is the antecedent of she and glove is the antecedent of it.

Now let's look at another facet of grammar which is on display here in Daniel 12:1 twice - which I have highlighted in purple:

An adjective clause is simply a group of words with a subject and a verb that provide a description. The clause starts with a pronoun such as who, whom, that, or which or an adverb such as when, where and why.

 

There is no antecedent to "your people" in Daniel 12:1.  You are simply grammatically incorrect in identifying the type of language being used.
"Your people" is not a pronoun which replaces another noun.

What is happening in both instances in Daniel 12:1 is that "the great prince" and "your people" are further described which here defines WHO they are.
The clause begins with "everyone who" - then modifies "your people" = so we can know who is rescued.

"AT THAT TIME" - refers to the previous action in 11:45 - which is replicated in Luke 21:20
It is describing the time of the end, which is also how the futuristic portion of Daniel 11:40 starts off in describing end-time actions.
Furthermore, the rescue happens at that time too: the end mentioned in 11:40.
And WHO is being rescued when Jesus comes again?
US.

Daniel 12:1-2 is the first of five times the Bible mentions two resurrections to the spiritual realm.  The first is always just for the "Living" and the second one includes both "Living" and "Dead".

In addition, and finally, Michael, which means "who is like God", also stands guard over the "sons of your people" which also goes forward in time.
And in Revelation 12:17, the Elect, who are the true believers in Christianity (some in the church are not going to Heaven), are also defined as being the "offspring" of the woman which symbolically is Israel.
 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Daniel 9:24-27 refers to Daniel's people.
That set of people is not defined by Gabriel.
Daniel's people can be referred to in many ways:
...1. The exiles.  Jews do not put the book of Daniel in with the prophets because he was not in "the land."
...2. Jews.  This is how most look at Daniel.
...3. Saved.  This would be the wider collection of people who are "in the Book."

As a matter of interpretation, many people like to define Daniel's as being the Jews, and so exclude the Elect, who are the true Church, from the seventy 'sevens' and most importantly the one 'seven' which they mistakenly call the "Tribulation Period" - because they want to avoid this particular period of time.

However, in the book of Daniel, his people are defined by the Man in Linen, who is not just an Angel, because Daniel falls down before Him in 10:9, and He doesn't admonish Daniel for adopting a position of worship before Him like the Angel does to John in Revelation 19:10.

It is the Man in Linen who defines Daniel's people as everyone who is in the Book.
This is an adjective clause modifying Daniel's people which is more inclusive than saying Daniel's people are just Jews.
The adjective clause the Man in Linen uses includes the Elect, the true believers in the church.

This Biblical definition, where Scripture interprets Scripture, means that the message of Daniel 9:24-27 is also for us.
And buttressing this point is the very important last Discourse of Jesus on the Mount of Olives which specifically refers back to Daniel so as to answer the Disciple's question of 'when Jesus will return.'
So we should pay particular attention to Daniel 9:27 - as it gives us important information we need as the end-times approach.

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

12 hours ago, WilliamL said:

"your people shall be delivered, all [those] having been found being written in the book." Yes, those written in this book/record of the saints will later include the Church; but that is not the antecedent of "your Daniel's people" in this passage. Rather, the two concluding participles are in the past tense, not the future. ...

 

...There is no antecedent to "your people" in Daniel 12:1.  You are simply grammatically incorrect in identifying the type of language being used.
"Your people" is not a pronoun which replaces another noun.

Again you have misunderstood what I was saying, which again I did say poorly. One more time: w hat I meant to say is that "your people" is not the antecedent of the Church, rather it is of "all." Both speaking of Israelites, not the Church, which at this time did not exist. Whereas you were saying -- correct me if I am wrong -- that the future Church will also be "your [Daniel's] people." And again I say, that is not born out by the context.

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

"AT THAT TIME" - refers to the previous action in 11:45 - which is replicated in Luke 21:20

In this we disagree also. Luke 21:20 --"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near" -- is part of Jesus' response the the disciples' question about "when will these things be" that "the days will come in which not one stone [of the Temple] shall be left upon another." Luke 21:5-7 That complete destruction of the Temple took place in 70 AD, not in the "time of the end" when Daniel 11:45 takes place.

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

And WHO is being rescued when Jesus comes again?
US.

Not just us/the Church, but also us/Israel-bloodline/Daniel's people, both of which include those to be taken up, and those to remain upon the earth.

 

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Daniel 9:24-27 refers to Daniel's people. That set of people is not defined by Gabriel. Daniel's people can be referred to in many ways...

But Daniel made it abundantly clear who "his people" were earlier in the chapter -- "my people Israel," "the men of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel." 9:20, 7 For you to say that Gabriel then came along in the midst of Daniel's prayer for his people, and changed the whole meaning of that term without telling Daniel, is more than a stretch.

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

So we should pay particular attention to Daniel 9:27 - as it gives us important information we need as the end-times approach.

Daniel 9:27 was completely fulfilled in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem, "in the midst of" the 7-year Jewish War of 66-73.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Parallel accounts is a way of communicating often found in the Bible.
This method of writing gives a broad overview,
and then a detailed version repeating a crucial part of the first.

The two creation accounts starting off the book of Genesis display this type of parallel construction in Biblical writing.
First we have the broad overview going through the six days of creation.
Then we have the detailed view of God's interaction with Man and Woman which sets the stage for these crucial relationships.

In the Matthew's version of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus uses parallel construction in answering when He will come again. 
In verses 24:4-14 He gives a broad overview which Jesus concludes with: "and then the end will come."
He then starts again with a detailed portion in verses 24:15-31 starting with the (midpoint) abomination and goes to the gathering up (on the Day of the Lord).
In all, Jesus gives us 5 specific and unique events and the order in which they come.
And the Day of the Lord with its attendant 'gathering up' signifies the end of their time on the earth for the Elect.

So one way to know when parallel writing is being used is when events are repeated in what seems to be a linear account.
In chapters 11 through 13 of the book of Revelation, there are five instances where one-half of the one 'seven' are mentioned.
Now there are not 17 1/2 years of the one 'seven'; there are only 7 "prophetic" years (360 days each) - i.e. parallel accounts have been used.

In my view, Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) represent the broad overview.
Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive) is the detailed portion representing just the one 'seven.'

Likewise in Rev 11:13 and 11:19 we see a Great Earthquake, which comes at the "end".
In addition, the "end" of the one 'seven' can be seen in Rev 16:17-21 which imputes a Great Earthquake because of the leveling of the earth found in v.20.
Another "end" can be found in parallel to the battle of Armageddon of chapter 16 in Rev 19:19.  Christ Jesus defeats them and they are judged (just as is said in Rev 11:18a)  
In all, we can find 4 "ends" to the time of God's Wrath with the final desolation of an earth-leveling (no mountains) earthquake.

Rather than have four repetitions, where God's Wrath is repeated over and over, parallel accounts are evidenced and manifested by the repetition.
What you are reading are various viewpoints which are needed to show the various facets of the end - because each has a purpose: information to impart.

-------------------------------------------------------------

In the message Gabriel gives Daniel, there is a repeated event: the "end".

This repetition means that Gabriel is using parallel construction to impart information.

Like other parallel construction in Biblical writing,
First there is the broad overview: Daniel 9:25-26.
Then there is the detailed portion: Daniel 9:27.

So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty- two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty- two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. (NASB)

Three things here:
1. The seven and the sixty-two 'seven's are linked by a conjunction in the Hebrew - they run consecutively.
2. Gabriel sets three conditions which happen after the sixty-two 'sevens'
...a. The Messiah being cut off (karat), i.e. Jesus' crucifixion.
...b. The destruction of the city and the sanctuary
...c. Wars continue until the "end".
3. The "end" is set.  "Its end" which comes quickly (like a flood) is the end of the whole seventy 'sevens'.

Gabriel gives a broad overview which leads up to the "end" of it all - the whole of the seventy 'sevens'.
The Bible is linear in its perspective of time.  There is a beginning and an end.  
Not so with most other religions of antiquity which were circular and repeated their cycle forever.
Now to the detailed portion:

27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

The pouring out of God's desolations represents the end of the one 'seven'.  
It spells out the doom to the anti-Christ figure.
The Wrath of God revealed in the book of Revelation takes the form of physical conditions on and in the earth which make life perish.
And the detailed parallel account of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16 spell out exactly how these desolations are poured out.
That wording about "pouring" is not coincidental.

In Daniel 9:27, Gabriel gives us 3 specific and unique events and the sequence order in which they come:
1. The 'covenant with many' - which is not a simple, nice, positive "confirmation" despite the KJV translation of gabar.
2. The midpoint Abomination(s) Desolation.
3. The complete destruction of the one who makes desolate - or better yet: the desolator.

The point of all this is to show that the end of Daniel 9:26 and the end of Daniel 9:27 are the same.

They both end with the "end".

They are set in parallel.

Therefore, before the one 'seven' can be said to have ended, all war must cease.
As war has been a continual state of mankind for the last 2000 years, with some three dozen wars taking place right now:
The one 'seven' has not concluded - indeed - it has not yet even begun.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Any attempt to say in some Preterist fashion that the "end" of one or the other has already come conflicts with conditions set forth in Bible prophecy which I call "Prophetic Facts."

The fact is, that "War will continue to the end."
God said it through Gabriel.
As the Bible is true, and God is truth - we have a "FACT".

And since it is also a fact that war continues, and as Jesus said, "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars," and this has been the case for the last few decades as well! - We have NOT seen the end come with the destruction of the city and the sanctuary in the First Jewish Revolt.

Why is the city and the sanctuary even mentioned as one of three conditions which happen after the sixty-two 'sevens'?
Because it points, as does other prophecy, notably from the book of Daniel, to the source for the future 'prince who shall come' - the anti-Christ.

The destruction of the Temple was started by the Zealots - the Jews.  They set it on fire.
The Roman soldiers, enraged in battle, disregarded Titus' orders to put the fire out!
In the end, and in typical Roman fashion, they pull the whole thing down stone by stone.
After the Second Jewish Revolt - Rome would attempt to tear the entire nation of Israel down by:
1. Scattering its people, and
2. Renaming the whole thing Palestine.

And these two Jewish Revolts (and a third between them) registered so little on the scale of human conflict that they do not interrupt what history has come to regard as the "Roman Peace" or Pax Romana.

That's right.  Rather than be the worst ever, as some Preterists would lead you to believe, these conflicts didn't make a blip on the radar screen of warfare.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

So when anyone tries to tell you, it's all been accomplished - compare what they say to what the Bible says and not how what they say conflicts with what it says.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 5/5/2016 at 10:35 AM, WilliamL said:

Again you have misunderstood what I was saying, which again I did say poorly. One more time: w hat I meant to say is that "your people" is not the antecedent of the Church, rather it is of "all." Both speaking of Israelites, not the Church, which at this time did not exist. Whereas you were saying -- correct me if I am wrong -- that the future Church will also be "your [Daniel's] people." And again I say, that is not born out by the context.

And again, in context I will disagree: Daniel 12:1 is not set in the distant past, but in the future.
In the context of Daniel 11:40-12:1, despite the use of the past tense in telling a story, it is prophetic and not historic.
This means who Daniel's people are - is not limited to the Jews.
Daniel's people are the ones in the Book: the Elect - us.

Lets's look at some specific context rather than just make a blanket statement that it is not borne out by the context and then not show it.

The Man in Linen says:
"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued."

1. Now at that time, refers back to what He just said about the King of the North in verse 11:45, and "Who is like God" arises.
In first century, by the time of the First Jewish Revolt, Jesus had not only arisen before, He also had ascended and did not respond to the Zealot's rebellion.

In Daniel 12:1, the action of the King of the North becomes the tripwire for God's involvement.
This is a classical hero-story where the villain advances the plot and the hero only "arises" to set it right.
This did not happen in the seventh and eight decades of the first century.

- And added to that, we have no historical basis for the King of the North past described in 11:36-39, nor action which comports to 11:40-45.  And if you insist there is, then the burden is on you to show how whatever you might want to point to satisfies every "fact" in the prophetic record of Daniel chapter 11:36-45.  ...And be sure to show where "Who is like God" arose afterward.  This I know you cannot do.  Just like how I know that Preterists cannot show me chapter and verse on the what and how Jesus made a Biblical, God-ordained, quid-pro-quo covenant at the inception of His Ministry.

2. "there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time;" - this statement by the Man in Linen sets the stage for what is to follow.
Here He describes an event which will occur.

Now let's compare this second point to what Jesus said would transpire at the "end" in the Olivet Discourse:
Mt 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Jesus makes the Great Tribulation a specific and unique event because not only is it greater than has ever occurred but also that it will never be repeated!
This is just like the Man in Linen said in Dan 12:1 in the first part, but He doesn't go as far as Jesus' statement of never occurring again
- but an omission of a fact is not a commission of an error, nor does it preclude Daniel 12:1 as being the same as Mt 24:21!

For more similarity between what is happening in Daniel 12:1 which indicates its context is set in the time of the "end" - here is a second similarity:

3. "At that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued."
Again, the adjective clause to "your people" defines "your people", referring to Daniel specifically, as those found written in the book.
In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus said: 
29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days... (Day of the Lord ensues) ...31 and they will gather together His elect.

The one-two sequence of Daniel 12:1's 2nd and 3rd conditions, set in context - matches the end-times scenario Jesus sets forth in the Olivet Discourse.
1. A time of great distress - greater than ever.
2. Rescue - salvation - redemption - 'gathering up' - or as Paul said it: harpazo - the Rapture.

And in a companion in the Synoptic Gospel to the Olivet Discourse, in Luke, he gives us another facet of this time:
20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. ...23 for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; ...28 But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Here Luke aptly marries three events which happen in Daniel 11:45 and 12:1.
1. The surrounding of Jerusalem = encampment between the seas and the Holy Mountain, which is Mount Moriah in Jesusalem.
2. A time of great distress
3. The redemption of the Elect.

Daniel's people in 12:1 are the same people, the Elect of Mt 24:21, and his people are the Church of Lk 21:28.
All three are describing an end-time event: the rescue of the God's Elect, those He has selected, out of the field of this world to the barn of Heaven.

[WilliamL]

6 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

1) And again, in context I will disagree: Daniel 12:1 is not set in the distant past, but in the future.
In the context of Daniel 11:40-12:1, despite the use of the past tense in telling a story, it is prophetic and not historic.

2)This means who Daniel's people are - is not limited to the Jews.

3) Daniel's people are the ones in the Book: the Elect - us.

1) Which is what I've always said in this string and forum, but you've missed it.

2) And this is where we disagree. Daniel told us who is people were in Daniel 9, as I quoted above:

On 5/5/2016 at 8:35 AM, WilliamL said:

..."my people Israel," "the men of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel." 9:20, 7 For you to say that Gabriel then came along in the midst of Daniel's prayer for his people, and changed the whole meaning of that term without telling Daniel, is more than a stretch.

Israel is a soul-in-the-blood race. The Church is a spiritual body. When you try to make the two the same, you confuse the nephesh and the ruach.

3) The elect of Daniel's people are in the Book of Life. The elect of the Church are in the same book. That does not make them the very same people, it only means that they have the same opportunity through faith to be in the Book.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

It's not who Daniel said his people were, but God's perspective on who He defines as "Daniel's people" are that makes the difference of applicability on the seventy 'sevens'.

God's definition, as I have shown from the Man in Linen, and Jesus, then sets Gabriel's announcement, because as a messenger, he can only convey what God has told him.

[douggg]

There will not be a 7 year peace treaty, that many interprete as being the covenant confirmed for 7 years in Daniel 9:27.

But there will be a false messianic age, which people will be deceived into thinking as being a long term peace and safety situation.

Following Gog/Magog, are 7 years of burning the war implements - which those seven years are the same seven years in Daniel 9:27.

Following Gog/Magog, the little horn will arrive in the middle east with a large EU army securing the oil fields.    The Jews will believe that the little horn person is their messiah and he is anointed the King of Israel... making him the Antichrist at that point.

The person oversees the reading of the law to nation of Israel, from the temple mount, to begin the 7 years, confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant as the Jews are expecting in their interpretation of Jeremiah 31, the new covenant is as "renewal".

Here is the seven years in the bible, so you will know what it is.

Deuteronomy 31:

9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,

11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

12 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

13 And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

________________________________________________________________________________In a reply to me from a Jewish (Judaism) countermissionary site, Messiahtruth.com.    A reply to me, about the requirement of Moses above to be done on a 7 year cycle.    Uri, is highly qualified as an expert on Jewish belief and expectations.       The reading of the law to the nation of Israel has not been done for 2000 years because Israel has not control the temple mount - from which the reading is to be done, every 7 years.

Douggg wrote:

---

And if I might add, Uri, one of my favorites from an end times perspective.

Deuteronomy 31:
9Then Moses wrote this Torah, and gave it to the priests, the descendants of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel.

10Then, Moses commanded them, saying, "At the end of [every] seven years, at an appointed time, in the Festival of Succoth, [after] the year of release

11When all Israel comes to appear before the Lord, your God, in the place He will choose, you shall read this Torah before all Israel, in their ears.

12Assemble the people: the men, the women, and the children, and your stranger in your cities, in order that they hear, and in order that they learn and fear the Lord, your God, and they will observe to do all the words of this Torah.

13And their children, who did not know, will hear and learn to fear the Lord, your God, all the days that you live on the land, to which you are crossing the Jordan, to possess.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Douggg, It is a fact that this ritual was observed when there was a Temple standing in Jerusalem - both the First Temple and the Second Temple - and its observance will be resumed in the messianic era when the Third Temple, the one described in Ezekiel 40-48 and to be built by the promised Jewish Messiah, will be standing in Jerusalem, at which time the current issues with the Temple Mount will no longer exist.

UriYosef

 

 

   

Edited May 14, 2016 by douggg