what does "growth" look like for a believer?

[post]

4 minutes ago, rjp34652 said:

 

Growth is a secular word.  When used to describe the process of divine sanctification it causes confusion and misunderstanding.  There is no 'growth' in spiritual terms.

grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
(2 Peter 3:18) 

like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation
(1 Peter 2:2) 

Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
(1 Timothy 4:15) 

Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity
(Hebrews 6:1) 

We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater
(2 Thessalonians 1:3) 

from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
(Ephesians 4:16) 

not boasting beyond our measure, that is, in other men's labors, but with the hope that as your faith grows, we will be, within our sphere, enlarged even more by you, so as to preach the gospel even to the regions beyond you, and not to boast in what has been accomplished in the sphere of another.
(2 Corinthians 10:15-16)

etc. 

 

[rjp34652]

8 minutes ago, post said:

grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
(2 Peter 3:18) 

like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation
(1 Peter 2:2) 

Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
(1 Timothy 4:15) 

Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity
(Hebrews 6:1) 

We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater
(2 Thessalonians 1:3) 

from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
(Ephesians 4:16) 

not boasting beyond our measure, that is, in other men's labors, but with the hope that as your faith grows, we will be, within our sphere, enlarged even more by you, so as to preach the gospel even to the regions beyond you, and not to boast in what has been accomplished in the sphere of another.
(2 Corinthians 10:15-16)

etc. 

 

When you put a corpse in its grave, what has become of this "growth"?    

Every scripture you quote encourages the believer unto the process of sanctification, which is spiritual.   Books and learning and physical habits all perish as the body dies.   The image of Christ is eternal.

Your post smells like something the publisher of a costly religious book series would promote.   Books and learning are good, but they do not survive the death of the body except perhaps as a donation to a library as part of the last will and testimony of the deceased.

Sanctification is eternal.    Learning is temporary.   Growth is a deceit of the secular world and promotes nothing except pointless religious programs and endless appeals for money to sustain bankrupt ministries.   Show me the value of 'growth' and I'll show you a corrupt boil on the flesh of the church.

Sanctification is separation unto Christ and no course work can possibly substitute for it.  It is pure and holy as no book series can claim.    Some deny the efficacy of the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, but it is said that God cannot be pleased without it.

The religious "growth" industry in America is highly profitable, albeit corrupt to the bone.   Christian publishers as a rule are so crooked that when they die they are screwed into the ground.

Beware those that promote death as a religious process.   

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[post]

3 minutes ago, rjp34652 said:

Every scripture you quote encourages the believer unto the process of sanctification, which is spiritual. 

in that case then, isn't every scripture i put encouraging spiritual "growth" rather than physical-- contrary to your previous post? 

Peter & Paul didn't seem to have the same problem with the word that you do -- that's all i meant to point out. unless you mean that they "cause confusion" by what they wrote.

do you think that once we believe, that's it? there is no "maturity" or "completeness" to push forward to? does the work begun in us not continue? are you perfect in this moment, with no room or reason for improvement in any area? 
i'm not trying to sell books here, just encouraging us not to be stagnant or complacent when we examine ourselves in the faith. 

[thereselittleflower]

4 hours ago, rjp34652 said:

 

Growth is a secular word.  When used to describe the process of divine sanctification it causes confusion and misunderstanding.  There is no 'growth' in spiritual terms.  

Growth ends with the termination of puberty.   Growth is a physical term.   In Christianity one is TRANSFORMED into the likeness or image of Christ.  The process is entirely spiritual in nature.   There are indeed times when the physical body is affected by the transformation, but as a whole there isn't any growth in physical terms.   It is spiritual and of a right ought to be referred to in Biblical terms - sanctification "separation unto Christ".   

Separation is not growth.  It is death.  One dies to the self, to the mind and to the lusts of the body.  One puts an end to worldly things for the glory of Christ.  The worldly minded man cannot separate unto Christ, but he CAN grow in licentiousness and sin.

Sanctification conforms the spirit to Christ even as the body dies.  This is not growth by any definition of the word.  Sanctification is separation - a living sacrifice to Christ.  It divides like a knife in the life of the believer.

The follower of Jesus should separate himself from the things of the world, especially those that attempt to redefine spiritual values and matters.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Growth does not end with the termination of puberty  

Growth continues both physically (for a time - the brain does not stop maturing until late in one's 20's for instance), mentally and spiritually.

Christians grow spiritually as well.

• The Lord is Good      1 Peter 2
  1Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, 2like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, 3if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.

 

This is definitely talking about our spiritual growth comparing it to what one experiences as a human being growing from a newborn baby to adulthood.

Here are other translations of this verse:

• New International Version
  Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,
  
  New Living Translation
  Like newborn babies, you must crave pure spiritual milk so that you will grow into a full experience of salvation. Cry out for this nourishment,
  
  English Standard Version
  Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation—
  
  Berean Study Bible
  Like newborn infants, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,
  
  Berean Literal Bible
  like newborn babies, crave pure reasonable milk, so that by it you may grow up in respect to salvation,
  
  New American Standard Bible 
  like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,
  
  King James Bible
  As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
  
  Holman Christian Standard Bible
  Like newborn infants, desire the pure spiritual milk, so that you may grow by it for your salvation,
  
  International Standard Version
  Like newborn babies, thirst for the pure milk of the word so that by it you may grow in your salvation. 
  
  NET Bible
  And yearn like newborn infants for pure, spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up to salvation,
  
  Aramaic Bible in Plain English
  And be as nursing infants, and yearn for the word as for pure and spiritual milk by which you shall grow strong for life,
  
  GOD'S WORD® Translation
  Desire God's pure word as newborn babies desire milk. Then you will grow in your salvation.
  
  New American Standard 1977 
  like newborn babes, long for the pure milk of the word, that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,
  
  Jubilee Bible 2000
  as newborn babes, desire the rational milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby in health;
  
  King James 2000 Bible
  As newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby:
  
  American King James Version
  As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that you may grow thereby:
  
  American Standard Version
  as newborn babes, long for the spiritual milk which is without guile, that ye may grow thereby unto salvation;
  
  Douay-Rheims Bible
  As newborn babes, desire the rational milk without guile, that thereby you may grow unto salvation: 
  
  Darby Bible Translation
  as newborn babes desire earnestly the pure mental milk of the word, that by it ye may grow up to salvation,
  
  English Revised Version
  as newborn babes, long for the spiritual milk which is without guile, that ye may grow thereby unto salvation;
  
  Webster's Bible Translation
  As new-born babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
  
  Weymouth New Testament
  Thirst, like newly-born infants, for pure milk for the soul, that by it you may grow up to salvation;
  
  World English Bible
  as newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the Word, that you may grow thereby,
  
  Young's Literal Translation
  as new-born babes the word's pure milk desire ye, that in it ye may grow,

 

[rjp34652]

13 hours ago, post said:

in that case then, isn't every scripture i put encouraging spiritual "growth" rather than physical-- contrary to your previous post? 

Peter & Paul didn't seem to have the same problem with the word that you do -- that's all i meant to point out. unless you mean that they "cause confusion" by what they wrote.

do you think that once we believe, that's it? there is no "maturity" or "completeness" to push forward to? does the work begun in us not continue? are you perfect in this moment, with no room or reason for improvement in any area? 
i'm not trying to sell books here, just encouraging us not to be stagnant or complacent when we examine ourselves in the faith. 

Consider the lillies of the field.  Not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these.
It is all God's doing. None of them spent a second of time examining themselves...............
 
Self-examination is a major principle in Communist philosophy as well as multi-national corporations.  Looking inward is a trap of the devil.  All you'll find when you gaze at yourself is an imperfect reflection.  The Bible encourages the Christain to follow Christ.  Anything else is mirrors and smoke - doctrines of demons.

The American church has come to embrace all things secular.  Differences between churches and secular organizations are virtually indistinguishable.  This is true concerning the buzz word "GROWTH".  Christians are called to be separate from the world, not to embrace its buzz words or to participate in its conceit. 

The word GROWTH is not used today as a reference to sanctification (why not use THAT word?).  Instead GROWTH is employed in the context of self-improvement.  It means the same in church as it does in the corporate world. Growth methods and procedures are employed by large secular organizations to encourage individuals to assume a standard of acceptable behavior.  It's a cookie-cutter education in propaganda and a doctrine of self-importance within the context of the corporate whole.  Procedures are interchangeable and can just as easily be used to promote Islam or the administration of General Motors, Inc.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Biblical spiritual principle of the sanctification of the believer in Christ. 

One can quote scripture all day long and all that will be accomplished will be a reiteration of spiritual truth.  It's a devilish smokescreen to hide what's really happening in churches.  What IS being promoted is 'growth ministry' - a financial trap that church administrators use to squeeze money out of their congregations (who already pay too much for everything else).   

The current sales pitch for "growth ministries" insists that individual Christians participate in lectures, classes and activities designed for self-improvement.  In northern California, Presbyterian churches are charging fees for 'Bible studies'.  In north Georgia, Methodist churches are doing the same thing.  These churches CHARGE TUITION FEES as well as textbook fees for their bogus courses.  

---> The courses themselves are not accredited, thus they are entirely worthless in terms of legitimate academic credentials. <--- (1)

In other words, snake oil.

However they DO benefit the church bank account.  I've been there.  I've seen it.   Don't tell me it isn't happening.  It's a money making fraud perpetrated by religious administrators who seek support for their crumbling institutions.

Who do tuition and textbook fees benefit?  They benefit the church bank account and they benefit religious publishers.  It doesn't do squat for the poor soul who think's he's getting something for his time and money.  He isn't.

In most cases the material is reiterated grade school or middle school level dogma/propaganda.   I know.  I've seen it.  So has the reader if truth be told.  There is a common familiarity to all of it.  Spiritual milk instead of meat.  Buzz words are employed liberally to reinforce corporate ideals, not to encourage Christians in seeking truth.
  
My formal studies in theology and church history reached the Masters Degree level at a noted seminary in New York.  I am currently employed by a local State College and am familiar with legitimate educational materials and programs.  I know the subject matter.  I have written and seen published several books, magazine articles and short stories.  I know the publishing business from personal experience.  It's all about money.  It always has been and always will be.  The church has corrupted itself and GROWTH MINISTRY is but one symptom.

My purpose is to refocus the reader's attention to the very real work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer - sanctification.  While quotations of scripture, with enhancement of the word 'growth', are not untrue - neither are they accurate in the modern church.  The church in many cases is spiritually dead and GROWTH MINISTRY is evidence of it.

GROWTH is a money matter in the secular world as well as the American church.  If properly managed, the god rackett is a good business.  I was taught that principle in seminary.(2)  

If you believe that money doesn't influence Christian education or that modern GROWTH MINISTRY, like the gnostic heresy that preceeded it(3), isn't a con job - then you are sadly misinformed.

Devotion to Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer cannot be packaged like cheap soap from China.

Does a rose go to school to learn how to be beautiful?   Does anyone presume to know how God creates such beauty?   

Beware the snake oil salesman who trades hard earned cash for GROWTH.  Only the Holy Spirit can supply the real thing.  He does it freely. 

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft....  

(1) Educational accreditation... 
is a type of quality assurance process under which services and operations of educational institutions or programs are evaluated by an external body to determine if applicable standards are met. If standards are met, accredited status is granted by the appropriate agency.

In most countries the function of educational accreditation is conducted by a government organization, such as a Ministry of Education. In the United States a quality assurance process exists that is independent of government and performed by private non-profit organizations.  The U.S. accreditation process was developed in the late 19th century and early 20th century after educational institutions perceived a need for improved coordination and articulation between secondary and post-secondary educational institutions, along with standardization of requirements between the two levels.
- Wikipedia

There is NO accreditation process or procedure among Christian churches in America.  Therefore there is no quality assurance in terms of doctrine or adherence to scripture in any of them.
I am employed by a local State College that participates diligently in the accreditation process.  I know my subject matter.  
- Choir Loft

(2) The instutution was a merger of Episcopal, Methodist and Baptist leadership.

(3) Secret language, special 'education' and priviledged membership are aspects of the gnostic heresy.

[de1929]

On 1/17/2016 at 6:16 PM, post said:

the scripture above is one answer to the question - 'what does growth look like for us as believers?' 

what more can you add? 
when we examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith, what should we see as positive examples of growing in the faith? 
how can we foster it - or prevent it? 
what should we do, and what should we be seeing in ourselves as becoming mature and complete in Christ? 

i would like to get many perspectives from all of you, because i believe that the gifts of God for us are for our mutual edification - so i know that you all have things in you from God to help build us up. i think this question is a good one for us to have in mind, even if you don't have a reply to post. thanks for sharing  

CHRIST is the author and finisher of our faith. So the benchmark is from CHRIST. 

Most employee has annual review and performance. The questions, when did you have your last annual review with CHRIST ?

[other one]

15 minutes ago, de1929 said:

CHRIST is the author and finisher of our faith. So the benchmark is from CHRIST. 

Most employee has annual review and performance. The questions, when did you have your last annual review with CHRIST ?

yesterday....

[de1929]

6 minutes ago, other one said:

yesterday....

Did HE shared with you that churches is far from ready but HE wanna come for the 2nd time ?

[post]

12 hours ago, rjp34652 said:

Self-examination is a major principle in Communist philosophy as well as multi-national corporations.  Looking inward is a trap of the devil.  All you'll find when you gaze at yourself is an imperfect reflection.  The Bible encourages the Christain to follow Christ.  Anything else is mirrors and smoke - doctrines of demons.

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves.
Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? — unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
(2 Corinthians 13:5) 

 

[post]

12 hours ago, rjp34652 said:

Self-examination is a major principle in Communist philosophy as well as multi-national corporations.  Looking inward is a trap of the devil.  All you'll find when you gaze at yourself is an imperfect reflection.  The Bible encourages the Christain to follow Christ.  Anything else is mirrors and smoke - doctrines of demons.

Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
(1 Corinthians 11:28) 

Let us test and examine our ways, and return to the Lord!
(Lamentations 3:40)

When I think on my ways, I turn my feet to your testimonies
(Psalm 119:59)

Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. 
(Revelation 2:5)

Take care, and keep your soul diligently
(Deuteronomy 4:9)