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Babies and Unborn Children where do they go when they die?


warriorbride

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I learned a lot from your responses! Thank you guys, Godbless! 

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The Bible does not have any direct statements about God's will in the matter of the unborn and children, because people (teenagers and adults) are highly prone to mess with morals and with life itself, and should the truth be known about what God will do for the babies, people would naturally abuse that intention of God, to the fullest extent and create even more suffering and loss. 

When we find out what went on in God's heart all these centuries, we will be sorry for our unbelief in Him and our poor management of infants.

But while we have great sympathy for infants, we ought to know that God has equal affection for adults, and sees the innocent child in every person. He called His rough necked fishermen - "children."

We don't know how much loss God endures, but remembering that death is not a threat to God, it is easily removed. What really disappoints God, is the unfitness for eternal life that people have, and also hold on to, in character and habits. These defects need to be corrected consensually, a work and experience which does not happen overnight. 

 

Entry to heaven is granted on the ability of the individual to assimilate and harmonize with it.

Sinners do not realize how awful they would feel in heaven or in a new earth, neither do they realize where their personality and character will lead them, and what suffering and misery they will not only produce, but endure within. The nature of sin is like a leech which can never have enough. It would be cruel to extend the life of such a mindset, because within a short time, they will find heaven utterly dismal.

God does not arbitrarily withhold eternal life, but in mercy allows sinners to pass away into nothing. An act which is totally foreign and strange to Him, seeing that He gave so much to be able to save all, but the majority do not respond with gratitude or love, which He totally deserves.

It is possible to determine from the Bible what happens to the unborn and infants, after they die, but several pagan doctrines are so thoroughly embedded in the thinking of people, even in 'Bible based' churches, that it is nigh impossible to provide the answers without releasing a barrage of opposition that creates confusion and disgust, to anyone with the sensibilities of a normal person.

To say it very bluntly, all that die, return to dust, they know nothing and are no more. Their breath of life or spirit, returns to the Life source - God. They will not see life again until the resurrection when Christ comes to pick them up, and take them to heaven - with their old body renewed or made new.

For the dead, because they have no consciousness whatsoever, there is no time gap from when they pass out to when they awake, no matter how much time has gone by.

And yes, heaven will be filled with countless children, including the tiny unborn, and they will be taken good care of. Babies which had deformities, will be in perfect shape and health, ready to run and play with the rest. 

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Jesus died for all! Now when the disciples wanted to send the children away He told them not to because their angels are before the Father's throne daily. The Jewish people have the Bar Mitzvah and Bat mitzvah...and Jesus was presented befor the temple when He was 12-13. Is that possibly the beginning of the age of understanding and the age of accountability.

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On January 21, 2016 at 3:57 PM, thereselittleflower said:

Babies are born, as all of us are, separated from God by the fall of man, the wounding of their human nature, called "the sin nature" by many.    They are not guilty of individual sin, but have inherited this spiritual condition of the human race. The question is what happens to babies who die because of this state they are born into.

 

You are free to believe a lie....

BUT - if you choose to employ the Bible as a benchmark for the law of God, for what God intends and what the Kingdom of Heaven is all about, then you must adhere to its precepts.   

Nowhere in the Bible does it say babies are born in sin.  Nowhere.   In contradiction to this errant philosophy, the law of Torah states quite differently that sacrifices for sin do not include babies.   In fact, the sacrifice for the birth of a baby is more of an offering of thanksgiving and praise and celebration unto God.  

Consider the ill logic of the notion that all babies are born into sin.....  If true, then Christ was born into sin as well.   Therefore no one can be saved <- which is an idea that's blatantly wrong on several points.    The ill logic derails at some point in trying to explain away the birth of Christ so as to justify a lie. 

Babies are born without sin according to Torah - the law of Moses, which is STILL a benchmark for righteousness and true doctrine.

If perhaps the reader is used to following a lie, then that is the reader's privilege.   However, it is most definitely not Biblical.  

Above all, PLEASE do not speak to a family who has lost a baby in death and tell them the kid was a wicked sinner and doomed to hell.  Your filthy words will not only proceed forth as a lie of satan, they will confuse and disappoint the grieving parents.   (Satan's purpose, by the way.)  

Wicked doctrine like this is responsible for giving Christianity a bad name - the name of an unforgiving lawless mob who adopts false doctrine instead of the divine law of liberty issued by God.   Blessed be the God of Heaven who's mercies endure forever.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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On January 22, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Qnts2 said:

In Christianity, the theology which is in question here, is the theology of original sin. Judaism does not believe in original sin but rather teaches that babies are born pure. So, there is no teaching in either the Babylonian or Jerusalem Talmud which says babies are born sinners. One other correction. Neither the Babylonian or the Jerusalem Talmud are considered heretical in Judaism. The Babylonian Talmud is more complete and is considered first, unless the Jerusalem Talmud has something which is not contained in the Babylonian Talmud. 

I agree with others. Babies are born with a sin nature and separated from God.

The debate of the legitimacy of which Talmud is heretical can go on for a long time.   The Babylonian Talmud is much longer than the Jerusalem Talmud.  The Kindle version is about 12 thousand pages.   It contains a great deal of information considered occult or spiritist in nature obtained while in Babylon, which is why Jews (and some Christians) consider it heretical.

For example, the Babylonian Talmud contains a detailed description of a ceremony the reader can perform to allow a person to 'see' all the spirits that surround us on all sides.  The ceremony is performed in the person's bedroom before retiring for the night.   When the person awakes in the morning he or she will be able to see all the spirits around them.   It's my understanding that the experience is quite unsettling.  This is NOT the sort of thing that is endorsed by the Jerusalem Talmud, or by any scripture in the Torah, the old testament (prophets major and minor as well as proverbs and psalms and the records of Kings, Chronicles and so on).  It is certainly not endorsed by any Christian denomination that I'm aware of.

The reader may feel that he or she is entitled to accept this record of the Babylonian captivity as sacrosanct, but it is definitely not approved of by any who follow Christ or seek God in a righteous manner.  It has pagan roots and is therefore spiritually toxic.

The doctrine of original sin or human depravity is key to this pagan ideology.   Although there are NO clear threads worthy of note to connect it to the European Reformation period and the doctrines that proceeded out of that period, there are parallels that are too clear and too similar to be circumstantial.   The devil has its influence upon the religions of man wherever this is seen.   It is a primary theme, in fact.

Man is born pure and without sin, but has a tendency to do so as life progresses.   If the pagan demonic idea that man is always predisposed to sin is accepted by the reader, then the logical extension of this fallacy is that no man can ever be saved either by act of man or by God.  Any attempt by God to save man would be futile, since man would ultimately reject such an effort anyway.   This is, of course not true, since Christ has saved millions.   Some other principle must be involved.  That principle is the free will acceptance of Christ as Lord.

Evidence of the exercise of spiritual liberty is evidenced by millions of people who claim Jesus Christ as their Lord and who have come to enjoy the benefits of salvation in their lives and the hope of eternity to come.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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1 hour ago, rjp34652 said:

You are free to believe a lie....

BUT - if you choose to employ the Bible as a benchmark for the law of God, for what God intends and what the Kingdom of Heaven is all about, then you must adhere to its precepts.   

Nowhere in the Bible does it say babies are born in sin.  Nowhere.   In contradiction to this errant philosophy, the law of Torah states quite differently that sacrifices for sin do not include babies.   In fact, the sacrifice for the birth of a baby is more of an offering of thanksgiving and praise and celebration unto God.  

Consider the ill logic of the notion that all babies are born into sin.....  If true, then Christ was born into sin as well.   Therefore no one can be saved <- which is an idea that's blatantly wrong on several points.    The ill logic derails at some point in trying to explain away the birth of Christ so as to justify a lie. 

Babies are born without sin according to Torah - the law of Moses, which is STILL a benchmark for righteousness and true doctrine.

If perhaps the reader is used to following a lie, then that is the reader's privilege.   However, it is most definitely not Biblical.  

Above all, PLEASE do not speak to a family who has lost a baby in death and tell them the kid was a wicked sinner and doomed to hell.  Your filthy words will not only proceed forth as a lie of satan, they will confuse and disappoint the grieving parents.   (Satan's purpose, by the way.)  

Wicked doctrine like this is responsible for giving Christianity a bad name - the name of an unforgiving lawless mob who adopts false doctrine instead of the divine law of liberty issued by God.   Blessed be the God of Heaven who's mercies endure forever.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

We should look at scriptures

 

  • Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

 

 

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4 hours ago, rjp34652 said:

The debate of the legitimacy of which Talmud is heretical can go on for a long time.   The Babylonian Talmud is much longer than the Jerusalem Talmud.  The Kindle version is about 12 thousand pages.   It contains a great deal of information considered occult or spiritist in nature obtained while in Babylon, which is why Jews (and some Christians) consider it heretical.

For example, the Babylonian Talmud contains a detailed description of a ceremony the reader can perform to allow a person to 'see' all the spirits that surround us on all sides.  The ceremony is performed in the person's bedroom before retiring for the night.   When the person awakes in the morning he or she will be able to see all the spirits around them.   It's my understanding that the experience is quite unsettling.  This is NOT the sort of thing that is endorsed by the Jerusalem Talmud, or by any scripture in the Torah, the old testament (prophets major and minor as well as proverbs and psalms and the records of Kings, Chronicles and so on).  It is certainly not endorsed by any Christian denomination that I'm aware of.

The reader may feel that he or she is entitled to accept this record of the Babylonian captivity as sacrosanct, but it is definitely not approved of by any who follow Christ or seek God in a righteous manner.  It has pagan roots and is therefore spiritually toxic.

The doctrine of original sin or human depravity is key to this pagan ideology.   Although there are NO clear threads worthy of note to connect it to the European Reformation period and the doctrines that proceeded out of that period, there are parallels that are too clear and too similar to be circumstantial.   The devil has its influence upon the religions of man wherever this is seen.   It is a primary theme, in fact.

Man is born pure and without sin, but has a tendency to do so as life progresses.   If the pagan demonic idea that man is always predisposed to sin is accepted by the reader, then the logical extension of this fallacy is that no man can ever be saved either by act of man or by God.  Any attempt by God to save man would be futile, since man would ultimately reject such an effort anyway.   This is, of course not true, since Christ has saved millions.   Some other principle must be involved.  That principle is the free will acceptance of Christ as Lord.

Evidence of the exercise of spiritual liberty is evidenced by millions of people who claim Jesus Christ as their Lord and who have come to enjoy the benefits of salvation in their lives and the hope of eternity to come.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The Jerusalem Talmud was written by a group of Rabbis in Jerusalem and the Babylonian written in an area of Persia where Rabbis had gathered. There was greater persecution in Jerusalem, and many of the most learned Rabbis left Jerusalem moving to Persia. The Jerusalem Talmud was never completed, so the Babylonian Talmud is considered of higher authority then the Jerusalem Talmud. Those who reject the Babylonian Talmud, also reject the Jerusalem Talmud. 

In the Babylonian Talmud, are some mystical stories. Relative to the size, it is not many, but they do exist. In Judaism, at various times in history, there was an interest in the more mystical/spiritual things. It did lead to some abuses, and resulted in stricter 'Rabbinical rules' to avoid the worst of the abuses. For a long time, ultra-orthodox Judaism/Hassidic, was frowned upon by other branches of Judaism, as it engaged in some practices rejected by the rest of Judaism. One branch of Hassidim are now viewed as more mainstream today, while another is considered too extreme. 

As far as the doctrine of original sin in Christianity vs Judaism, Judaism does not view it anywhere near the same. In Judaism, it is viewed that there was a loss in the garden of eden, which generally effects all of mankind, it is not considered to be a fall from God. Some would say it lowers man from his previous state and others would say the knowledge of good and evil was necessary to achieve what man must achieve. 

I do not see man as having been born pure after the fall, as man's ejection from the Garden of Eden clearing shows man was now in a fallen state, such that God did not want man eating from the tree of life and living eternally in his less then pure state.  

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5 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

We should look at scriptures

 

  • Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

 

 

For even satan quotes scriptures in order to put men in chains under its power.   It tried this with Christ and it does so with misguided people today who do not hesitate to cripple men and women from seeking the salvation offered by the Most High.  It is said that the disciples of the evil one will do this believing that they are doing God a favor.    They are not, yet they persist in their lies and devious teachings.

You would quote scripture to drive knives into the heart of a grieving mother and father and make them twice as fit for hell as you are yourself.  People like you give Christianity a bad name, yet you will no doubt justify your condemnation of the dead child in your own lies and tell yourself you are right.  

My wife and I lost a child and I thank God that He kept evil people like you away from us at that time for if someone like you had come to us at that time I would certainly have abandoned Christ and the church forever.   You should ask God for forgiveness for your evil ways.  You have no idea how corrupt you are.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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25 minutes ago, rjp34652 said:

For even satan quotes scriptures in order to put men in chains under its power.   It tried this with Christ and it does so with misguided people today who do not hesitate to cripple men and women from seeking the salvation offered by the Most High.  It is said that the disciples of the evil one will do this believing that they are doing God a favor.    They are not, yet they persist in their lies and devious teachings.

You would quote scripture to drive knives into the heart of a grieving mother and father and make them twice as fit for hell as you are yourself.  People like you give Christianity a bad name, yet you will no doubt justify your condemnation of the dead child in your own lies and tell yourself you are right.  

My wife and I lost a child and I thank God that He kept evil people like you away from us at that time for if someone like you had come to us at that time I would certainly have abandoned Christ and the church forever.   You should ask God for forgiveness for your evil ways.  You have no idea how corrupt you are.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

I am very, very sorry for your loss. 

I lost a child to SIDS at 3 months of age.

I know the grief of losing a child.

It is not evil to acknowledge the truth in God's word and to distinguish between the sin nature and actual sin and that all are born separated from God.    It is also not evil to believe that God makes a way for those children who die outside of baptism as mine did.

God has given me assurance that no matter what the best I can imagine for my child, it will be 100 times, 1000 times better.

 

In your grief please do not wrongly accuse others before you understand where they are coming from.

 

 

 

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On 20 January, 2016 at 1:18 AM, bopeep1909 said:

All babies and children go to heaven until the age of accountability.That age may vary but it possibly could be around the age of 13.Until the child is capable of knowing Jesus Christ.

Many and even younger are maried by that time and may have a baby or tow, that makes it very complicated with the suggestion you are making. 

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