Isaiah 45:5 vs Psalm 82:6

[Sister]

On 19/1/2016 at 0:46 AM, ProzacR said:

Explain please.

  Psalms 82:5   They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

  Psalms 82:6   I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

  Psalms 82:7   But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

 

Hi ProzacR

God is just saying, you have become like gods. Men are being idolised, treated as gods.  Eg, actors, singers, sportsmen, religious leaders, authors, politicians etc etc.  All treated and glorified like a god, but they are just men and will die like men. 

They are not gods, because they were created by the most high.

 

[Sister]

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

There is only ONE GOD.  No other.  God created everything through his Word.  The same Word belongs to God, it's his Word, God speaking. 

We come to God through that same Word.  The Word that made us, is the same Word that teaches us.  It's God's Word, belongs to no one else..

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

I never got the problem here because Jesus is saying he is the Son of God right? They are the ones believing he has blasphemed making himself equal in respects to God, when he points out in their own scriptures, "have I not said ye are gods, ye are all CHILDREN of the most high" I always thought that was self explanatory there without needing to focus on the gods stuff so much. Even as Trevor pointed out seated in the Moses seat and how the LORD made him as a god (even unto Pharoah) in that sense of things.

Its just like... lets say the scriptures (as we hold to as truth) read, have I not said ye are gods = "children of the most high" see the equaling done there? (and just there) because Christ come along  (as a man) saying I am the son of God and they say hey, you blaspheme!  You a man just make yourself God, and then he looks at them like howso? Is it not written in your law  I have said, ye are gods (( CHILDREN OF))  the most high? Since Jesus just said, I am the Son of God, so whats their problem? If according to what is written in their own law on this (and according to how Jesus had pointed that verse out to them) which was only pointed out to them in the context of that particular situation. At least thats how Jesus put it into context (which was his own immediate one).

 

 

[Guest]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 7:58 PM, TrevorL said:

 

Greetings WilliamL

But the title “Elohim” is applied to the Judges in Exodus 21:6, 22:8-9 showing that these terms do not have such a sharp demarcation as you suggest. Sons of God, that is sons of elohim, is a lesser title than elohim. Sons of the Most High is a poetic parallel with much the same meaning as sons of elohim. Israel as a nation was God’s firstborn son.

Another example where “elohim” is used for the judge is:
1 Samuel 2:25 (KJV): If one man sin against another, the judge (Heb. Elohim) shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.

Another factor is that Psalm 82 is speaking of the role of the judges and not “heavenly spiritual rulers” as you suggest:
Psalm 82:2-4 (KJV): 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

But this seems to be firstly a contrast to their present exalted position and other examples could be cited of a similar contrast, such as the King of Babylon. It could also indicate some judicial slaying, or judgement such as occurred with Hophni and Phinehas. If we consider the events of AD70, then this was also a judicial slaying of those who not only crucified Jesus, but hardened their hearts against the preaching of the Apostles. There is some evidence that many were slain by crucifixion, thus reflecting the death of Jesus, the Prince, “one of the princes”.

I find this rather astounding. The “gods” of Egypt were “no-gods”. Do you really believe that the gods of Egypt were literal gods. There is some suggestion that the plagues were directly in contrast to the false “gods” of the Egyptians, showing that the One God of Israel, Yahweh had control over all these elements, and that Moses was sent by God. Do you believe that the Egyptian gods were actually evil angels? What about the gods of Canaan, were they actual gods, actual individuals with limited power, or simply the imagination of their evil hearts? What about the gods of the Greco-Roman world?

I attempted to insert your perspective into the quotation of Psalm 82:6 by Jesus and his explanation of the significance of why these individuals were called “elohim” but failed. My assessment is that Jesus’ usage and overall explanation in John 10:33-36 only makes sense when we understand that Jesus is speaking of the judges.

Kind regards
Trevor

I agree with you. The Judges of Isreal were called God's because they decided cases between two causes by applying God's law. They however themselves did not make law or give law, therefore whatever conclusion was God's judgement. Moses Gave God's law. He being God's messenger as a prophet. Since some cases of law were to difficult for the Judges to decide, law from God could be determined by other (angels) of God. The high priest could receive an answer directly from God through urim and thumim.

De 21:5  And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:

Mal 2:7  For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

But mostly we can see most clearly the authority of law at the mouth by the authority of the high priest as chief Justice.

Deut 17:8   If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
9  And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
10  And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
11  According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
 

 

[Guest]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 5:08 PM, WilliamL said:

 

Israel is never spoken of as "the sons of God." That term is only used in Scripture of heavenly angelic powers. If you had any evidence to the contrary, you would have posted it.

Here it is for ya. Concerning the high priest which was the Chief justice that could make oral law through urim and thumim.

Mal 2:7  For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger<04397>,of the LORD of hosts.

04397 מלאך mal’ak mal-awk’

 

from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; n m; {See TWOT on 1068 @@ "1068a"}

 

AV-angel 111, messenger 98, ambassadors 4, variant 1; 214

 

1) messenger, representative
1a) messenger
1b) angel
1c) the theophanic angel

Joh 11:51  And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

[WilliamL]

46 minutes ago, Joline said:

On 1/24/2016 at 6:08 PM, WilliamL said:

 

Israel is never spoken of as "the sons of God." That term is only used in Scripture of heavenly angelic powers. If you had any evidence to the contrary, you would have posted it.

Here it is for ya. Concerning the high priest which was the Chief justice that could make oral law through urim and thumim.

Mal 2:7  For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger<04397>,of the LORD of hosts.

04397 מלאך mal’ak mal-awk’

 

from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; n m; {See TWOT on 1068 @@ "1068a"}

 

Here what is? malak YHWH is nothing like beny Elohim, they are wholly different phrases.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Here what is? malak YHWH is nothing like beny Elohim, they are wholly different phrases.

You said that phrase is only used of angelic powers.

I showed you where the priests were an angelic power.

[other one]

2 hours ago, Joline said:

You said that phrase is only used of angelic powers.

I showed you where the priests were an angelic power.

It isn't speaking of angelic powers, it's speaking of beings and thier origin...  Priests are not sons of God, they are sons of men.  they may speak for God, but Prophets do that also but that does not make them sons of God.....    for that to be they must be made directly by God himself.....   which is where the Angels come from.....   priests come from mothers

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, other one said:

aIt isn't speaking of angelic powers, it's speaking of beings and thier origin...  Priests are not sons of God, they are sons of men.  they may speak for God, but Prophets do that also but that does not make them sons of God.....    for that to be they must be made directly by God himself.....   which is where the Angels come from.....   priests come from mothers

I answered you according to your own truth, which you put forth here

 " that phrase is only used of angelic powers".....  I did not make this rule, you did. Was it a misstatement or is it true ?

You gave a measure whereby a thing was true or not, I answered you according to your own measure.

As for priests and prophets not being sons of God, Hear the apostolic teaching on this subject....

Joh 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Ro 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
 

Edited February 13, 2016 by Joline
spelling

[other one]

1 hour ago, Joline said:

I answered you according to your own truth, which you put forth here

 " that phrase is only used of angelic powers".....  I did not make this rule, you did. Was it a misstatement or is it true ?

You gave a measure whereby a thing was true or not, I answered you according to your own measure.

As for priests and prophets not being sons of God, Hear the apostolic teaching on this subject....

Joh 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Ro 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
 

I think if you pay a bit more attention you would notice that wasn't me that said that.  However your quote in Romans and John it is speaking of people who have been born again and they are sons of God, born directly by God spiritually (actually I should say We are sons of God)....   that was not available to anyone before Christs resurrection.