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Religion: “I obey-therefore I’m accepted.” Gospel: “I’m accepted-therefore I obey.”


angels4u

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On 10/6/2016 at 11:40 AM, eileenhat said:

"20.  I have many good things in my life—family, work, spiritual disciplines, etc. But none of these good things are ultimate things to me. None of them are things I absolutely have to have, so there is a limit to how much anxiety, bitterness, and despondency they can inflict on me when they are threatened and lost." Adapted by Tim Keller.

 

Very excellent.

So true.

I often begin to feel despondent regarding family issues, but then I refocus on the Lord and what matters to him and the feelings lift (and I get what need to be done finished).

I also find I can wallow in emotions of a negative sort, which typically is overwhelming and not that helpful to the matter.

 

Then God helps with family issues.

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On 10/6/2016 at 0:40 PM, eileenhat said:

"20.  I have many good things in my life—family, work, spiritual disciplines, etc. But none of these good things are ultimate things to me. None of them are things I absolutely have to have, so there is a limit to how much anxiety, bitterness, and despondency they can inflict on me when they are threatened and lost." Adapted by Tim Keller.

 

Very excellent.

So true.

I often begin to feel despondent regarding family issues, but then I refocus on the Lord and what matters to him and the feelings lift (and I get what need to be done finished).

I also find I can wallow in emotions of a negative sort, which typically is overwhelming and not that helpful to the matter.

 

 

If we put our trust in the Lord He will help us in any situation , all we have to do is to ask Him and to trust Him for His will to work out in our lives, instead of wallowing we should be so thankful for everything we do have,replace wallowing and negativity with praise ( not always easy to do,but the Bible tells us to be thankful at all times, Jesus saved us~~ Amen! What a Savior!

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Just now, angels4u said:

If we put our trust in the Lord He will help us in any situation , all we have to do is to ask Him and to trust Him for His will to work out in our lives, instead of wallowing we should be so thankful for everything we do have,replace wallowing and negativity with praise ( not always easy to do,but the Bible tells us to be thankful at all times, Jesus saved us~~ Amen! What a Savior!

I agree 100%.

Jesus is the Savior.

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There in my opinion is a great sermon by Dr. Jeff Shreve from his, "It's A Wonderful Life" series , that speaks to this. It's the eighth sermon of the 8 part series entitled, If you only knew.

The full sermon is 45 minutes or so. The short version for broadcast Christian radio is less than 25 minutes. Linked below. May it bless you.

From His HeartThe Cure for InsecurityJanuary 20, 2017

 
Do you deal with feelings of insecurity? Well, most people do. But you can discover real healing from these debilitating emotions in God’s Word. Learn how to overcome your insecurity and live a life full of confidence and joy in this encouraging message, THE CURE FOR INSECURITY from Pastor Jeff Schreve’s 8-MESSAGE series IT’S A WONDERFUL LIFE:  Discovering Who You Are in Christ.
References: Ephesians 1:3-6
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On 10/6/2016 at 8:40 AM, eileenhat said:

"20.  I have many good things in my life—family, work, spiritual disciplines, etc. But none of these good things are ultimate things to me. None of them are things I absolutely have to have, so there is a limit to how much anxiety, bitterness, and despondency they can inflict on me when they are threatened and lost." Adapted by Tim Keller.

 

Very excellent.

So true.

I often begin to feel despondent regarding family issues, but then I refocus on the Lord and what matters to him and the feelings lift (and I get what needs to be done finished).

I also find I can wallow in emotions of a negative sort, which typically is overwhelming and not that helpful to the matter.

 

Psalms 37 brings me a lot of peace--the whole psalm.  Psa 37:8  Cease from anger, and forsake wrath; Do not fret—it only causes harm.     But I should memorize Psa 34:

 I will bless the LORD at all times; His praise shall continually be in my mouth.

Psa 34:2  My soul shall make its boast in the LORD; The humble shall hear of it and be glad.

Psa 34:3  Oh, magnify the LORD with me, And let us exalt His name together.

Psa 34:4  I sought the LORD, and He heard me, And delivered me from all my fears.

Psa 34:5  They looked to Him and were radiant, And their faces were not ashamed.

Psa 34:6  This poor man cried out, and the LORD heard him, And saved him out of all his troubles.

Psa 34:7  The angel of the LORD encamps all around those who fear Him, And delivers them.

Psa 34:8  Oh, taste and see that the LORD is good; Blessed is the man who trusts in Him!

Psa 34:9  Oh, fear the LORD, you His saints! There is no want to those who fear Him.

Psa 34:10  The young lions lack and suffer hunger; But those who seek the LORD shall not lack any good thing.

Psa 34:11  Come, you children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

Psa 34:12  Who is the man who desires life, And loves many days, that he may see good?

Psa 34:13  Keep your tongue from evil, And your lips from speaking deceit.

Psa 34:14  Depart from evil and do good; Seek peace and pursue it.

Psa 34:15  The eyes of the LORD are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their cry.

Psa 34:16  The face of the LORD is against those who do evil, To cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

Psa 34:17  The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears, And delivers them out of all their troubles.

Psa 34:18  The LORD is near to those who have a broken heart, And saves such as have a contrite spirit.

Psa 34:19  Many are the afflictions of the righteous, But the LORD delivers him out of them all.

Psa 34:20  He guards all his bones; Not one of them is broken.

Psa 34:21  Evil shall slay the wicked, And those who hate the righteous shall be condemned.

Psa 34:22  The LORD redeems the soul of His servants, And none of those who trust in Him shall be condemned.w

 

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On 1/22/2017 at 2:37 PM, Willa said:

Psalms 37 brings me a lot of peace--the whole psalm.  Psa 37:8  Cease from anger, and forsake wrath; Do not fret—it only causes harm.     But I should memorize Psa 34:

 I will bless the LORD at all times; His praise shall continually be in my mouth.

Psa 34:2  My soul shall make its boast in the LORD; The humble shall hear of it and be glad.

Psa 34:3  Oh, magnify the LORD with me, And let us exalt His name together.

Psa 34:4  I sought the LORD, and He heard me, And delivered me from all my fears.

Psa 34:5  They looked to Him and were radiant, And their faces were not ashamed.

Psa 34:6  This poor man cried out, and the LORD heard him, And saved him out of all his troubles.

Psa 34:7  The angel of the LORD encamps all around those who fear Him, And delivers them.

Psa 34:8  Oh, taste and see that the LORD is good; Blessed is the man who trusts in Him!

Psa 34:9  Oh, fear the LORD, you His saints! There is no want to those who fear Him.

Psa 34:10  The young lions lack and suffer hunger; But those who seek the LORD shall not lack any good thing.

Psa 34:11  Come, you children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

Psa 34:12  Who is the man who desires life, And loves many days, that he may see good?

Psa 34:13  Keep your tongue from evil, And your lips from speaking deceit.

Psa 34:14  Depart from evil and do good; Seek peace and pursue it.

Psa 34:15  The eyes of the LORD are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their cry.

Psa 34:16  The face of the LORD is against those who do evil, To cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

Psa 34:17  The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears, And delivers them out of all their troubles.

Psa 34:18  The LORD is near to those who have a broken heart, And saves such as have a contrite spirit.

Psa 34:19  Many are the afflictions of the righteous, But the LORD delivers him out of them all.

Psa 34:20  He guards all his bones; Not one of them is broken.

Psa 34:21  Evil shall slay the wicked, And those who hate the righteous shall be condemned.

Psa 34:22  The LORD redeems the soul of His servants, And none of those who trust in Him shall be condemned.w

 

Amen.

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38 minutes ago, KPaulG said:

Amen.

Thank you so much Paul, for sending this psalm again.  It was exactly what I needed again.!  I was so discouraged--physically down and haven't been able to make it to church for most of this month and some of last.  It has been very difficult to breath lately due to air quality.  We need a good 45 mph wind to blow out the smoke and smog.  So I have turned to Worthy for encouragement and hope to find very little. But you came through for me when I needed it, and I know it was God who led you to do so. 

Blessings,

Willa

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On 1/22/2016 at 6:35 PM, angels4u said:
  1. Religion:

  2. “I obey-therefore I’m accepted.”
  3. Motivation is based on fear and insecurity.
  4. I obey God in order to get things from God
  5. When circumstances in my life go wrong, I am angry at God or my self, since I believe, like Job’s friends that anyone who is good deserves a comfortable life.
  6. When I am criticized I am furious or devastated because it is critical that I think of myself as a ‘good person’. Threats to that self-image must be destroyed at all costs.
  7. My prayer life consists largely of petition and it only heats up when I am in a time of need. My main purpose in prayer is control of the environment.
  8. My self-view swings between two poles. If and when I am living up to my standards, I feel confident, but then I am prone to be proud and unsympathetic to failing people. If and when I am not living up to standards, I feel humble, but not confident-I feel like a failure.
  9. My identity and self-worth are based mainly on how hard I work. Or how moral I am, and so I must look down on those I perceive as lazy or immoral. I disdain and feel superior to ‘the other.’
  10. Since I look to my own pedigree or performance for my spiritual acceptability, my heart manufactures idols. It may be my talents, my moral record, my personal discipline, my social status, etc. I absolutely have to have them so they serve as my main hope, meaning, happiness, security, and significance, whatever I may say I believe about God.
  11. Gospel:

  12. “I’m accepted-therefore I obey.”
  13. Motivation is based on grateful joy.
  14. I obey God to get to God-to delight and resemble Him.
  15. When circumstances in my life go wrong, I struggle but I know all my punishment fell on Jesus and that while he may allow this for my training, he will exercise his Fatherly love within my trial.
  16. When I am criticized I struggle, but it is not critical for me to think of myself as a ‘good person.’ My identity is not built on my record or my performance but on God’s love for me in Christ. I can take criticism. That’s how I became a Christian.
  17. My prayer life consists of generous stretches of praise and adoration. My main purpose is fellowship with Him.
  18. My self-view is not based on a view of my self as a moral achiever. In Christ I am simul iustus et peccator—simultaneously sinful and lost yet accepted in Christ. I am so bad he had to die for me and I am so loved he was glad to die for me. This leads me to deeper and deeper humility and confidence at the same time. Neither swaggering nor sniveling.
  19. My identity and self-worth are centered on the one who died for His enemies, who was excluded from the city for me. I am saved by sheer grace. So I can’t look down on those who believe or practice something different from me. Only by grace I am what I am. I’ve no inner need to win arguments.
  20. I have many good things in my life—family, work, spiritual disciplines, etc. But none of these good things are ultimate things to me. None of them are things I absolutely have to have, so there is a limit to how much anxiety, bitterness, and despondency they can inflict on me when they are threatened and lost.
  21. Adapted from Tim Keller

  22. So many of us have some form of religion,but what is religion and what is the difference between religion and relationship,Tim Keller wrote some very good points about the difference between religion and the gospel ,do we recognize the difference and why or why not we think or do certain things? Are we doing it for the right reason?

 

The OP above...In actuality, when we study the Scriptures according to a complete Biblical hermeneutic, which would include Ancient Near Eastern (ANE) covenants and their principles, some of these given 'tenets' under the heading of "gospel" are not correct. They follow Reformed Theology good enough, but the problem is that Reformed Theology didn't have access to all of the information then that we do today, which is why many today are pushing for another Reformation within the church based upon more accurate knowledge of the Scriptures. According to more accurate knowledge, the list under the Gospel heading reads thusly:

 

1.  Instead of "I'm accepted, therefore I obey," the reality is that because one walks in obedience to the Law of Christ under the New Covenant, he is accepted. We find this in numerous passages that reference the New Covenant throughout the NT Scriptures. Those who do not know or understand ANE covenants cannot see this in the Scriptures, yet it is there. Numerous Scriptures, such as II Cor. 6:17 where we are told in no uncertain terms that unless we practice walking in holiness, we will not be received, whether one "got saved" or not.

 

2.  "Motivation is based upon grateful joy." Actually, this is Reformed Theology at its weakest...because, first of all, joy only comes from walking in relationship with God. The more we walk in relationship with Him, the closer we walk with Him, which gives us more joy, which motivates us to strive to walk even closer with Him. Engaging God in personal relationship is where the motivation comes from ultimately, which is one reason why, even though many Reformed persons chant this mantra, they play it up as having joy when they really don't, and have no motivation for anything but playing church. But in denominations where you are taught that there's nothing that you have to do in order to walk with God, just have faith and that takes care of everything nonsense, very few actually enter into personal relationship with God, so very few have the joy of the Spirit.

 

3.  "I obey God to get to God-to delight and resemble Him."  This one is really tricky...the OP says above that you obey because you have been accepted, and here it says that you obey in order to "get to God," the OP sounds confused. The Scriptures teach that we obey God because He is God, first and foremost. If you does not walk in obedience to God, then he is in the world following satan, just as Jesus tells us in John 8:44. Those who walk in obedience to God have Him as their father, and those who do not walk in obedience to God - regardless if they have "gotten saved" in the past - have satan as their father because they are doing what he wants them to do. The other reason why we are commanded to walk in obedience to God, is because if we do not, then we do not remain abiding in the New Covenant, that is - in Christ. Another reason is that God moves in the lives of others through our obedience, and when we fail to obey, He does not work in their lives. That is not a legalistic statement, He can and does work in some people's lives by Himself, but that is not the norm.

 

4.  "When circumstances in my life go wrong, I struggle but I know all my punishment fell on Jesus and that while he may allow this for my training, he will exercise his Fatherly love within my trial."  This one sounds like Calvinism straight up...and it is Scripturally in error. We do have struggles, and if we fall into sin but are still striving to walk with God, then those failures are taken care of as long as we are walking in obedience to Him (I John 2:10; 1:7). God's love will not temper His judgment, and that is what the OP here seems to be saying. If we have ceased to remain abiding in Christ, then no amount of grace, faith, obedience, or anything else will help the person during their "trial." Salvation and eternal life are taught in the Scriptures as being covenant gifts, and covenant gifts are only given and maintained by those who are abiding in Christ, the Living New Covenant of God.

 

5.  "...My identity is not built on my record or my performance but on God’s love for me in Christ..."  This is extreme error, and not Scriptural in the least bit. Our identity in Christ is solidly based upon the fact that we are abiding in Christ. If one is not in Christ, then his identity is with the world, that is what the Scriptures teach. What most in Reformed churches today fail to understand, because Reformed Theology has no basis in ANE covenant knowledge (so-called "covenant theology" is riddled with half-truths and outright false teachings, that it has no basis in ANE covenanting), is that Redemptive covenants (which the New Covenant is) have what is called covenant law. That law today is the Law of Christ, the covenant law of the New Covenant. If one does not walk in obedience to that covenant law, then one is not in the covenant which it originates from (in this case, the New Covenant). The Law of Christ is found explained by John in I John 3:23-24.

 

6.  "My prayer life consists of generous stretches of praise and adoration. My main purpose is fellowship with Him."  Absolutely!!! According to John 17:1, engaging God in an intimate personal love relationship is the whole reason why we are saved and given eternal life in the first place.

 

7.  "...In Christ I am simul iustus et peccator—simultaneously sinful and lost yet accepted in Christ. I am so bad he had to die for me and I am so loved he was glad to die for me..."  Parts here are unscriptural, although inherent to Reformed Theology. Those who are walking with God are not sinful...we still have a sin nature and so are prone to fall into sin, but sinful means that one is living a lifestyle of blatant, purposeful sin, practicing sin, and John tells us that those who practice sinning are not God's, do not know God, and never have come to Him in the first place. No one who practices sin is "accepted in Christ." The only ones who are accepted in Christ are those who are "in Christ," and the only way to be "in Christ" according to the Scriptures, is to be walking in obedience to Him, separating ourselves from the world, and touching no unclean thing. I realize that to some that will be a "legalistic" statement - but those in Reformed circles are taught an inaccurate definition of what legalistic is. There is "legal" and then there is "legalistic." Walking in obedience to God is being "legal" according to His standard, not legalistic. Legalistic is beating others over the head in an effort to make them "fall in line" with the legal. There is a difference.

Secondly, Christ did not die for us because we are "so bad," and that shows a great misunderstanding of the atonement. God didn't have to send Christ to be our ultimate atonement, He could have just left things the way they were and we would have to kill an animal every time we sinned. However, God wanted real intimacy, which required a more perfect sacrifice for sin. It has nothing to do with how wicked we were, it has everything to do with the fact that atonement had to be made that would take care of our sin unlike it was under the Old Covenant - sacrifice for every sin committed. Today, under the New Covenant, we are told that as long as we are walking in covenant relationship with God, striving to walk in obedience to Him as a lifestyle, then our sins are washed away automatically by the blood of Christ (I John 1:7).

 

8.  "...I am saved by sheer grace. So I can’t look down on those who believe or practice something different from me. Only by grace I am what I am...."

First, no one is saved "by sheer grace" as it is stated here - but that might be an oversimplification on the OP's part. One must meet the criteria in order to be heard by God on high...that is, if a person does not come to faith in Christ, and choose to repent from his former lifestyle of sin, then he can say all the sinner's prayers that he wants to, but God will not forgive the man or woman who does not first repent from practicing the sins that they did in their "former ignorance" as Peter puts it. That is why Peter says in Acts 2:38 that one must repent and then receive water baptism into Christ...because baptism is nothing if the person has not repented. God will not forgive the unrepentant man because there is no reason to...if he is not going to cease from his sins then the application of Christ's precious blood to his life would be a complete waste.

The phrase, "Only by grace I am what I am" is completely false. Grace is not a force, it cannot do anything to make you anything...when we itemize grace (charis) we find that, when the rubber meets the road, grace is the love of God in action towards mankind. Simply put, grace is God's love...and love can make you do things, but it cannot do those things in and of itself. I am what I am today because of God's love for me and the strength the indwelling Spirit provide, giving me the ability to walk in obedience to Him. All too many times, Reformed Theology throws out the human element in the Divine relationship equation, and spouts "its all grace and nothing of me," and that is not Scriptural in the least bit. It is a religious statement, and belongs in the first part of the OP.

 

9.  this statement isn't really a Scriptural teaching, but the way that a person who is walking closely to God might feel...but, honestly, I have met few people who actually can be like that, especially when they are about to lose a home or something else that means a lot to them. It is a good target to shoot for...

Then the last concluding statement...

Quote

"So many of us have some form of religion,but what is religion and what is the difference between religion and relationship,Tim Keller wrote some very good points about the difference between religion and the gospel ,do we recognize the difference and why or why not we think or do certain things? Are we doing it for the right reason?"

 

Many do not recognize when they are being religious, and many don't know the difference because they have never been taught how to have a relationship with God. Many in the church world today (outside of Pentecostalism) are taught that they have a relationship with God because they have faith...but that is not taught anywhere in the Scriptures. If you go to church, sing some songs, listen to someone speak (and more and more today that is what they are doing, just speaking, not preaching, not having the call into ministry and so not being gifted to preach or teach), then have some fellowship, go home, and not pray at home, not worship at home, not spend time with God in the Word at home, not spending intimate quality time with God at home...then you have religion, not relationship.

 

It's quite simple...we have relationship with God much the same way that we have relationship with other people...we talk with them, spend time with them, do things together with them...etc. The only difference is, the things that we do are not so much with Him, but to Him and for Him.

 

Blessings!

 

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On 4/4/2016 at 5:16 PM, ((Michael)) said:

 I have gone over so many passages regarding "Fear of the Lord", which has turned into a reverence. And I can't dispute that in a lot of the passages, the word fear is referring to reverence. But I'm reminded of when the people of Israel appeared before the Almighty on Mt. Sinai in both Exodus Chp 20. The people were so frightened that they were going to die just by hearing His voice, and begged Moses to intervene for them while also agreeing they would do all ADONAI required of them. This is both Moses and God's response:

Exodus 20:20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin."

Deuteronomy 5:29 'Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever!

The last verse is God's response to the people fearing Him so badly they wanted a mediator. Although we have a better mediator today, there are far too many passages that tell us it is wise to fear the Almighty God. Once we learn what it means to fear the One True God, we realize there is nothing else to fear. I think over time, we as a people have become arrogant and proud that fearing a superior or subjecting our self to one in authority is not easily accepted. Yet throughout scripture it is common to see that God rewards humility and they humble will inherit the earth. I am going to be a hypocrite ( I think we rely on too many opinion's by men instead of scripture ) on this and post another man's opinion. I read a commentary by David Stern and this is what he had to say regarding the "fear of the Lord":

"It is not popular these days to point out that Elohim is an Elohim of wrath. People would rather quote John 4:8 ( Elohim is love ) and look no further. But it is in the context of His holiness, meaning His hatred for sin, and His justice, meaning His dispensing the punishment that sin brings on itself, that His love, mercy and grace become so precious.

Eccliasiastes 12:13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.
 

 

 

Jesus was given authority and the thone to bring all creation into submission when all is under his foot and hands us back to God. We should fear God if we sin reverance, respect, shake in your boot. he does love us with an incurable love. Thats why we are given to Christ les we force him to destroy us.

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