Biblical Calculations 1. (70 X 7)

[Marilyn C]

 

I would like to discuss God`s Biblical calculations in relation to the `end of the times of the Gentiles` ruling the world & His purpose for Israel.  As this can get quite detailed I thought it would be good if we tackled a section at a time over 3 threads –

 

1. God`s purpose for the 70 x 7 years. (days & years)

2. God`s purpose for the final 7 years. (seasons & feasts)

3. God`s purpose for the last 7 days. ( God`s beginnings)

 

Each topic builds on the previous one, I believe, & thus needs to be discussed separately. So this thread is about the `70 x 7 years` of Daniel 9: 24. Those who know Hebrew & Greek will hopefully be able to bring some light to the discussion.

 

`70 weeks are determined for your people & for your city to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal vision & prophecy, & to anoint the Most Holy.

Know therefore & understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore & build Jerusalem until the Messiah the Prince, there shall be 7 weeks & 62 weeks; the street shall be build again, & the wall, even in troublesome times.

After the 62 weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; & the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city & the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, & till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice & offering. On the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation which is determined, is poured out on the desolate.` (Dan. 9: 24 – 27)

 

So my question is –

`What do you believe concerning the `70 X 7 weeks?`

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

 

So – What do I believe concerning the `70 X 7 weeks,` of Dan. 9: 24 – 27)

This is quite a well known scripture, however I would like to show why I believe God said `70 x 7.`

 

7 – the Hebrew `shibah`  the number seven, the sacred full one. From the Hebrew `shaba,` meaning to be complete.

Thus I see that when God rested on the seventh day that He was showing the complete cycle for a week of days – a unit of seven.

Now we know that God told Israel to also rest on the 7^th day. Then when Israel was in their own land He told them to give the land a rest every seven (7) years. However Israel did not obey the Lord & eventually they went into exile so that the land could fulfil its Sabbaths. God said –

 

  `And those who were escaped from the sword he (King Nebuchadnezzar) carried away to Babylon, where they became servants  to him & his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfil the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths. As long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfil seventy (70) years.` (2 Chron. 36: 20 & 21)

 

Then when Daniel was in Babylon he read the prophecy of Jeremiah & realised that the 70 years was nearly up. (Jer. 25: 12)

 

`In the first year of his reign (Darius the Mede) I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the Lord, given through Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish 70 years in the desolations of Jerusalem. ` (Dan. 9: 2)

 

So Daniel gets to prayer, humbles himself & seeks God for his nation. God replies telling Daniel that it is not only 70 years for the lands Sabbaths rest but that there are `70 X 7` years for the people of Israel & Jerusalem, to bring an end to the national rebellion against God. (Dan. ch. 9)

 

Thus I see –

70 years exile for the land to have its Sabbath rest, &

70 X 7 years for the nation of Israel & the city, Jerusalem to complete the national rebellion & bring in everlasting righteousness.

 

I will post more thoughts later. Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Hi simplejeff,

Thank you for your comments. I so agree that God does things - `so simple, beautiful and orchestrated in every way with perfect harmony` as you said. It is us that make things so complicated.

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2016 by Marilyn C

[Marilyn C]

 

Here is a diagram of how I see the 70 weeks ( 70 X 7 years).

 

 

……….I……………………………………………I………………………………………………………….I…….X………..I……..I

…..Edict………………………………………Rebuilt……………………………............Messiah....cut off……………….

………………………(7 X 7)…………………………………..(62 X 7)……………………………………………………(1 X 7)

 

 

The Edict to rebuild. (7 X 7 years)

 

`Know  therefore & understand that from the going forth of the command to restore & rebuild Jerusalem …..7 weeks (  7 x 7 )…..` (Dan. 9: 25)

 

Mar. 5, 444 BC –  the king of Persia gives edict to rebuild Jerusalem & Temple.

 

Nehemiah, a captive is asked by the king, why he looks so sad. Nehemiah explains that his city (Jerusalem) lies waste & the gates are burned. The king then asks `What do you request?` Nehemiah prays, then asks the king to send him to Jerusalem that he may build the walls.

 

The king gives him permit letters so that Nehemiah may pass through regions beyond the River (Euphrates) till he comes to Judah. He is also given a letter to Asaph the keeper of the king`s forest that he must give Nehemiah timber for the beams of the gates for the temple, for the city wall & for Nehemiah`s house. (Neh. 2: 1 – 8)

 

 

 

After restoring & rebuilding. (62 X 7 years)

 

`….rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be 62 weeks ( 62 x 7 years);…` (Dan. 9: 25)

 

Palm Sunday.  (Mar. 30, 33 AD) The Messiah appears as Prince riding on a colt.

 

 

`Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold your King is coming to you; He is just & having salvation, lowly & riding on a donkey, a colt, the foal of a donkey.` (Zechariah 9: 9)

 

`And it came to pass, ….that He (Jesus) sent two disciples, saying, “Go into the village opposite you, where as you enter, you will find a colt tied,….bring him here…..Then, as He was now drawing near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice & praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen, saying –

 

“Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord!...` (Luke 19: 28 – 38)

 

 

Messiah cut off.

 

We know this is the time that the Lord was crucified. Then there is a `gap` period while the Body of Christ comes to maturity. When that is completed then the focus will be on Israel`s final 7 years of chastisement.

 

`And after 62 weeks (62 X 7 years) Messiah shall be cut off, ….` (Dan. 9: 26)

 

 

 

The Final 7 years.  One week. ( 1 X 7 years).

 

This is the completion of God`s dealings with Israel in regards to their national rebellion. It is the time when the final Gentile Rulership tries to annihilate Israel.  

 

`And the people of the prince (leader) who is to come shall destroy the city (Jerusalem) & the sanctuary …He shall confirm a covenant with many for one `week` (1 X 7 years). But in the middle of the week ( 7 years) he shall bring an end to sacrifice & offering…` (Dan. 9: 26 & 27)

 

 

Summary –

 

7 X 7

62 X 7

1 X 7

 

= 70 X 7.

 

 

 

 

[unworthydude]

I've pasted below some previous arguments that I had typed up against the view that you are representing. These are my arguments that I came up with so. ..What do you think?

 

Here are my reasons why the 70 weeks are not to be interpreted in years but literal weeks. If this is true then there is no 7 year tribulation. Here's why...

The 70 weeks are not 490 days=490 years. It HAS TO BE a shorter amount of time based on the life of the anointed prince. Look...

•         Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

•         Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.  Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

(These verses above have been translated by some to include the 62 weeks and the 7 weeks together to make up 69 weeks but that distorts the original distinct 7 and 62 weeks and makes them read unnatural. The first seven weeks relate to the coming of a prince. The 62 weeks are in regard to the rebuilding. I won't go heavily into the translation problems but I firmly believe the texts are to be understood from the divided interpretation of 7 and 62 weeks being distinct from one another. Why would the writer intend 69 weeks but say 7 and 62 weeks? It doesn't make sense and should be rejected.)

I had previously believed, like most scholars, that the 70 weeks represent 490 day years based on Daniel 9:24. They then configure a timeline from Cyrus's decree to the day Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey to be the the first 69 weeks. Scholars then assume that the last week of 7 years is divided into two 3.5 years from Daniel 9:27 and 12:11 because of the ending of the sacrifices seeming to correlate to the half week and the 1290 days given by the angel. There is also the Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:14 reference to 1260 days being the time-times-half a time. Scholars multiply the 3.5 years to make a final 7 year/week of "tribulation".

However that is not consistent to the weeks of Daniel 9 and should not be the sole interpretive measure. Clearly, we can see that the anointed prince's life span is within the 70 weeks forcing them to be 70 literal weeks. This is clear and must be considered. Doing so, it makes the 70 weeks=490 years case wrong as I had also previously thought possible but now have changed my mind. It also makes the 7 year tribulation case wrong since it is based off of the 70 weeks being in year/days.

This has radical implications. This means that there is not a seven year tribulation that the mainstream church has based many sermons, books and movies upon. The assumption has always been based around the speculative framework of Daniel 9's seventy weeks. Please read my further arguments below.

Arguments against the traditional futurist view on the 70 weeks.

1. The one and only consequence for breaking the Sabbath land-rest law was that they would be sent out of the land.

•         Lev 26:34 "Then the land shall enjoy its Sabbaths as long as it lies desolate, while you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest, and enjoy its Sabbaths. 35 As long as it lies desolate it shall have rest, the rest that it did not have on your Sabbaths when you were dwelling in it.

Israel was in their own land during the time of Jesus which is supposed to have occurred during the 69 weeks of years in order to fulfill their timeline of 70 weeks or 490 years. This alone shows how impossible this interpretation has been. Israel was exiled out of the land to Babylon during the 70 years judgment but what we see in future prophecy is that Israel will remain in the land to fight. It is not until the end of the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9:27 that "the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator." happens and they are then told to flee Jerusalem.

•         Mar_13:14 "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

This is a big factor preventing the 70 weeks from being Sabbath years and not to be overlooked. If the last week of the tribulation is to take place with Israel in their land then it is impossible for them to be sabbath day=years.

2. Based on how most scholars today measure Daniel’s 70 weeks by multiplying 70 broken Sabbath years by 7 years, they surmise a 490 year punishment. However, it would have to mean that the Israelite's had broken the Sabbath land rest for 3430 years. There has not been enough time for them to have been in the land to have broken that many Sabbath land rest years.

3. We have to remember that the 70 weeks is a consequence of judgment and there is also absolutely no mention of Israel breaking the Sabbath land-rest law in future prophecy outside of what scholars proclaim for Daniel 9:24. The fact that they were out of the land for over 2000 years already should have cleared up any land rest issues God might of had. Thus, ruling out the last week of years being necessary for resolving the land laws of rest.

4. There are also many other verses where “weeks” or “sevens”( shâbûa‛) means literal days. We can’t forget that the original Sabbath week was 7 days.

•         Lev 23:3 "Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work. It is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwelling places.

Just two chapters before the Sabbath land rest verses where scholars believe the weeks=years concept we find this:

•         Lev 23:15 "You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering.

Perhaps, the angel is telling Daniel that once the temple is rebuilt that a time frame coinciding with the Sabbaths days will commence. This could be a prophetic time frame until the harvest time. Remember, the 70 weeks start when the Jews rebuild Jerusalem and the sanctuary exists, meaning that this is meant for the Jews at that future time. The Jews will follow the Sabbath as even Jesus said in Mat 24:20 "Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath."

Just so people can see, “weeks’ can mean both days and years linguistically.

Brown-Driver Briggs Hebrew Lexicon states this for “weeks”:
shâbûa‛ / shâbûa‛ / shebû‛âh

Definition:
1) seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week
1a) period of seven days, a week
1a1) Feast of Weeks
1b) heptad, seven (of years)


5. Just because scripture at times uses weeks as years does not mean we can use it anywhere we want to. It must be shown contextually but the context of Daniel 9:24-27 reveals a time table that rules out weeks equaling years. The life span of the anointed prince is paramount in this regard and somehow has been overlooked.


6. The previous 70 years under Nebuchadnezzar was a judgment based on the Sabbath year land misuse but why is there no mention of the land resting for 490 years in the future as it was told of Israel for just the 70 years and repeated throughout scripture. E.g., 2 Chronicles, Jeremiah, Zechariah and in Daniel?


7. A 7 year Sabbath land rest places Israel back under the law. The law has been done away with when Jesus Christ came to fulfill it. The Jews will follow the Sabbath but God will not require it of them as also the temple they will rebuild, only faith and obedience to His Son Jesus Christ is required now.

•         Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two (Jew and Gentile), so making peace,

The old covenant has been replaced by the new covenant and to say that God would make the Jews serve 490 years due to breaking the Sabbath land laws of Leviticus 25 is to re-establish the law and makes the new covenant irrelevant. Any future sacrifices in the millennium can be explained as commemorative and do not entail curses. Unless someone wants to argue that the Jews are still under the law in contrast to the clear teaching of scripture.

•         Heb 10:10-14 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (11) And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. (12) But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, (13) waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. (14) For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

8. There is a problem in saying that there is a 7 year time frame remaining from the final week of Daniel 9:27. The angel tells Daniel that from the mid-point of the ceasing of the burnt offerings there is still a total of 1290 days and even 1335 days remaining. That does not fit into the 7 week, double 3 ½ year scenario. That would extend the last week beyond 3 ½ years, making the 70 weeks not the finality of events as maintained.

•         Dan 12:11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. (12) Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.

To resolve this issue and he others I have raised, it would seem better to allow for two different time frames concerning the finality of Israel in judgment and repentance as seen throughout scripture. There is no need to force the 70 weeks into a time frame that does not correspond to all of scripture.

9. If the 69 weeks of Daniel 9:25-26 were to have happened before and up to the time of Christ, why didn't Jesus, his apostles or later disciples ever interpret Daniel 9:24-27 as having been fulfilled or partially fulfilled during their life times? It would've been a tremendous fulfillment for believers if such prophecies were to have occurred and culminated during their time. Could we really say they didn't know? All the other prophecies that were fulfilled were revealed to us.

10. Again, there seems to be a forcing of the 70 weeks for reasons that do not make sense. For instance, in the traditional futurist view, why would the 70 weeks be broken up to when Artaxerxes gave a decree until Jesus comes to Jerusalem on a donkey? This occurs during the latter end of His ministry but why culminate a 483 year prophecy to this event and not His crucifixion? It also does not account for his other remaining time on earth. Especially the finality of his resurrection. Instead, scholars force the date to be him riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. What happened to His most critical accomplishments? Was riding on a donkey into Jerusalem that significant? It doesn’t make sense.

This problem is only exacerbated by the fact that Jerusalem continued on until 70 A.D. Supposedly, the 70 weeks is still yet to pick up after Jerusalem has been in the land since 1948? What is to explain this seemingly arbitrary relationship of events? What is to make sense of this prophecy time line?

11. If the 69 weeks of Daniel 9:25-26 were to have happened before and up to the time of Christ, why didn't Jesus, his apostles or later disciples ever interpret Daniel 9:24-27 as having been fulfilled or partially fulfilled during their life times? It would've been a tremendous fulfillment for believers if such prophecies were to have occurred and culminated during their time. Could we really say they didn't know? All the other prophecies that were fulfilled were revealed to us.

12. Here are some false assumptions many scholars make when interpreting Daniel 9:24-27:

-They assume the only allowable interpretation is the land-rest, day=year sabbatical curse. Hebrew weeks have been used for both years and days.

-They assume that the first 7 weeks of Dan 9:25 is irrelevant.

-They assume that the anointed one doesn't arrive after the first 7 weeks. It does not say after 69 weeks but after 7 weeks he arrives.

-They assume that the 62 weeks and the first 7 weeks are combined. Scripture does not say they are.

-They assume that your preselected historical dates have to be fulfilled in order to defend prophecy.

-They assume the text apart into 69 weeks and then a final 1 week. Scripture does not teach this. It teaches 7 weeks to an anointed ruler, then 62 weeks for the rebuilding of Jerusalem, then a final week made covenant with the same ruler.

-They assume that the ruler is Jesus Christ. This is not clearly taught. You are reading this into the text. Cut-off (Karath) simply means exclusion or destroying. It was a term used by God or Israel to remove a person from their community. Exo_12:15, Psa_101:8..

-They assume that you can do to the text something you wouldn't do to any other passage.

-They assume that this passage is not consistent with Daniel 11 and that you can isolate a set of passages while ignoring others.

-They assume that calculators and commentaries are more useful than the context of scripture.

-They assume you can make events fit your constructed timeline of history before rightly interpreting the construction of scripture.
I've studied the traditional futurist view and the most compelling reason to believe in a 490 year time frame is the final 7 week. I have found problems with the final 7 weeks model and have discovered a solution. This next section below will outline what I believe to be that solution.

In scripture, there are three time-frames in the futurist eschatology of Israel.

1. The first time frame is of Israel’s judgment (70 weeks).

Dan 9:24  "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

2. The second time frame is of Israel’s spiritual salvation (1260 days).

• Rev 12:14  But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

3. The third time line is of Israel’s physical restoration (2300 evenings and mornings).

• Dan 8:14  And he said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state."

1.  The first time-frame is the 70 weeks of judgement.

We can see in Daniel that the previous 70 years of Israel’s exile was also a previous punishment.

•         Dan 9:2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

There are many prophecies making it very clear that God is going to bring a final judgment against Israel.

•         Luk_21:23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.

•         Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

•         Dan 11:36 "And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.

•         Zec 12:2 "Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the surrounding peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah.

The 70 weeks of Daniel 24-27 is only referring to God’s judgment of Jerusalem. Look how the 70 weeks start and finish. The 70 weeks start with the rebuilding of Jerusalem and end with the desolation of Israel. There is not one mention during the 70 weeks of Israel’s repentance or restoration. The 70 weeks is only dealing with the final ‘desolation’ of Israel.

•         Dan 9:24-27 "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. (25) Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. (26) And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. (27) And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

The question of whether 62 literal weeks is sufficient to time to rebuild Jerusalem is answered by looking at what exactly is rebuilt. It is only a street and wall as the ISV translates it.

•         Dan 9:25 …The street will be rebuilt, along with the wall, though in troubled times.

This rebuilding can occur after any one of the battles mentioned early throughout Daniel 11: 9-16.

2.  The second time frame is the 3 ½ years of Israel’s spiritual restoration:
It is not until Israel is destroyed that the 70 weeks will end. The Jews will then flee Judea and will repent beginning their 1260 days of nourishment while the antichrist turns against the church. God will then turn in their favor to deliver them.

•         Dan 12:1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

•         Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.

Right before Jerusalem is destroyed. Jesus told the Jews that when they see the abomination of desolation they are then to flee to the mountains.

•         Mar_13:14 "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Only the believing Jews who obey Jesus will be saved. These will nourished for the 3 ½ years.

The antichrist will then go after the church during that same time.

•         Rev 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

•         Dan 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

•         Rev 13:5-7 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. (6) It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. (7) Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,

There is a feeding or nourishment shown to Israel for 3 ½ years. This is the time when the Jews will reconcile with God through the prophecies revealed in the old and new testaments. When Christ comes back they will ready to receive Him as they cry out for salvation. The antichrist will be the tool to drive them home spiritually.

•         Rev 12:6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

•         Rev 12:14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

•         Zec 12:7 "And the LORD will give salvation to the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not surpass that of Judah.

•         Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

There will many Jews saved through the preaching of the prophecies and their fulfillment during that 3 1/2 years time.

•         Dan 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

•         Dan 12:9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

The tribulation will not take place until after the 3 1/2 years.

•         Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

3. The third time frame is the 2300 “Evenings and Mornings” until Jerusalem’s restoration.

•         Dan 8:13-14 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, "For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?" (14) And he said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state."

•         Eze 37:21-28 then say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. (22) And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. (23) They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. (24) "My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. (25) They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. (26) I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. (27) My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (28) Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."


This conclusion also rules out the common interpretation that Jesus is the fulfilled anointed prince following the decree in Nehemiah. Again, the life span time restriction does not fit that as a possibility. What many people consider to be Jesus in Dan 9:26, can also be interpreted as the antichrist. The word 'anointed' has also been applied to Satan and Cyrus and doesn't require it to be Jesus. Both have been employed by God to do his service.

•         Isa_45:1 Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and to loose the belts of kings, to open doors before him that gates may not be closed:

•         Eze_28:14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
Nebuchadnezzar was also fulfilling God's will in sacking Jerusalem and yet was an evil person at the time of service. This was part of the curses of Deuteronomy for disobedience. God said He would bring upon them their enemies (Deu_28:48). Nebuchadnezzar was even called God's servant twice...

•         Jer_25:9 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the LORD, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation.

•         Jer_27:6 Now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, my servant, and I have given him also the beasts of the field to serve him.

You have to keep in mind when reading Daniel that the angel said that the 70 weeks happens at the time of the end -Dan 10:14. The time of the end is God's final outpouring of wrath or judgement on Israel's sin until they repent. It's a complete unit of time when God brings the "surrounding" nations against Israel to judge her. The time of Jacob's trouble is the long awaited final judgement. Remember, judgement begins with the house of God then the world will get theirs soon after. When Israel repents (Zech 12) God then defends them in His mercy. The antichrist is God's judgement against Israel.

•         Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

•         Dan 11:36 "And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.

•         Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

•         Luk_21:23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.

The vision chapters of Daniel all harmonize around the antichrist who is part of the latter fourth kingdom. This same prince is mentioned throughout the Daniel 9 and 11 scenario to come against Israel. It is during his life time that the 70 literal weeks span.

It is my contention that too much emphasis is placed on the last week of Daniel 9:27 rather than trying to understand all the time frames that are given. Each time frame has its context and must be considered before harmonizing the passages can occur. The forcing of the tribulation into Daniel 9:27 does not account for all that we see that is to take place.

Edited January 24, 2016 by unworthydude

[Marilyn C]

 

Hi unworthydude,

 

Thank you for interacting on this topic. Before I answer some of your questions, may I make a suggestion. If you just post a couple of points then people can more easily read & understand what you are saying & then we can have a fruitful discussion. By posting so much, it just looks like `a dump` of info & people often `jump over` it.

 

So to some of your points –

 

1. What does the first `7 weeks` relate to?  &  

2. 2. `Weeks.` days, months, years?

    

   `Know therefore & understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore & rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince , there shall be 7 weeks & 62 weeks;……`

    

   This 7 weeks refers to the `going forth of the command to restore & rebuild Jerusalem.` Jerusalem had been mostly destroyed by invading Babylonians. Under the Persian kings some restoration had happened, but it was when Nehemiah was given the command by King Artaxerxes of Persia that the rebuilding of the gates & walls commenced.

    

   The time period for this rebuilding was over 49 years – 7 x 7 years. This clearly gives us the understanding that `weeks` in Daniel 9: 24 – 27 refers to a period of years.

    

   `Weeks` -  Heb. `shebuah` meaning sevened. ie. a week (specifically of years) (Strong`s)

    

    

3. Why is Israel in the land during the 69 weeks?

    

   Israel is under God`s chastisement for the 70 X 7 time period. In that time they are not the rulers of the other nations but are under Gentile rulership.

    

    

4. Why culminate a prophecy to the event of Jesus coming on a colt into Jerusalem.

    

   I wrote on this in my previous comments. Did you read them? Zechariah the prophet, prophesied that Israel`s king would come to them riding on a colt into Jerusalem. (Zech. 9: 9)

    

   This was fulfilled on Palm Sunday when Jesus, Israel`s king came riding on a colt into Jerusalem being acclaimed by the great multitude of people. (Luke 19: 28 – 38)

    

    

5. The meaning of other time periods in Daniel. I will answer this in my next thread which deals with those details.

    

   Marilyn.

     

[unworthydude]

51 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

 

Hi unworthydude,

 

Thank you for interacting on this topic. Before I answer some of your questions, may I make a suggestion. If you just post a couple of points then people can more easily read & understand what you are saying & then we can have a fruitful discussion. By posting so much, it just looks like `a dump` of info & people often `jump over` it.

 

So to some of your points –

 

I know. Forgive me. It's definitely hard to for me to be succinct because I build a case with arguments that I just have to include. They're like my babies who I have to let out and play. Plus, I'm horrible at forums. I like to research Biblical topics and social forums are a great place to test my beliefs because you folk are the only ones I know on planet earth even discussing these matters. 

 

1. What does the first `7 weeks` relate to?  &  

2. `Weeks.` days, months, years?

 

`Know therefore & understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore & rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince , there shall be 7 weeks & 62 weeks;……`

 

This 7 weeks refers to the `going forth of the command to restore & rebuild Jerusalem.` Jerusalem had been mostly destroyed by invading Babylonians. Under the Persian kings some restoration had happened, but it was when Nehemiah was given the command by King Artaxerxes of Persia that the rebuilding of the gates & walls commenced.

 

The time period for this rebuilding was over 49 years – 7 x 7 years. This clearly gives us the understanding that `weeks` in Daniel 9: 24 – 27 refers to a period of years.

 

The life span of the anointed prince would rule this interpretation out as I argued.  The rebuilding timeline can be explained not by looking at a past rebuilding but a future one. If we look at what will need to be rebuilt, we can see that the rebuilding is a street and a wall in Jerusalem. 49 years is not needed. Modern and future construction can rebuild rather quickly. 69 weeks is 1 year 3 months.

• Dan 9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

 

`Weeks` -  Heb. `shebuah` meaning sevened. ie. a week (specifically of years) (Strong`s)

 

The word shebuah as I pointed out also is used for a Sabbath week of days.

 

 

 

1. Why is Israel in the land during the 69 weeks?

    

   Israel is under God`s chastisement for the 70 X 7 time period. In that time they are not the rulers of the other nations but are under Gentile rulership.

    

     Yes, they were originally sent out of their land because they had broken the Sabbath laws.

 

• Lev 26:34 "Then the land shall enjoy its Sabbaths as long as it lies desolate, while you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest, and enjoy its Sabbaths. 35 As long as it lies desolate it shall have rest, the rest that it did not have on your Sabbaths when you were dwelling in it.

 

• 2Ch 36:21  To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

 

However, as I pointed out, they were sent back to their land by Cyrus the Persian king and stayed in their land during the time that you say that they would have been fulfilling the 70 weeks of years. The verses above says that they would have had to been out of the land if it was a Sabbath consequence. That was just one of my arguments on this Sabbath view.

 

"1. The one and only consequence for breaking the Sabbath land-rest law was that they would be sent out of the land."

 

Quote

 

 

 

 

 

1. Why culminate a prophecy to the event of Jesus coming on a colt into Jerusalem.

    

   I wrote on this in my previous comments. Did you read them? Zechariah the prophet, prophesied that Israel`s king would come to them riding on a colt into Jerusalem. (Zech. 9: 9)

    

   This was fulfilled on Palm Sunday when Jesus, Israel`s king came riding on a colt into Jerusalem being acclaimed by the great multitude of people. (Luke 19: 28 – 38)

 

 

Yes, I am familiar with that verse but my point was that the scripture does not record that event as being significant to a fulfillment by Daniel. The occurrence of Jesus coming into Jerusalem to fulfill a time frame long ago recorded would be an incredible fulfillment. I don't want to make an argument from silence but simply to take notice that the proof is not astounding to conclude as you have, especially when other interpretations can readily account for this verse as well.

 

 

1. The meaning of other time periods in Daniel. I will answer this in my next thread which deals with those details.

    

   Marilyn.

     

I appreciate the challenge and your thread. Please know that I want this exchange to be in love and not divisive or anything but objective.  I respect you and anybody who debates my ideas. On the outset, this is not personal and if you can prove that I am wrong, I will acquiesce. Although, it might take some time for me to process it. Just know I have no axe to grind but I'm only trying to challenge ideas and come to the knowledge of the truth as I hope you are too. Thanks for reading my long ...long...long.. post. lol Ugh, I pray God to show me how to keep it short and to the point.

 

Edited January 24, 2016 by unworthydude

[Marilyn C]

Hi unworthydude,

Thank you for responding so graciously. I do hope we can have a good discussion here. I will get back to you tomorrow.

Blessings, Marilyn.

[ARGOSY]

Hi Marilyn

I see the 70 sevens as being 490 Jewish years. These 490 years start with the decree of Artaxerxes issued to the administrators around autumn 458 BC. 483 years later, in autumn of 26 AD Jesus begins His ministry. At this moment he confirms God's promise to send a Messiah, continuously confirming this for 3.5 years of His ministry.  Then at 486.5 years, Jesus is the final sacrificial lamb, putting an end to sacrifice and offering.

This leaves just 3.5 Jewish years left. These 3.5 years starts with the fall of Satan (Rev 12) when the victory of the gospel causes Satan to fall, and the woman (Israel) is protected.  Romans 11:25 could be associated with this victory of the gospel, because the fullness of the nations come in, which means Jews are then open to the gospel.

Daniel 12 can be interpreted as describing this gap in the 490 year period:   “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days

That word "time" can be seen as "age".  Interpreting this verse, we can infer that from the Gentile age starting with the abolished sacrifices (CRUCIFIXION) and ending with the setting up of the abomination, there are 3.5 Jewish years left.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi unworthydude,

 

I think we need to stick close to what God says –

 

`Seventy sevens are determined for your people & for your holy city, to…..`

`Know therefore & understand that from the going forth of the command to restore & rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince,…..` (Dan. 9: 24 & 25)

 

Now Israel was disobedient to God for 490 years till they were taken away to Babylon. They were there 70 years giving the land its Sabbath rests. (Note, only some were sent to build the temple earlier.) The 70 comes from the amount of 7^th years in the 490 years, (70). However Israel needs to be corrected for ALL the time they were disobedient – 490 years, thus the 70 X 7.

 

Also Dan. 9: 25 does record the importance of the Palm Sunday prophecy. You see that is when the people of Israel received their Messiah the Prince – Jesus. Zechariah prophesied this, as we know & it is a major event. Israel received their Messiah, hailing Him as their King. But in a few days they rejected Him, thus God rejected them (for a time – the gap).

 

The time of the command going out till Palm Sunday when Jesus was proclaimed their King, Messiah the Prince, is an exact prophesied time.

 

 

……….I…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….I…….X….

…..Mar. 5, 444 BC………7 weeks……I……62 weeks………………………………….......Mar. 30, 33 AD   (after)

…..Edict……………………………..69 weeks …………………………………………………….Messiah the Prince.

 

 

538 B.C. Daniel`s Prophecy. (Dan. 9: 24 – 27)

 

Mar. 5, 444 BC – Nehemiah 2: 1 – 8 Artaxerxes Longimanus of Persia gives edict to rebuild Jerusalem.

 

Mar. 30, 33 AD Palm Sunday. Zechariah 9: 9  & Luke 19: 29 – 44 The Messiah appears as Prince.

 

 

 69 X 7  = 483 yrs. Sabbatical years.

Prophetic years = 483 yrs x 360 days.

Calendar years = 476 x 365 . 242 + 25 days.

 

 

Marilyn.