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Biblical Calculations 1. (70 X 7)


Marilyn C

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2 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Marilyn,,,,,

    Oh Sister,I see that sparkling fruit of "patience",,,,,,,,,God Bless you Beloved,no doubt you are a Peacemaker & I love you,,,,,,,,I just thought I'd mention it,,,,:emot-heartbeat:

    Interesting Topic & I was considering joining you BUT,I am not one to read & read & read the LONG replies and so I will refrain,,,,,,,,eschatology requires much attention and it's unfair to "half" read what anyone has contributed -by this time of day I am just plum out of steam-lol,,,,, Perhaps tomorrow?

     God Bless you all,play nice                                     To God be the Glory                 With love-in Christ,Kwik

      

Hi Kwikphilly,

You are such a delight sis. I see you around the forum encouraging, uplifting, ministering, pouring in the `oil & wine` reaching out with arms of love & compassion. Yours is not to `waste time` reading & reading this section. I`m here to help people work through what they think. I try to reflect & point out things to them. That`s the teacher in me. And obviously I am learning & open to correction as I`m human, get tired, miss read, (tend to skim read a lot).

So each to his/her own gifting & as MG has recently posted - our gifting, all make for the growth of the Body becoming like Christ. Aren`t we the blessed ones. Who would do anything else. So blessings my sis in the Lord & I am much encouraged to press on, with your great encouragement.

Yes, `play nice.`:D Love that. Marilyn.

 

 

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Ok... So I am finally back to a PC and can address several different things at once. It became tedious trying to respond and quote specific things from my phone. Before I get started I would like to say that you both seem like good people and at this point I am confident that your hearts are in the right place.

Marilyn, you in particular are a special person and you have approached me with nothing but love and respect from the beginning. It has been received and I hope that you can receive my messages with the same. I also want to clarify my post regarding the veil of confusion and Satan's deception. When I said these things I in no way meant it to mean that Satan has a hold on you because if he did it would be obvious for now. What I was speaking on was the collective messages that are taught and accepted by Christians worldwide. These collective messages have taken liberties with the word of God and have built up a picture in the minds of many Christians that are built upon these liberal uses of the Word. While I believe that these interpretations were delivered with the best of intentions, it has lead to what I feel could be disastrous consequences. If I were to take liberty with the perfect and infallible word of God, I would be claiming that God's word isn't perfect at all. That it needed a bit of massaging in order to be received the way he intended it to be received. We can read and interpret God's word, we can interpret meaning where there is no meaning provided. However, when we infer meaning to His word, while rationalizing the dismissal of the meaning that He Himself had provided to us, it is tantamount to exalting ourselves by claiming the Wisdom of God to discern His "real meaning" though it may stand in direct contradiction to other scripture. While I am not saying that is what either of you are doing, it is with this level of caution that we proceed in examining His word as it is written. That being said, in case you wonder how I can say this and yet offer my own interpretation for Daniel's sevens (shavu'iym) is because the sevens were offered as a type of riddle meant to be interpreted at a future date in the times of the end. (Daniel 12:4 and 12:9)

The first comment that I would like to address is the following regarding the lack of scripture in my comments:

14 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Daniel23,

You must be tired driving all day. Just take your time, now bro as we are discussing God`s word & it needs concentration. I posted again as I hadn`t put in a quote from you & that often means it doesn`t get registered to you. Anyway glad you are looking into it.

Also have you noticed that you say a lot of comments but you really don`t develop this with the scriptures. I`m also glad you ask earnestly, for I also have some questions for you after we have discussed this point. Let`s take it a step at a time -

 

While it is true that my last post lacked any scriptural reference, but that is only because I was on my way home and didn't have time to get into specific details of anything. That being said, my contention with you and Kan is based purely on scriptural evidence to the contrary of your respective positions. So that comment kind of took me off guard because I am very careful to not paraphrase when using the word as authority. If I were to paraphrase the position of the bible, it would be an attempt to give authority to my words rather than the Word standing as the final authority. This is not something I would ever intentionally do as I a grateful submit myself to the authority of His word as it is written.

 

15 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

God tells us prophetically, that king Cyrus will say of Jerusalem, “You shall be built, “& to the temple, “Your foundation shall be laid.” (Isa. 44: 28) This only tells us that the king (told by God) is saying that Jerusalem & the foundation of the temple will be built. It does NOT say that he will do it or decree it. This is where you, I believe are assuming he does it.

This was a bit confusing for me. I think what you are saying is that Isaiah's prophecy was of King Cyrus prophetically saying that Jerusalem would be rebuilt. So the fact that he issued a decree to rebuild the temple and restored the Israelites to Jerusalem, doesn't matter because it doesn't say "temple" in Daniel 9:25. And Isaiah's prophecy that specifically mentions Cyrus and the rebuilding of Jerusalem, doesn't confirm anything because Cyrus "says" rather than "decrees" that Jerusalem will be rebuilt?? Does this not seem confusing to you? And what about Isaiah 45:13, which was the other scripture I had referenced that you didn't mention:

"I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness:
    I will make all his ways straight.
He will rebuild my city
    and set my exiles free,
but not for a price or reward,
    says the Lord Almighty.”

So Cyrus issued a decree to restore and rebuild a house for God in Jerusalem, He restored the people to Jerusalem, He began the work of the rebuilding of the city, He was prophesied to say to Jerusalem that it would be rebuilt, he was also prophesied to rebuild the city and set the lords exiles free...

But yet, no it can't be the Cyrus decree because it has to be this one from Artaxerxes:   

18 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

`If it pleases the king, & if your servant has found favour in your sight, I ask that you send me to Judah, to the CITY of my fathers` tombs, that I may REBUILD it

This verse in Nehemiah 2:4-5 is Nehemiah requesting the King send him to Jerusalem (the city where his ancestors are buried) to rebuild it (specifically its wall). There wasn't a decree attached to this permission. There were two letters from the King, one to the governors of Trans-Euphrates for Nehemiah's safe passage and another to Asaph, to provide timber for the gate, the wall and his personal residence. These were not decrees. Further more, even if somehow we could twist the words enough to make one believe that this was a decree, how would you explain that once Artaxerxes found out that they were rebuilding the city (Ezra 4:12-24), he ordered the work to cease (Ezra 4:23-24). Had he decreed the rebuilding of Jerusalem, not only would he have known about it, but his governors would have known as well. Further in Nehemiah 2:12, Nehemiah says after leaving the king with his 2 letters, "I set out during the night with a few others. I had not told anyone what my God had put in my heart to do for Jerusalem. There were no mounts with me except the one I was riding on."  And in Nehemiah 2:16 he says, "The officials did not know where I had gone or what I was doing, because as yet I had said nothing to the Jews or the priests or nobles or officials or any others who would be doing the work." The thing about decrees are they are not secret.

I really, really, really don't understand how you can't see this? I don't understand how you get into the very finite details of Cyrus to attempt to ignore what God Himself has said. But yet, squeeze out every ounce of meaning you could possibly come up with to try to stretch God's word to fit Artaxerxes. 

I really wanted to go through the confusion that has permeated this conversation from the start of my participation in this thread, to hopefully shed some light on the level of denial here as referenced by the confusing, changing, and contradictory responses here:

1. Wrong King... Was Artaxerxes. ("Mistake acknowledged and corrected later)

On 5/1/2016 at 3:01 AM, Kan said:

When the foundations of the house of the Lord was laid, there came much opposition who wrote to king Cyrus saying that if the city is rebuilt then the king would not have dominion over it. (Ezra 3: 11.    4: 1 & 16) The king replied –

`Now give the command to make these men cease, that this city may NOT be built until the command by me.` (Ezra 4: 21)

2. The Correction- Mostly correct. The only thing I would add, as I think it might be a bit misleading, to leave it (highlighted red) as it is. The actual verse for which this statement is based says, "Then the peoples around them set out to discourage the people of Judah and make them afraid to go on building.[a] 5 They bribed officials to work against them and frustrate their plans during the entire reign of Cyrus king of Persia and down to the reign of Darius king of Persia."

On 5/1/2016 at 3:16 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Daniel23,

Thank you for your thoughts & please note my correction, (thank you for that) -

When the foundations of the house of the Lord was laid, there came much opposition in the time of king Cyrus & they eventually wrote to king Artaxerxes saying that if the city is rebuilt then the king would not have dominion over it. (Ezra 3: 11.    4: 1 & 16) The king replied –

`Now give the command to make these men cease, that this city may NOT be built until the command by me.` (Ezra 4: 21)

I am looking carefully at your comments & will reply soon.

Marilyn.

3. Correctly identifying the Cyrus decree as the decree from Daniel 9:25, would mess up another prophesy from another chapter... Huh? Should we be trying to stretch God's word to make it fit our understanding of other prophesies... Or should we be stretching our understanding to fit with God's word???

On 5/1/2016 at 1:38 PM, Kan said:

By shifting the start date for this prophecy, you end up also shifting the start date for the 2300 year prophecy. The 2300 year prophecy points to the cleansing of the sanctuary. See Daniel 8:14. This is the most important theme of Daniel, because it concerns the last and final ministry of Christ for the world. We are to be aware of this and by faith enter this holy place in heaven, by having a clearer understanding of that judgement and ministry. Hebrews 10 gives us an idea of what Paul wanted the people to understand. The purpose of the ministry of Christ is to bring people into complete harmony with God, by eradicating sin from their hearts and minds. There has to be a relation to God via the only priest God has ordained in order for that to happen.

 4. The Decree of Cyrus- Check (Now we're getting somewhere);  The work being hindered by Darius??? Oops wrong king again. Again it was Artaxerxes. Then finally it was labeled now as "the empowerment for that decree to be enacted". I am sorry I missed that part in the Bible.. 

On 5/2/2016 at 5:20 PM, Kan said:

The decree to rebuild "coming into effect." Or "going forth" as written in Daniel. 

Cyrus 536 BC, Ezra 1:1-4 the decree.

Darius 519 BC, Ezra 6:1-12 the work was hindered

Artaxerxes 457 BC, Ezra 7 the empowerment for that decree to be enacted.

 

Well sorry that it went on and on, but I wanted to make sure to include everything. I am going to pray that we can start to see what we're missing here and if I am missing something or am delusional, I will pray that this too would be revealed... Because I am starting to feel like I am taking crazy pills here. :)

In any case, Stay Blessed. 

Your Brother in Christ,

Daniel

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Hi Daniel,

I think we are getting clearer on what we are seeing in scripture. So let`s do a recap with a few extra scriptures.

- King Cyrus issued a decree to restore and rebuild a house for God in Jerusalem.

- Work hindered.

- Temple finished.

- King Artaxerxes gave letters for the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

- When the walls were finished houses were then needed to be built. (Neh. 7: 1 & 4)

`Then it was, when the wall was built & I had hung the doors .......Now the city was large & spacious, but the people in it were few, & the houses were NOT REBUILT.` (Neh. 7: 1 & 4)

 

So we can see it took a long time for Jerusalem to be restored & rebuilt. So then we ask, what did the Lord mean when He said that king Cyrus `shall build my city.` (Isa. 45: 13) (I missed that scripture before, sorry.)

Build – Heb. `banah` meaning to build – begin to build.

Thus we realise that God is saying king Cyrus shall begin to build Jerusalem, (in Isaiah) & in Ezra we see the details of the beginning of the building of Jerusalem.

 

Now we go again to Daniel 9 -

 ` Know therefore & understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore & build Jerusalem  until Messiah the Prince, there shall be 7 weeks & 62 weeks; the street shall be built again, & the wall, even in troublesome times.` (Dan. 9: 25)
 

And we realise that we need more information to pin point the `command.`

Command – Heb. `dabar,` meaning a word, a matter, decree, command, message.....
 

Is the `command, word, decree, message,` from King Cyrus or king Artaxerxes.

 

Thus my question –

Can you tell us from scripture the exact time from the `command` to Messiah the Prince?`

Command –  scripture/s `........................................` (.......)

Messiah the Prince – scripture/s  `.....................................`  (......)

 

Marilyn.

 

 

Edited by Marilyn C
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572 years and 7 months... Plus the last seven as a literal week.

you can see how it breaks down on my post.

http://daniel23.com/daniel9

:)

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I did not write what you quoted me as writing.

8 hours ago, Daniel23 said:

 

On 5/1/2016 at 8:01 PM, Kan said:

When the foundations of the house of the Lord was laid, there came much opposition who wrote to king Cyrus saying that if the city is rebuilt then the king would not have dominion over it. (Ezra 3: 11.    4: 1 & 16) The king replied –

`Now give the command to make these men cease, that this city may NOT be built until the command by me.` (Ezra 4: 21)

 

 

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8 hours ago, Daniel23 said:

you both seem like good people ?? and at this point I am confident that your hearts are in the right place. 

Marilyn, you in particular are a special person ?... and I hope that you can receive my messages... my post regarding the veil of confusion and Satan's deception. ... While I am not saying that is what either of you are doing, it is with this level of caution that we proceed in examining His word as it is written. That being said, in case you wonder how I can say this and yet offer my own interpretation for Daniel's sevens (shavu'iym) is because the sevens were offered as a type of riddle meant to be interpreted at a future date in the times of the end. (Daniel 12:4 and 12:9)

The first comment that I would like to address is the following regarding the lack of scripture in my comments:

While it is true that my last post lacked any scriptural reference, but that is only because I was on my way home and didn't have time to get into specific details of anything. That being said, my contention with you and Kan is based purely on scriptural evidence to the contrary of your respective positions. So that comment kind of took me off guard because I am very careful to not paraphrase when using the word as authority. If I were to paraphrase the position of the bible, it would be an attempt to give authority to my words rather than the Word standing as the final authority. This is not something I would ever intentionally do as I a grateful submit myself to the authority of His word as it is written.

This was a bit confusing for me. I think what you are saying is that Isaiah's prophecy was of King Cyrus prophetically saying that Jerusalem would be rebuilt. So the fact that he issued a decree to rebuild the temple and restored the Israelites to Jerusalem, doesn't matter because it doesn't say "temple" in Daniel 9:25. And Isaiah's prophecy that specifically mentions Cyrus and the rebuilding of Jerusalem, doesn't confirm anything because Cyrus "says" rather than "decrees" that Jerusalem will be rebuilt?? Does this not seem confusing to you? And what about Isaiah 45:13, which was the other scripture I had referenced that you didn't mention:

"I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness:
    I will make all his ways straight.
He will rebuild my city
    and set my exiles free,
but not for a price or reward,
    says the Lord Almighty.”

So Cyrus issued a decree to restore and rebuild a house for God in Jerusalem, He restored the people to Jerusalem, He began the work of the rebuilding of the city, He was prophesied to say to Jerusalem that it would be rebuilt, he was also prophesied to rebuild the city and set the lords exiles free...

But yet, no it can't be the Cyrus decree because it has to be this one from Artaxerxes:   

This verse in Nehemiah 2:4-5 is Nehemiah requesting the King send him to Jerusalem (the city where his ancestors are buried) to rebuild it (specifically its wall). There wasn't a decree attached to this permission. There were two letters from the King, one to the governors of Trans-Euphrates for Nehemiah's safe passage and another to Asaph, to provide timber for the gate, the wall and his personal residence. These were not decrees. Further more, even if somehow we could twist the words enough to make one believe that this was a decree, how would you explain that once Artaxerxes found out that they were rebuilding the city (Ezra 4:12-24), he ordered the work to cease (Ezra 4:23-24). Had he decreed the rebuilding of Jerusalem, not only would he have known about it, but his governors would have known as well. Further in Nehemiah 2:12, Nehemiah says after leaving the king with his 2 letters, "I set out during the night with a few others. I had not told anyone what my God had put in my heart to do for Jerusalem. There were no mounts with me except the one I was riding on."  And in Nehemiah 2:16 he says, "The officials did not know where I had gone or what I was doing, because as yet I had said nothing to the Jews or the priests or nobles or officials or any others who would be doing the work." The thing about decrees are they are not secret.

I really, really, really don't understand how you can't see this? I don't understand how you get into the very finite details of Cyrus to attempt to ignore what God Himself has said. But yet, squeeze out every ounce of meaning you could possibly come up with to try to stretch God's word to fit Artaxerxes. 

I really wanted to go through the confusion that has permeated this conversation from the start of my participation in this thread, to hopefully shed some light on the level of denial here as referenced by the confusing, changing, and contradictory responses here: --------------  What is so difficult to understand about the typical processes of a government ruling?

1. Wrong King... Was Artaxerxes. ("Mistake acknowledged and corrected later)

2. The Correction- Mostly correct. The only thing I would add, as I think it might be a bit misleading, to leave it (highlighted red) as it is. The actual verse for which this statement is based says, "Then the peoples around them set out to discourage the people of Judah and make them afraid to go on building.[a] 5 They bribed officials to work against them and frustrate their plans during the entire reign of Cyrus king of Persia and down to the reign of Darius king of Persia."

3. Correctly identifying the Cyrus decree as the decree from Daniel 9:25, would mess up another prophesy from another chapter... Huh? Should we be trying to stretch God's word to make it fit our understanding of other prophesies... Or should we be stretching our understanding to fit with God's word???

That has been your intention since joining WCF- to make the Bible seem to say that your calculations fit the bill for another time set from Cyrus, instead of 457 BC.

 4. The Decree of Cyrus- Check (Now we're getting somewhere);  The work being hindered by Darius??? Oops wrong king again. Again it was Artaxerxes. Then finally it was labeled now

as "the empowerment for that decree to be enacted". ........I am sorry I missed that part in the Bible.. --- but you did not miss a little sarcasm here, - "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks"

 Well sorry that it went on and on, but I wanted to make sure to include everything. I am going to pray that we can start to see what we're missing here and if I am missing something or am delusional, I will pray that this too would be revealed... Because I am starting to feel like I am taking crazy pills here. :) 

In any case, Stay Blessed. 

Your Brother in Christ,

Daniel

I have added my comments in red. 

The story in Ezra shows that there was opposition going on with the rebuilding of Jerusalem. It is obvious that Satan was behind the stalling and delays which took place for different reasons, in different times. But it did not alter the prophecy about the time it would take to rebuild the wall. Daniel says it would be done in troubled times. There is no smooth transition between the written decree and the subsequent orders. Your theory of numbering shows an interesting pattern, as numbers can, but you still have to tweak them to fit. 

It can be done with a few prophecies. For example, the JW's arrive at the date of Christ's return to earth as 1914 by doing what you have done, an experiment with figures. It is part of their doctrines, but it is false. 

Daniel 9 is an explanation of Daniel 8. The 490 years are the first part of the 2300 years. At the end of Daniel in chapter 12 we are given another three sets of numbers which tie in the other end of the 2300 years. There are 9 time spans altogether, which fit into the 2300 years - securing both ends, as well as the events around the Messiah. So those times cannot be stretched and changed without being dishonest.

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6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Daniel,

I think we are getting clearer on what we are seeing in scripture. So let`s do a recap with a few extra scriptures.

- King Cyrus issued a decree to restore and rebuild a house for God in Jerusalem.

- Work hindered.

- Temple finished.

- King Artaxerxes gave letters for the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

- When the walls were finished houses were then needed to be built. (Neh. 7: 1 & 4)

`Then it was, when the wall was built & I had hung the doors .......Now the city was large & spacious, but the people in it were few, & the houses were NOT REBUILT.` (Neh. 7: 1 & 4)

 

So we can see it took a long time for Jerusalem to be restored & rebuilt. So then we ask, what did the Lord mean when He said that king Cyrus `shall build my city.` (Isa. 45: 13) (I missed that scripture before, sorry.)

Build – Heb. `banah` meaning to build – begin to build.

Thus we realise that God is saying king Cyrus shall begin to build Jerusalem, (in Isaiah) & in Ezra we see the details of the beginning of the building of Jerusalem.

 

Now we go again to Daniel 9 -

 ` Know therefore & understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore & build Jerusalem  until Messiah the Prince, there shall be 7 weeks & 62 weeks; the street shall be built again, & the wall, even in troublesome times.` (Dan. 9: 25)
 

And we realise that we need more information to pin point the `command.`

Command – Heb. `dabar,` meaning a word, a matter, decree, command, message.....
 

Is the `command, word, decree, message,` from King Cyrus or king Artaxerxes.

 

Thus my question –

Can you tell us from scripture the exact time from the `command` to Messiah the Prince?`

Command –  scripture/s `........................................` (.......)

Messiah the Prince – scripture/s  `.....................................`  (......)

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

Hi Marilyn

The "exact" time the Command came was here;

Daniel 9:23   At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

When Daniel started praying for Jerusalem, the angel of the Lord appeared and gave the Command this exact evening.

Exactly when?

  Daniel 9:1   In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

  Daniel 9:2   In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

  Daniel 9:3   And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:

 

It would be pretty hard to say exactly what year that was.  All we know it was in the first year of Darius' reign that the angel came forth to give the command to Daniel.... that exact evening when Daniel started praying.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Daniel23 said:

572 years and 7 months... Plus the last seven as a literal week.

you can see how it breaks down on my post.

http://daniel23.com/daniel9

:)

Hi Daniel,

I have read your post & see that it is your interpretation & you have not supplied scriptures to support your `months, & `days` theory.

Thus my question –

Can you tell us from scripture the exact time from the `command` to Messiah the Prince?`

Command –  scripture/s `........................................` (.......)

Messiah the Prince – scripture/s  `.....................................`  (......)

 

Marilyn.

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8 hours ago, Sister said:

 

Hi Marilyn

The "exact" time the Command came was here;

Daniel 9:23   At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

When Daniel started praying for Jerusalem, the angel of the Lord appeared and gave the Command this exact evening.

Exactly when?

  Daniel 9:1   In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

  Daniel 9:2   In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

  Daniel 9:3   And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:

 

It would be pretty hard to say exactly what year that was.  All we know it was in the first year of Darius' reign that the angel came forth to give the command to Daniel.... that exact evening when Daniel started praying.

 

 

Hi Sister,

If it is as you say then it would be 69 x 7 weeks till Messiah the Prince. That would give you the exact date. Find the date for Messiah the Prince in scripture & there you have your measurement.

Marilyn.

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9 hours ago, Kan said:

I have added my comments in red. 

The story in Ezra shows that there was opposition going on with the rebuilding of Jerusalem. It is obvious that Satan was behind the stalling and delays which took place for different reasons, in different times. But it did not alter the prophecy about the time it would take to rebuild the wall. Daniel says it would be done in troubled times. There is no smooth transition between the written decree and the subsequent orders. Your theory of numbering shows an interesting pattern, as numbers can, but you still have to tweak them to fit. 

It can be done with a few prophecies. For example, the JW's arrive at the date of Christ's return to earth as 1914 by doing what you have done, an experiment with figures. It is part of their doctrines, but it is false. 

Daniel 9 is an explanation of Daniel 8. The 490 years are the first part of the 2300 years. At the end of Daniel in chapter 12 we are given another three sets of numbers which tie in the other end of the 2300 years. There are 9 time spans altogether, which fit into the 2300 years - securing both ends, as well as the events around the Messiah. So those times cannot be stretched and changed without being dishonest.

Hi Kan,

I have read your `2300 years` quite a few times & would ask you, -  Can you provide scripture to support the change from `days to years?`

`For 2300 days; then the sanctuary & the host shall be cleansed.` (Dan. 8: 14)

Marilyn.

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