Biblical Calculations 1. (70 X 7)

[Kan]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Kan,

I have read your `2300 years` quite a few times & would ask you, -  Can you provide scripture to support the change from `days to years?`

`For 2300 days; then the sanctuary & the host shall be cleansed.` (Dan. 8: 14)

Marilyn.

There are a few, but when I studied it, I did not use any scripture, because I was familiar with how ancient people used those terms, and especially the interpretation of visions or dreams where real time is compressed to the ratio of one year being represented as one day. For instance, an hour in a dream equals 15 days in real time, half an hour 7.5 days, and so forth.

Secondly, I worked out all the time prophecies in Daniel Revelation and other books and found that vision time is different than real time.

But unless the prophecy was given in symbol there was no reason to change it. For instance, God said to Jeremiah that Israel will go into captivity for 70 years, which was not symbolic in a dream, but literal. I discovered by simply applying literal time and then dream time to these prophecies in Daniel that only one of them works. It's not that difficult, but most people have not done that simple exercise.

Apart from a couple of dreams in the Bible, like Pharaoh in the days of Joseph, Daniel and Revelation are the only books that deal extensively with symbolic time as such.

Some religions have made the mistake of either not taking any notice of dream time, or translating literal time and expanding it into dream time. Rapturists, tibbers and JWs.

Here is an example of how ancient people used terms for time. Starting in Genesis 5 the reader is soon introduced to the principle. From there on the reader will pick up on a few others scattered through the Bible. 

In some cases God instructs the usage of a day to symbolize a year. E.g; Ezekiel 4:6, Numbers 14:34, (Ezekiel lived in the days of Daniel).

How can we know that one year = 360 days and not 365 days?

That's easy. The time times and half a time or the dividing of time, denotes three and a half times, which time period is given in Daniel and Revelation. Revelation 12 uses these terms differently in the same chapter, verse 6 and 14. By comparing the two it tells us that one time = a year or 360 days = a year. Just to confirm that conclusion, chapter 11:3 uses 42 months, - 30 days in a month, times 42 =1260.

How can we be sure these time frames are not talking about different times and events? By comparing the language, symbols and presentation of each event.

It used to annoy me that the Bible does not come outright and tell us this and that. But our curiosity and need to discover mysteries will drive us to ask God for help, it is then that things will become obvious, so a correct understanding of the prophecies cannot come without connecting with God, and in this way they save the reader, which is quite endearing.

This is made clear in the beginning of Revelation, "Blessed is he that reads..." And in the end of Daniel "None of the wicked will understand..."

The codes and symbols in the dreams are there to keep the wicked confused and out of it, but the church of Christ in the last days has the spirit of prophesy, Revelation 19:10.

It is not likely that anyone has all the answers, let alone all at once, but we pick up bits and pieces as we go along, and as a people we share. 

[Marilyn C]

Thank you Kan,

I agree with some of what you say, but to me there is no direction from scripture to change the 2300 days to 2300 years. If we want to continue this discussion we had better go to the 7 year thread.

Blessings, Marilyn.

[Daniel23]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Daniel,

I have read your post & see that it is your interpretation & you have not supplied scriptures to support your `months, & `days` theory.

Thus my question –

Can you tell us from scripture the exact time from the `command` to Messiah the Prince?`

Command –  scripture/s `........................................` (.......)

Messiah the Prince – scripture/s  `.....................................`  (......)

 

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

I did not supply scripture to support the years, months and day theory as there isn't any scriptural evidence of that.  However, that being said there is no scriptural evidence contradicting this either. This prophecy was meant to be revealed in "the times of the end". It is a riddle of sorts, but if we read it as it was written in its simplest form, then counting sevens would make the most sense. I would argue that if you showed a 1st grade child a list of years listed from one to one hundred and asked them to show you seven "sevens", the would count the units with "sevens" in their digits. Again, Daniel's using the word "shavui'ym" for sevens is significant as it is used only 5 times in the entire OT. I have seen it defined as literally seven, a period of seven, units of seven, or even a calculation of seven. I would argue that it literally means a unit with seven, this for whatever reason makes the most sense to me, but I will acknowledge only because it makes it more convenient. However I don't believe it is necessary to dig that deep into it. The Lord created His word to be read in the context and meaning of specifically for this appointed time, while also making it to be read and understood specifically for the many generations before us. There are no accidents. So when I read the NIV version of Daniel as sevens and the KJV as weeks, it didn't make sense to me and I couldn't reconcile the two. So I dug into it.  I tried everything I could to make intellectual sense of these 3 verses 24-27 in Daniel and I felt that veil of confusion over my mind. I knew at that moment there was no way I would ever be able to intellectually make sense of it as Daniel intended. So I said out loud, "That's it God! I quit!". It is only after that moment of surrender that the answer came clearly to mind. Now I know that people, such as Kan, frown on me claiming the Holy Spirit's help, but I don't really care. There is no explanation for what happened. Could I be deceived? Absolutely. But the bottom line is, a simple thought came to mind. "Why don't you try counting sevens?" So I looked at the 62 and started counting them out... 7,17,27,37,47...etc. And when I got to "77" I "knew" that it was two sevens. I wrote it out and it came to 567 years.. Which 567 years from the decree of Cyrus in 539 BC (or 3222 Hebrew) was 28 AD (or 3789). Now I can't quite convey what that experience was like and many will think I am exaggerating, but I can assure you that I wrote out the numbers once and counted them once and up to that point I thought it was the Holy Spirit, but honestly I wasn't sure of it. Well, needless to say, I was astounded when the math lined up and the timeline was in the window of the crucifixion.  Next I knew that I had to do something with the seven sevens...

(SIDE NOTE: I didn't combine the sevens as I believed that they were separated for a reason, and like Isaac Newton said,  "We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel's meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbering used by no nation." So looking at it like a math problem, I structure it like this with "D= Cyrus Decree" and "C=Crucifixtion":

       D+7x+62y+1z=C 

So looking back to scripture, I read verse 25 again and it says, "...there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’".  I immediately "thought" of months and years.  So I read it as if it said, "...there will be seven 'months (with sevens)', and sixty-two 'years (with sevens)'."  And I further confirmed when reading Daniel's explaining the time in Daniel 10:4 "On the twenty-fourth day of the first month...". Though he didn't use years in this passage it would have been common to end with "... in the third year of Darius" . So I decided to count the sevens in "months".  It came to 67 months or 5 years 7 months. Add this to the 28AD it comes to 33AD (or 3794). If we were to add 7 months to the beginning of the start of 3794 on October 4th, 33AD, we come to Wednesday, April 14th, 34AD. The week to the day before Passover began. Add in the last "seven (of days)", and you have the timeline of Jesus entering Jerusalem, stopping the sacrifice and offering at the temple, telling the Pharisees to destroy the temple (His body) and he would raise it 3 days (setting up the "abomination that causes desolation"), and ultimately His sacrifice on the cross. 

I will admit that this is a tight time frame (as the only way all 3 values work is this timeline), but it is miraculous without stretching scripture or using complex math to make it work, that it comes within the precise window that is generally accepted (though not entirely void of objections) time frame for all events. You can discern for yourself, but the math definitely works.

 

God Bless You,

 

Daniel

 

 

[Daniel23]

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Daniel,

I have read your post & see that it is your interpretation & you have not supplied scriptures to support your `months, & `days` theory.

Thus my question –

Can you tell us from scripture the exact time from the `command` to Messiah the Prince?`

Command –  scripture/s `........................................` (.......)

Messiah the Prince – scripture/s  `.....................................`  (......)

 

Marilyn.

I also want to say that the values of "periods of seven years" (or weeks of years) is also a interpreted value not provided by Daniel. So to apply scrutiny to one you would have to with the other. Afterall if Daniel wanted to use 7 times 7 year periods, he would have likely used language similar to Leviticus 25:8:

 “‘Count off seven sabbath years—seven times seven years—so that the seven sabbath years amount to a period of forty-nine years."

 

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, Daniel23 said:

I also want to say that the values of "periods of seven years" (or weeks of years) is also a interpreted value not provided by Daniel. So to apply scrutiny to one you would have to with the other. Afterall if Daniel wanted to use 7 times 7 year periods, he would have likely used language similar to Leviticus 25:8:

 “‘Count off seven sabbath years—seven times seven years—so that the seven sabbath years amount to a period of forty-nine years."

 

Hi Daniel,

Thank you for all your detail & I will comment on that soon. Now I just want to say that the periods of 7 years is interpreted in Daniel. Also the command & the date of Messiah the Prince are also in God`s word.

Blessings, Marilyn.

[Kan]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Thank you Kan,

I agree with some of what you say, but to me there is no direction from scripture to change the 2300 days to 2300 years. If we want to continue this discussion we had better go to the 7 year thread.

Blessings, Marilyn.

The direction is to work out the prophecies, trying the literal time first and then the vision time, and testing it against the book of Ezra, and the times of Christ. But if you don't do that simple exercise to find out whether the days are literal or not, then you will have thrown away one of the most basic keys to understanding these prophecies.

[Daniel23]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Daniel,

Thank you for all your detail & I will comment on that soon. Now I just want to say that the periods of 7 years is interpreted in Daniel. Also the command & the date of Messiah the Prince are also in God`s word.

Blessings, Marilyn.

Please make sure you expand on this... ??

[Marilyn C]

Hi Daniel,

Now you said -

`I did not supply scripture to support the years, months and day theory as there isn't any scriptural evidence of that......... . It is only after that moment of surrender that the answer came clearly to mind....... Could I be deceived? Absolutely.`

So you see that you are asking us to believe your theory, based NOT on scripture but a `thought` that came to mind, (self, God or a demon). And that is not what we base our trust in. It is ALWAYS God`s word that we base our trust, our teaching, our life on. Otherwise it is every one`s thoughts & opinions.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Daniel,

So let`s look at God`s word & His interpretation of His numbers.

Seven – Heb. `shaba` to be complete, to seven oneself, swear an oath                         

Seven – Heb. `shibah`  a prime cardinal number; seven, as the sacred full one.

God has given special meaning to the number seven when dealing with His Feasts, His laws & judgments.

 

Seventy – Heb. `shibiym` seventy. (note - used over 50 times in God`s word)

`I, Daniel, understand by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the Lord, given through Jeremiah the prophet, that He (God) would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.` (Dan. 9: 2)

`...the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths. As long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfil seventy years.` (2 Chron. 36: 21)

Here we see that God is giving the land its Sabbath rests over the period that Israel rebelled, (490 years). Thus every seventh day added up to 70 years.

Then God required Israel to be disciplined for the full time they rebelled – 490 years.  (70 x 7 years) This we see is broken down into 3 measurements.

 

Seventy times seven.

`Seventy weeks are determined for you people & for your holy city.......know therefore & understand that from the going forth of the command to restore & build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks, & sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again & the wall, even in troublesome times......Messiah cut off.....a covenant for one week` (Dan. 9: 24 - 27)

1. 7 weeks.

2. 62 weeks.

3. 1 week.

Weeks – Heb. `shebuah,` sevened, ie. a week, especially of years.

 

1. 7 weeks – seven sevened. 7 x 7.

God gave Israel this number when it related to the seven Sabbaths – 49 years.

Seven times seven – seven as the sacred full one.

`And you shall count seven Sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years; & the time of the seven Sabbaths of years shall be to you forty-nine years.` (Lev. 25: 8)

Thus we see that God has set a precedent & so is establishing beyond a doubt what the measurement is – weeks meaning seven years. The 7 x 7 is the phrase for the measurement of 7 x 7 years.

 

To be continued. Marilyn.

[Daniel23]

I

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Daniel,

Now you said -

`I did not supply scripture to support the years, months and day theory as there isn't any scriptural evidence of that......... . It is only after that moment of surrender that the answer came clearly to mind....... Could I be deceived? Absolutely.`

So you see that you are asking us to believe your theory, based NOT on scripture but a `thought` that came to mind, (self, God or a demon). And that is not what we base our trust in. It is ALWAYS God`s word that we base our trust, our teaching, our life on. Otherwise it is every one`s thoughts & opinions.

Marilyn.

 

Marilyn,

I am not sure where you think that I am basing anything I believe off of anything but the bible. I have been most adamant about not taking Liberty with God's word, so to try to throw that in my face is disingenuous and really surprises me. The fact that you might not believe what I say was inspired by God, is not relevant to the conversation. What is relevant is even if it was just a "thought", as you put it, I validated by the Word. You can continue to put your faith in the teachings of man, and I hope it works out for you. I will continue to my trust in God (and his Word) and look for the Holy Spirit to guide me to where He wants me to be.

 

God Bless,

 

Daniel