Daniel 8

[ARGOSY]

1 hour ago, Kan said:

The great tribulation which Jesus spoke about was ofcourse future, according to Daniel. From 538 AD to 1798 AD. That is 1260 years. Also Jesus spoke of the desolation of Jerusalem as future, proving that the prophecies in Daniel were to be calculated in vision time, where one day is one year. If they had been literal days, they would have been fulfilled within a few years under the ancient Persian reign.

The 3 1/2 years either side of the crucifixion, because the Messiah was cut off in the middle of the week according to Gabriel, has nothing to do with the 1260 years, or of a future trib. Somehow in another application tribbers use, the last week of the 70 weeks (for Israel to get it together for the Messiah), is separated from the 70 week period, and coarsely flung into the future... Where are the instructions in the Bible to do that? There are no time references given for that application are there? Anyway it's probably off topic. Sorry.

You keep referring to Daniel 9 as a day=year prophecy to back up your day = year methodology that you call "vision time".  The "seven" of Hebrew referred both to a week AND a seven year period. The word "seven" had a dual usage. In retrospect it's pretty clear that Daniel 9 is a year = year prophecy. (sevens being seven year periods as per their common usage). So Daniel 9 is NOT proof of your day=year methodology, it shows a year=year.

 

Regarding a historical fulfilment of the abomination:

1) The crucifixion opened the way for Gentile salvation. Until that moment Jesus came only for the Jews. After that moment the gospel/truth was there for all. So by definition, the Jewish timeline ended at the crucifixion.

2) There was no satisfactory abomination appearing at the moment of crucifixion. If the timeline continued , there would have been an obvious fulfilment for that much mentioned moment.

3) There was no satisfactory historical ending of the 70 sevens as per v24:  "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place

I see nothing like that occurring around then.

4) All dating methods trying to prove a date for the ending around 32-35 AD fail. 

5) Jesus associated the abomination of Daniel with the time just before the second coming.

 

Added to that there are numerous reference to a future 3.5 year Jewish period that start with an evil moment at the temple, and end with the second coming, the clear fulfilment of v24 

On the balance of arguments I would go with the "uncomfortable" gap that fits very well into the prophecy, rather than trying to create a 3.5 year historical fulfilment with no satisfactory matches with prophecy. 

 

No-one will agree with me, but I see Daniel 12 as referring to this break in the Jewish timeline, the gap:

¹¹ “From the time/season (long indefinite age) from when the daily sacrifice is abolished and until the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

486.5 JEWISH  years pass. Then the crucifixion (final sacrifice) and then a long Gentile season for the gospel to the nations. Then the abomination followed by 3.5 JEWISH years until the fulfilment of v24.

 

 

[SINNERSAVED]

I wanted to add  my two cents if I may to this, first I do not know how you both figure this al out, and its over my head to keep up, but its very interesting, and I try to follow it but see, something missing in it, and I cannot put my finger on, it

 so if I don't make any sense, please let me know, but looking at all that is written hear on this thread, and please correct me if I am wrong, if Jesus in matthew was talking a dual meaning, as what happened to the temple and the abomination of desolation, that already took place in history, and then the lawless one to come and be revealed in the future, in the same chapter, then we need to be careful in the figuring out of the days and the times, for the abomination, I believe has already happen, and that would be in the past,

 now the reveal of the lawless one is a mystery and its to happen in our time, and the falling away the apostacia, also, and I can see that we have these two already, so , I do not see any counting of the 1260  days or the 1335 days for that was past,

 the 70th weeks, I also believe to be complete, and now we have the end of the time, the last days , as the tribulation is come, and the world goes into term as a pregnant women, in labor, and we that will have to choose whom we will serve for the mark of the beast or the beast system is the only thing mot yet currently in play, and this is what I believe many are missing

 I am not  telling anything , anyone does not see, in this time and age, but we are on the brink of a chaos, event  if it be by war, or invasion, or financial collapse, or mulitiple events at one time,put together

 but with that said, persecution has come and we are now fighting to defend what is left of Gods word and our Christianity in this world , we have crossed the line ,of no return, and so , the beast system is on the horizon, and many will fall into despair, lose Jobs and the world will be tossed up side down, and so through this we see, the rulers taking control of the constitutions our civil liberties and have banned the right of freedom of speech , to proclaim our God and jesus as our belief,

 so what is next, for this generation, God said we are looking for a sign ?and a sign will not be given, and so , only tribulation, persecution and death for following Jesus , is evident and is here now

 the delusion of God allows the non believer to not see the glory of God and the truth , for they are seared by their passions of greed power and control,and the churches are saying we will not endure tribulation ? what if they are wrong, ?have we fallen for this lie?

Jesus said we will, and I will bet , He knows,

 while we have been watching football and other television drama to keep us occupied and the presidential movement, which was a diversion  i think, we have been set up for failure by the powers that are in control, and we need to now , sit down with our families, and tell them about the love of God ,and the saving Grace of Jesus,? for there is coming  and that day is already in view, where we will have to suffer ( satans wrath in this time ), and be strong and endure until the end ,

no one talks about (satans wrath ) that is prior to the wrath of God, and through this we continue to say when this happens or that happens, as if there is a system of steps that must happen, before we see the last days, in play, even the non believer can tell you we are in the last days, and so now we must stand, and be firm, and not follow the world , and to be called out be prepared for, there is a reason  why !!!!

Jesus said the way is narrow and only a few go through, !!!!

for the narrow is the way ,and  its  going to be the hard way , the resistance of the system to be, that is here, and many will fold and give up to the system, for when evil comes to your door, and people are taken away and killed for what they believe in, this will separate the sheep from the goats on earth, the true believers and the luke warm

 we are like sheep are lead, to the slaughter, but no one is yelling the alarm, for what good is the watchman that sits on the wall ? that does not warn the people of the wolves are coming, ?

 I hope this helps and if there is anything I left ,out or still need help with , I am open for any advise, blessing

 peace and love to all

[Marilyn C]

Hi SINNERSAVED,

Good to see you talking out your thoughts there, bro. Good idea. Now have you ever considered that Jesus, while on earth, was telling the people of Israel their future? Then when He ascended & told Paul the revelation of His Body, (the called out ones) that the Lord was giving us more understanding, especially in regards to our future. We can read of what will happen to Israel & the nations in the tribulation, however we need to appreciate what the Lord is doing in His Body at this time & for what purpose. `Called out ones,` means called out of Israel & the nations. Thus we are a specific group for a specific purpose.

Marilyn.

[SINNERSAVED]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi SINNERSAVED,

Good to see you talking out your thoughts there, bro. Good idea. Now have you ever considered that Jesus, while on earth, was telling the people of Israel their future? Then when He ascended & told Paul the revelation of His Body, (the called out ones) that the Lord was giving us more understanding, especially in regards to our future. We can read of what will happen to Israel & the nations in the tribulation, however we need to appreciate what the Lord is doing in His Body at this time & for what purpose. `Called out ones,` means called out of Israel & the nations. Thus we are a specific group for a specific purpose.

Marilyn.

Well Hello, Marilyn C, its good to see you back on topics,

I have to say that , I have gotten lost just trying to keep up with this topic , for there is so much information, that has been generated and is overwhelming for me to read , but I am also fascinated by what is being talked about,

but any way, so this is my question and thought, if in the matthew scripture , there is a conversation of pass and future with in a verse, I never thought it be challenging, so if we look at it , we are talking about the abomination of desolation, and then we go to at the end of the tribulation, future, this is pretty heavy , and so many I do not think catches this, you do see what I am saying of course, for many of what we are looking for in the future was already completed in the pass ?

so I am trying to find the system and how believers are to break the so called code, in understanding scripture  as it is meant to be understood, by only the ones that are in the spirit,

blessing and shalom my sister

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, SINNERSAVED said:

Well Hello, Marilyn C, its good to see you back on topics,

I have to say that , I have gotten lost just trying to keep up with this topic , for there is so much information, that has been generated and is overwhelming for me to read , but I am also fascinated by what is being talked about,

but any way, so this is my question and thought, if in the matthew scripture , there is a conversation of pass and future with in a verse, I never thought it be challenging, so if we look at it , we are talking about the abomination of desolation, and then we go to at the end of the tribulation, future, this is pretty heavy , and so many I do not think catches this, you do see what I am saying of course, for many of what we are looking for in the future was already completed in the pass ?

so I am trying to find the system and how believers are to break the so called code, in understanding scripture  as it is meant to be understood, by only the ones that are in the spirit,

blessing and shalom my sister

Hi SINNERSAVED,

Thanks for the greeting. I`m just sitting back a bit & seeing where people are discussing & pop in now & then.

 

The code or system as you describe it is God`s interpretation of His word. The biggest key that I can help you with & will clear away a lot of mix ups is -

1. The Body of Christ, 2. Israel, 3. The nations.

Find out what God says to each & what their specific inheritances are & that will clear up much confusion.

 

Personally I see the 2 biggest errors in reading God`s word  -

1. It`s all about me. That is putting us at the centre instead of Christ. Yes we can read about other people but everything is NOT about us.

2. Allegorising - turning everything into whatever. We must always look into God`s word for His interpretation. 

 

Marilyn.

[Kan]

23 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

You keep referring to Daniel 9 as a day=year prophecy to back up your day = year methodology that you call "vision time".  The "seven" of Hebrew referred both to a week AND a seven year period. The word "seven" had a dual usage. In retrospect it's pretty clear that Daniel 9 is a year = year prophecy. (sevens being seven year periods as per their common usage). So Daniel 9 is NOT proof of your day=year methodology, it shows a year=year.

"Seventy weeks" in literal time is about 22 months. And "seven weeks and three score and two weeks" or 69 weeks "unto the Messiah" is roughly the same. So if we understand these times as literal, then Jesus would have died about two years from the "commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem." In 455 BC.

That doesn't add up does it?

But applied in years, the arrival of the Messiah at His baptism, mission and sacrifice, all fulfill the prophecies.

It was how Jesus knew the time of His own death. It was how He knew about the destruction of Jerusalem, and the prophecies of the AC reigning for 1260 years, that He talked about as a great tribulation. Paul knew the same. And John was shown the future by Christ through visions of the Holy Spirit and the angels. A repeat of Daniel and more detail of the Christian era right until the last day.

The prophecies of Daniel begin in his day and end with the second advent of Christ. Likewise the prophecies of John trace the times from his day to the end. Neither book has squeezed all the events into a couple of years for some time in our future. They have faithfully marked all the major turns in history right until the end. There are no gaps, and empty millenniums, no silence about the powers which wet the earth by the blood of the saints. No avoiding the plain truth about the abominations.

 

[ARGOSY]

On 3/9/2016 at 2:20 PM, Kan said:

"Seventy weeks" in literal time is about 22 months. And "seven weeks and three score and two weeks" or 69 weeks "unto the Messiah" is roughly the same. So if we understand these times as literal, then Jesus would have died about two years from the "commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem." In 455 BC.

That doesn't add up does it?

But applied in years, the arrival of the Messiah at His baptism, mission and sacrifice, all fulfill the prophecies.

It was how Jesus knew the time of His own death. It was how He knew about the destruction of Jerusalem, and the prophecies of the AC reigning for 1260 years, that He talked about as a great tribulation. Paul knew the same. And John was shown the future by Christ through visions of the Holy Spirit and the angels. A repeat of Daniel and more detail of the Christian era right until the last day.

The prophecies of Daniel begin in his day and end with the second advent of Christ. Likewise the prophecies of John trace the times from his day to the end. Neither book has squeezed all the events into a couple of years for some time in our future. They have faithfully marked all the major turns in history right until the end. There are no gaps, and empty millenniums, no silence about the powers which wet the earth by the blood of the saints. No avoiding the plain truth about the abominations.

 

Hmmm  Kan, its of no use trying to communicate you if you do not read what I write and respond to what I write?  Not so?

The Hebrew does not refer to a "week"

The Hebrew refers to a "seven" which can mean 7 days and can also mean 7 years. You think that Daniel 9 is referring to 70 weeks. No... it is referring to 70 "sevens".  I told you about the dual meaning of the word "Seven" yet you carry on as if Daniel 9 refers to weeks.

A seven is a period of seven years, Daniel 9 is a year=year prophecy.   It is referring to 490 years.

[ARGOSY]

On 3/6/2016 at 11:13 PM, Dave Watchman said:

What about the Edict of Toleration?

It's not like it was anything earth shattering or anything but it was something.

Did you know that Suleiman the Magnificent also made a decree to restore and build Jerusalem?

From Wikipedia:

Prophetic interpretations[edit]

The Edict was seen by some especially among the religious as a specific sign leading towards the fulfillment of prophecy.

Research conducted by Michael Sours[4] into this subject and the records of the development of the Edict did not refer directly to the Jews but rather infers religious tolerance through ending executions for apostasy for Jews that seemed to convert making their social situation easier while actually keeping their personal and group identity in their Judaic religion. Jerusalem has had the largest Jewish population in Palestine in recent centuries since about 1844[7] and been majority Jewish since about 1852.[8]

The Edict was first publicly commented upon by Reverend Edward Bickersteth in his publication, Practical Guide to the Prophecies in the 1844 edition.[3] Adventist William Miller, and those that disagreed with him, though unaware of the Edict and the diplomacy around it, still looked to the fortunes of the Ottoman Empire even in the period.[9] Miller pointed to the year because of the 2300 day prophecy of Daniel 8:14, relying on the Day-year principle. The 2300 days are understood to represent 2300 years stretching from 457 BC, the calculated starting date of the 70 weeks prophecy based on the 3rd decree found in Ezra, thus leading to 1843/4. Bickersteth acknowledged the same interpretation and added a second - Ezekiel 4:5 - as a parallel to start the clock for understanding Revelation 9:15; taking 390 years as a period for persecution of Christians in the End time. Bickersteth takes this persecution from the triumph of Ottoman rule of Constantinople in 1453, thus 1453+390 is 1843/4, directly before these events. Thus, independently of Miller, a number of Christian authors followed the significance of this declaration from Bickersteth including Alfred Edersheim,[10] a Jewish convert to Christianity and a Biblical scholar, and Henry Grattan Guinness[11] who broadened the themes of the understanding of the edict and its importance, and into the early 20th century with Worth Smith who mentioned it in his 1934 Miracle of the Ages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Toleration_1844

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Toleration_1844#Prophetic_interpretations

Interesting. But I'm not even close to being convinced of your view on the 2300 of Daniel 8.  Yes the decree to restore Jerusalem was around 457 BC but that was not a stopping of sacrifices and 1844 was not a reconsecration of the sanctuary. 

I prefer the Antiochus Epiphanes view, of the 2300 evenings and mornings during which a king from one of the 4 Greek kingdoms desecrated the temple for 1150 days, stopping sacrifices for 2300 evenings and mornings until the sanctuary was reconsecrated.

[Kan]

11 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Interesting. But I'm not even close to being convinced of your view on the 2300 of Daniel 8.  Yes the decree to restore Jerusalem was around 457 BC but that was not a stopping of sacrifices and 1844 was not a reconsecration of the sanctuary. 

I prefer the Antiochus Epiphanes view, of the 2300 evenings and mornings during which a king from one of the 4 Greek kingdoms desecrated the temple for 1150 days, stopping sacrifices for 2300 evenings and mornings until the sanctuary was reconsecrated.

I understand that a week means 7. What I don't understand is how some people place the last week of the 70, into the future.

The "stopping of sacrifices," occurred in the middle of the last week of the 70, when Jesus died. 

The cleansing of the sanctuary would begin after the end of the 2300, as said.

By the way, there are no 1150 days in any Bible prophecy. 

Antiochus is nothing.

He is not even mentioned in the Bible, he was not greater than Persia or Greece as the Bible has him, he did not rule the fourth kingdom at any stage in any way. 

Antiochus is as good as fiction, except that the Papacy has used this exaggerated tag as a pathetic decoy for itself as the true system of the Antichrist.

[ARGOSY]

1 hour ago, Kan said:

I understand that a week means 7. What I don't understand is how some people place the last week of the 70, into the future.

The "stopping of sacrifices," occurred in the middle of the last week of the 70, when Jesus died. 

The cleansing of the sanctuary would begin after the end of the 2300, as said.

By the way, there are no 1150 days in any Bible prophecy. 

Antiochus is nothing.

He is not even mentioned in the Bible, he was not greater than Persia or Greece as the Bible has him, he did not rule the fourth kingdom at any stage in any way. 

Antiochus is as good as fiction, except that the Papacy has used this exaggerated tag as a pathetic decoy for itself as the true system of the Antichrist.

Most of these objections are already covered in this thread. The books of Maccabbees were not included in the bible, yet these are very significant books in Jewish history which include the story of Antiochus and clearly dates the 1150 days of the desecration of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Jews see Antiochus as the fulfilment of Daniel 8. The prophecy in Daniel 8 refers to 2300  "EVENINGS AND MORNINGS" which is 1150 days.

 I agree that the stopping of sacrifices occurred in the middle of the last seven, but the last 3.5 years show no historical fulfilment. Dan 9v24 is not fulfilled 3.5 years after the crucifixion, as it should be. No abomination is found at the time of the crucifixion.  The Jewish period doctrinally stopped at the crucifixion which opened the way for Gentile salvation. Jews no longer held exclusivity over the true religion from the crucifixion, anything else is doctrinally incorrect. The Jewish period stopped then.   Yet the bible refers to a future 3.5 year Jewish period. The lack of fulfilment of Dan 9:24 points to future period when all this is completed, the second coming being a better fit with the finalisation of the 490 year period as described in verse 24.

Regarding Antiochus being greater, the bible verse does NOT say that this horn was greater than the ram and the goat. Its open to interpretation. I read it as greater than the other 3 horns of the goat. The goat represents Greece  "the rough goat is the king of Grecia" and the 4 horns are the four Greek divisions after Alexander died. The Seleucid Empire was the greatest of these four divisions. It exceeded the other 3. Antiochus was the most expansive , conquering even Egypt. 

⁸ Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

⁹ And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

I am not diminishing the antichrist, he is clearly referred to in Daniel 7, not from the Greek kingdom, but from the Roman kingdom. He is also mentioned in Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:36-45. So there is more about the antichrist than Antiochus in the books of Daniel.