Daniel 8

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, Spock said:

I've read several commentaries and these above posts, and while most believe this vision may have been limited to Alex and the 4 Henerals followed by Antiochus epiphanies doing his thing desecrating the temple.....

i REALLY think it goes wayyyyyy beyond that.  At the very least this is a near-far vision and maybe the near has been fulfilled, but the far is still to come. 

Why don't you see the words several times given- this refers to the END OF TIME!  When is the end of time friends?

when Jesus returns, right?

why are you not seeing this from a contemporary setting?  I'm convinced this chapter goes much deeper.....

come on William!  Don't tell me you think this only goes as far as Antiochus too!!!  Marilyn....come on girl, lay it on me. 

 

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

That is a pictorial representation & you can`t have some things literal & some symbolic. It is all symbolic, otherwise you can just pick & choose what you want for whatever. Now we know that the first 4 world Rulers have ALL been judged & are ALL gone.

eg. `You have been weighed in the balances, & found wanting; ...your kingdom has been divided & given to the Medes & Persians..` (Dan. 5: 27 & 28)

Clearly ALL of those 4 world Rulers, their governments, their power & authority have gone. Thus the symbolic picture of the great image being struck is a pictorial representation of God dealing with the Gentile`s world governments - even though it has happened over time.

History does not repeat itself to the details. That is why Daniel 9 IMHO is history: because it has already been fulfilled to the very details in the First Century A.D.

Likewise, the details about the ram and the he-goat, and the he-goat's four horns, and what took place in "the Glorious land," are a detailed match for what took place in history between the soul/blood-level nations of Persia, Greece, and Judah. (And their angelic princes.) There will be no repeats.

So the only real question open IMHO is whether Daniel 8 is a prophecy BOTH already passed AND still future; or, alternately, already passed PLUS a time prophecy.

That is as purely Spockian as I can make it. (In the pure sense of the word; our Spock takes waaaay too much after his mother's human side, whereas the original Spock was much more Vulcan).

[Spock]

2 hours ago, Sister said:

spock

The last part of the vision concerns the end of time.  The part where the little horn comes up, waxes great and treads the truth to the ground.  That part.  The rest is history for us now, but was future for them then.

Hey Sis,

im not trying to be a hard you know, but I really need for you or anyone to show me where in Daniel 8, did Gabriel say only the last part of the chapter is for "the end of time" and everything else is a good history lesson?. I really need to know why you or anyone is hand picking what you think is near and what you think is far. 

To me, it may be near, but then it must also be far because.....here I go again......it says 2-3 times THIS VISION (I didn't read the words, "part of this vision") is for the end of time. 

Spock being a bulldog

[Marilyn C]

 

Hi Spock,

 

I thought a picture might help us to understand what God is showing.

 

`In the 3^rd year of the reign of King Belshazzar a vision appeared to me – to me, Daniel - ....I saw in the vision, & it so happened that while I was looking, that I was in Shushan, the citadel, which is in the province of Elam; & I saw in the vision that I was by the River Ulai.

Then I lifted my eyes & saw, & there standing beside the river, was a ram which had 2 horns, ...I saw the ram pushing westward, northward, & southward, so that no beast could withstand him; ...suddenly a male goat came from the west,......Then he came to the ram, which I had seen standing beside the river, & ran at him with furious power...`(Dan. 8: 1 – 6)

 

Daniel is in Shushan, in the province of Elam by a river. This is the winter residence of kings of Persia. Here he sees a vision of a very powerful ram (Medes & Persians) which is by a river. Then he sees a goat (Greece) coming swiftly over the ground to meet the Medes & Persians at the river.

 

So...did the first king/leader of Greece conquer the Medes & Persians at a river?

If so, what is the name of that river?

 

I think the river is an important part of this vision, plus the `first king/leader` of Greece. What do you think, bro?

 

Marilyn.

  

 

 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

Hey Sis,

im not trying to be a hard you know, but I really need for you or anyone to show me where in Daniel 8, did Gabriel say only the last part of the chapter is for "the end of time" and everything else is a good history lesson?. I really need to know why you or anyone is hand picking what you think is near and what you think is far. 

To me, it may be near, but then it must also be far because.....here I go again......it says 2-3 times THIS VISION (I didn't read the words, "part of this vision") is for the end of time. 

Spock being a bulldog

Hi Spock,

It is good you are making us all work for our `supper.`   Meaning that we should be able to give details from God`s word. You are right there is no `part of this vision` however let us see exactly what it says -

`the vision refers to the time of the end...` (v. 17)

`Look I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be.` (v. 19)

`And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their fullness, a king shall arise...` (v. 23)

 

So the vision refers to the end, in the latter time of the indignation, & in the latter time of their kingdom. This does however, show that it is over a period of time.

Now if God is going to tell us where this kingdom is does he say the names in B.C or first century or middle ages, or later. There are obviously different names for areas as kingdoms come & go & land is divided up. Even today names are changing in areas (eg ISIL changing Iraq & Syria to the Islamic State.)

 Thus God names the kingdom that has a `far & near` resemblance concerning the leadership - the first king that became powerful & then the last king/leader in the same area that becomes very, very, very powerful.

 

Marilyn.     

 

 

Edited January 26, 2016 by Marilyn C

[Sister]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

Hey Sis,

im not trying to be a hard you know, but I really need for you or anyone to show me where in Daniel 8, did Gabriel say only the last part of the chapter is for "the end of time" and everything else is a good history lesson?. I really need to know why you or anyone is hand picking what you think is near and what you think is far. 

To me, it may be near, but then it must also be far because.....here I go again......it says 2-3 times THIS VISION (I didn't read the words, "part of this vision") is for the end of time. 

Spock being a bulldog

Hi Spock.  I'll be blunt.

The prophecy is future for them in the days of Babylon's rule ok.  What was to come happened all the way up to the kingdom of Greece.  It's history now.

Then after Greece he speaks about a little horn that comes up out one of these 4 kingdoms. 

We wont understand until we read further to receive the explanation. 

What will be revealed is all from the start of the prophecy - the ram, and the goat, who they are. These two kingdoms. After he will explain these, he will explain this little horn, that came up out of one of these kingdoms (of the 4 generals). 

 Daniel 8:19   And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

This he will explain how it ends, he will get to that, this is what he wants us to understand especially, after he explains leading up to it he will reveal who this little horn is.

 

THE EXPLANATION

Daniel 8:20   The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Daniel 8:21   And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king

Daniel 8:22   Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Daniel 8:23   And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

God has just revealed that this little horn doesn't come up until the latter time of their kingdom.  When evil has reached it's peak, grown to the full, ...(when the world has become so wicked that it has to be harvested so that the tares can separate from the wheat) 

Clue no. 1 - This part where the horn comes up doesn't happen until the end.

Clue no. 2 - The little horn, is a king and understands Satans speech.

Clue no. 3 - This king is using someone else's power, not his own and shall destroy wonderfully, even the mighty and the holy people

Daniel 8:24   And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Clue no. 4 - He's going to highly exalt himself and will destroy by preaching peace.  He will even kill the mighty and holy people of God.

Daniel 8:25   And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

They didn't know back then who the Prince of princes was.  But we know from the New testament now.  He will be broken without hand (by the Word of God, he will be destroyed)

Daniel 8:26   And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Shut up what vision? 

in the last end of the indignation:

for at the time appointed the end shall be.

It's appointed for the end.  The last part of the vision concerning the little horn.

 

[Serving]

2 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Spock.  I'll be blunt.

The prophecy is future for them in the days of Babylon's rule ok.  What was to come happened all the way up to the kingdom of Greece.  It's history now.

Then after Greece he speaks about a little horn that comes up out one of these 4 kingdoms. 

We wont understand until we read further to receive the explanation.

What will be revealed is all from the start of the prophecy - the ram, and the goat, who they are. These two kingdoms. After he will explain these, he will explain this little horn, that came up out of one of these kingdoms (of the 4 generals).

 Daniel 8:19   And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

This he will explain how it ends, he will get to that, this is what he wants us to understand especially, after he explains leading up to it he will reveal who this little horn is.

 

THE EXPLANATION

Daniel 8:20   The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Daniel 8:21   And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king

Daniel 8:22   Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Daniel 8:23   And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

God has just revealed that this little horn doesn't come up until the latter time of their kingdom.  When evil has reached it's peak, grown to the full, ...(when the world has become so wicked that it has to be harvested so that the tares can separate from the wheat)

Clue no. 1 - This part where the horn comes up doesn't happen until the end.

Clue no. 2 - The little horn, is a king and understands Satans speech.

Clue no. 3 - This king is using someone else's power, not his own and shall destroy wonderfully, even the mighty and the holy people

Daniel 8:24   And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Clue no. 4 - He's going to highly exalt himself and will destroy by preaching peace.  He will even kill the mighty and holy people of God.

Daniel 8:25   And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

They didn't know back then who the Prince of princes was.  But we know from the New testament now.  He will be broken without hand (by the Word of God, he will be destroyed)

Daniel 8:26   And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Shut up what vision?

in the last end of the indignation:

for at the time appointed the end shall be.

It's appointed for the end.  The last part of the vision concerning the little horn.

 

100% agree .. I see the exact same.

Many overlook that God said of those 4 kingdoms (Alexander's generals) God said, "IN THE LATTER TIME of THEIR KINGDOM" .. meaning .. NOT them BACK THEN and at that time .. but OUT OF ONE OF THEM from FUTURE times & obviously right near the END since that little horn WAGES WAR WITH THE SAINTS and OVERCOMES THEM .. just like the false prophet in rev 13 WAGES WAR against the SAINTS and OVERCOMES THEM too .. and in rev 19 at Christ's 2nd coming it is THAT SAME MAN who WAGES WAR against the saints who is destroyed at the 2nd coming, and HE, that little horn obviously, is called BY GOD "the false prophet" rev 19:20.

Good explanation Sister.

[Spock]

I see got Ruffles some feathers here so I can't wait to read them. Unfortunately I have to go to work and won't be back until 5:00 pm eastern standard time. That is 11 hours from now. So don't think I'm avoiding anyone. 

 

Love and appreciation to all my family here,

spock

[Watching for Jesus]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hey Watching for Jesus,

That`s great. We should have a good discussion on its own thread. I am enjoying this thread too.

BTW where did you learn of the contemporary view of Dan. 7?

Blessings, Marilyn.

Marilyn

I have always held that view, even when I was a teenager just starting to read the Bible.  I didn't read very many commentaries by anyone else, I just read the King James Bible and formed my own opinions.

[Last Daze]

14 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Actually 5 specific kingdoms, as 4 have gone, been judged, & we know one is to come, the final Gentile world Rulership.

How do you support 5 when the prophecy only speaks of 4?

[Spock]

Watching and Sis,

i think I agree with everything you two said. We all see that vision as being near and far and thus the goat and the horn from the goat will be end time players. 

So, I guess you two believe a great person will arise out of that goat (who had 4 horns and 1 horn arose out of them ). 

Am I right in saying this? 

8. but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

9Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people^a and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

Spock.