Daniel 8

[Spock]

I am now beginning a study of Daniel 8.  I believe this chapter unlocks several keys to end times prophecy. I admit right now, my knowledge is shaky because I don't really understand it.......yet.  Heck, even with Gabriel explaining the vision to Daniel, he didn't understand it, so I guess I'm in good company. (V. 27)

I know this vision regards end times, not early times because twice in this chapter it says this vision concerns end times- the time of wrath and the time of the end (V. 17 and 19).

therefore, I know when Daniel says the shaggy goat in v. 21 is the king of Greece, this does not have anything to do with Alexander's Greece, so please don't go there. 

The ram with two horns, it says in v. 20 represents the kingdoms of Media- Persia, but this must mean today's Media- Persia which I know is Iran (Persia) and probably Iraq- Syria (Media).

Anyhow, the shaggy goat from the WEST (Europe I presume) kicks the Rams butt after the ram was kicking butt. The goat seems to have supernatural power  because according to v. 5- he was crossing the whole earth WITHOUT touching the ground. Hmmmm  This shaggy goat starts off with one King ( horn between its eyes) and then 4 horns replaced the one King and were 4 kingdoms.  Anybody have any thought on who the one King is, or who the 4 kingdoms that replaced him?  (Please don't tell me Alexander's 4 generals who replaced him.) 

And then you have a stern faced man, a master of intrigue enter the picture.  I assume he is the antichrist. It sure sounds like him. (V. 23)

Lots of questions, I know.  So who is the shaggy goat?  What does the kingdom of Greece represent?  Who is the First King?  The 4 kingdoms?  Man of intrigue? Any other insight would be deeply appreciated.

thanks,

spock

[WilliamL]

47 minutes ago, Spock said:

therefore, I know when Daniel says the shaggy goat in v. 21 is the king of Greece, this does not have anything to do with Alexander's Greece, so please don't go there. 

Since I can't go there, then I'll just go away. 

[Spock]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Since I can't go there, then I'll just go away. 

Lol. Thanks. 

[Serving]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Since I can't go there, then I'll just go away. 

LOL .. me too.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock.

You know in real estate that `position, position, position` are the 3 most important things. Well, I believe in reading the Bible it is `focus, focus, focus.`  So....I think you are trying to interpret God`s interpretation. You said -

 

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`What does the kingdom of Greece represent?`

That is God`s interpretation of His pictorial representation, (goat, rams etc) You can`t then go & say `well God really meant this & this,` when He has already said what He means. God says what He means & means what He says. (You know the saying.)

Then you said -

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The goat seems to have supernatural power  because according to v. 5- he was crossing the whole earth WITHOUT touching the ground. Hmmm`

 

In a pictorial representation - the goat, ram & their activities - we don`t say some are symbols & then have some as literal. The `crossing ..` etc is symbolic of moving fast.

 

So what is the interpretation -

`The ram which you saw, having the 2 horns -  (now God`s interpretation) - they are the kings of Media & Persia.

And the male goat  - (now God`s interpretation) - is the kingdom of Greece.

The large horn that is between its eyes - (now God`s interpretation) - is the first king.  (Dan. 8: 20 & 21)

 

I`ll leave it there for now, dear bro & hope that helps you to `focus` on exactly, God`s interpretation.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2016 by Marilyn C

[Guest]

Her is how I see it:

Daniel’s Vision of a Ram and a Goat

“In the third year of King Belshazzar’s reign, I, Daniel, had a vision, after the one that had already appeared to me. In my vision I saw myself in the citadel of Susa in the province of Elam; in the vision I was beside the Ulai Canal. I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later. I watched the ram as he charged toward the west and the north and the south. No animal could stand against him, and none could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great.” (Daniel 8:1-4)

The year was 551 BC. It was 16 years before the fall of Babylon to the Medo-Persian coalition. Susa was 230 miles east of Babylon in modern day Iran and would become the capital of the Persian Empire. Both Daniel and Nehemiah lived there, as did Queen Esther. The King of Persia wore a ram’s head crown into battle, so the ram with two horns represents Medo-Persia. The longer horn that grew up later is the Persian component of the coalition that eventually became dominant. (The Angel Gabriel will confirm the identities of both animals for us later in the chapter.) Media was home to the Kurds of today while Persia has become Iran. Together these two conquered an area extending from Pakistan in the East to Greece in the West and to the shores of the Black and Caspian Seas in the North and ruled it for 200 years, until about 330 BC. A Royal Road ran from Susa all the way to Sardis in Western Turkey bringing goods from the Mediterranean to the capital city.

“As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between his eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. He came toward the two-horned ram I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at him in great rage. I saw him attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering his two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against him; the goat knocked him to the ground and trampled on him, and none could rescue the ram from his power. The goat became very great, but at the height of his power his large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.” (Daniel 8:5-8)

The one horned goat was the symbol of Phillip of Macedon, father to Alexander the Great. The Persians had humiliated Phillip, and Alexander built a powerful army to exact revenge. To unite the warring factions of Eastern Europe against the Persians, Alexander invented a new language, called Common Greek, so they could all speak together and settle their real and imagined grievances. Showing the Persians no mercy, he soundly defeated Darius III’s 200, 000 man army at the Battle of Guagamela in 331 BC with only 35,000 troops of his own. He was 22 years old. Seven years later he died in Babylon leaving the empire to be divided among his four generals, Cassander (Macedonia and Greece), Lysimachus (Thrace and Asia Minor), Ptolemy (Israel and Egypt) and Seleucus. (Syria, Lebanon and Jordan)

“Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. It set itself up to be as great as the Prince of the host; it took away the daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low. Because of rebellion, the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground. Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?” He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be re-consecrated.”’ (Daniel 8:9-14)

Now we fast forward to 175 BC and a descendant of Seleucus named Antiochus IV, called another horn here, who gave himself the name Epiphanes, or Divine One. By now the Seleucid Empire had grown substantially and included Israel (the Beautiful Land) taken from descendants of Ptolemy. Antiochus Epiphanes hated the Jews and swore to wipe their religion off the face of the Earth. He almost succeeded.

Arranging to have Israel’s last legitimate High Priest, Onais III, murdered, he began selling the office to the highest bidder, a money-maker that the Romans later adopted as well. He invaded Israel and took control of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. He banned circumcision, the speaking or reading of Hebrew, and possession of the Hebrew Scriptures, burning every copy he could find. He converted the Temple into a pagan worship center, erecting a statue of Zeus (Jupiter) with his own face on it there, requiring the Jews to worship it on pain of death. He slaughtered a pig on the holy altar and ordered the priests to do likewise.

This defilement of the Temple rendered it unfit for use by the Jews. It became known as the Abomination of Desolation and triggered the Maccabean revolt, a successful 3 ½ yearlong guerrilla action led by Judeas Maccabeas (Judah the Hammer) to oust the forces of Antiochus from Israel and restore the Temple for worship. Because of it, Antiochus Epiphanes has become the clearest type of the anti-Christ, with the Maccabean revolt a model of the Great Tribulation. For 1150 days (2300 evening and morning sacrifices) the sanctuary lay desolate until it was consecrated again in a ceremony celebrated today as the Feast of Hanukkah.

The Interpretation of the Vision

“While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man. And I heard a man’s voice from the Ulai calling, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision.” As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.” While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet.
He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.” (Daniel 8:15-22)

The Angel Gabriel now comes to explain to Daniel that he’s going to expand the vision to show that there will be a repeat of these events on a much larger scale at the time of the end. We’ll see that the “Little Horn” of Daniel 7:8 is the end times fulfillment of the one called “Another Horn” in Daniel 8:9, the one we know as Antiochus Epiphanes. He begins with the identification of the Ram and Goat and describes the distribution of Alexander’s Kingdom to his four generals. Then he heads straight for “the time of wrath.” “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise. He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people. He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power." (Daniel 8:23-25)

Remnants of these Empires will endure until the End of the Age when a king like Antiochus will arise, but this one won’t be acting in his own strength. In Rev 13:2 we’re told that the Dragon will give him his power. And unlike Antiochus, who had suffered an embarrassing defeat at the hands of the upstart Romans and was forced to leave Egypt in shame, this king will succeed in everything he does and will be admired by all. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?” (Rev. 13:3-4)

He’ll come on the scene as a peacemaker, but will wind up with most of the world under his authority, even thinking to go to war against the armies of heaven. Like his predecessor, he’ll have an unnatural hatred for the Jews and will attempt to wipe them off the face of the Earth. He too will erect a statue in the Holy Place (Rev. 13:15), calling himself God and demanding worship (2Thes. 2:4). Yet his end will come at the hand of the One who really is the King of the whole Earth.

“The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.” I, Daniel, was exhausted and lay ill for several days. Then I got up and went about the king’s business. I was appalled by the vision; it was beyond understanding." (Daniel 8:26-27)

Gabriel concluded his interpretation of the vision by implying that the 2300 evenings and mornings will surely come, but the vision’s ultimate fulfillment is for the End Times. This has been verified in history. The Temple’s desolation by Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled the prophecy of the evenings and mornings. This distinguishes the Macabbean revolt from the Great Tribulation, where the coming Abomination of Desolation is said to last 1260 days (Rev. 12:6), and shows that for us it’s a historical model of a future event.  Jesus made reference to this when He warned the Jews living in Judea at the end of the age to flee when they see the Abomination of Desolation again (Matt. 24:15-21).
 

[Sister]

13 hours ago, Spock said:

 

 

spock

Read the end of my post first.  You might not want to read all this.

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I know this vision regards end times,

Not at first.

Daniel 8:1   In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

The prophecy was given in the days of Babylon.  God is foretelling the future kingdoms which are coming after the Kingdom of Babylon.

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not early times because twice in this chapter it says this vision concerns end times- the time of wrath and the time of the end (V. 17 and 19).

Yes, but it has to lead up to that.  First things first brother, don't get impatient!  We will never understand it otherwise.

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therefore, I know when Daniel says the shaggy goat in v. 21 is the king of Greece, this does not have anything to do with Alexander's Greece, so please don't go there. 

Go back a bit please.  In verse 3, God is foretelling the next empire - (which comes after Babylon)

 Daniel 8:3   Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

He's showing them (not that they understood), but we can now because it's history, that MEDO-PERSIA The Ram with 2 horns was standing there (ruling).  I'll keep it basic.

Daniel 8:4   I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

The ram was a mighty empire, conquering in every direction, untouchable.

Daniel 8:5   And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

The kingdom of Medo-Persia was conquered by ancient Greece.  It's a fact, it happened, it was real so we can't wipe it out.  Alexander masterminded his attack. He moved in that quick that his feet didn't touch the ground.  He is that notable horn on the goat. 

 Daniel 8:6   And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

Alexander led his army to attack the most powerful empire Medo-Persia, which no one before him had ever dared.  He was fearless.

Daniel 8:7   And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

Alexander charged Medo-Persia with full fury and broke the two combined kingdoms of Medo-Persia. It was a crushing blow.

Daniel 8:8   Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Alexanders kingdom became mighty as he gained more territory.  ....But when he was at his strongest, he died.  He had no children, so his kingdom was divided between his 4 generals. 

Cassander, Ptolemy, Leisimachus and Seleucus.  They went North, South, East and West.

Daniel 8:9   And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

"out of" one of these generals whose kingdom grew and exists in the end times, a little horn comes out.  He's a little horn, because he starts of small but grows to power.  This is the False Prophet.

Daniel 8:10   And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

This little horn grew great and starts to stamp on the truth.  see verse 12 for the explanation.

  Daniel 8:11   Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

He even magnifies himself against our Lord Jesus Christ.

  Daniel 8:12   And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
He must be claiming to have created every thing God created.  Even the stars and all that's in the universe.  He's stamping on the truth, taking credit for God's work.

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The ram with two horns, it says in v. 20 represents the kingdoms of Media- Persia, but this must mean today's Media- Persia which I know is Iran (Persia) and probably Iraq- Syria (Media).

 

Wrong! Your going offtrack.  v20 is giving the interpretation of the ram and the goat.  Which kingdoms they are.

 Daniel 8:22   Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
 Daniel 8:23  And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Now he's speaking of the latter time of their kingdom.  In the last days.

Don't zone in on one kingdom now, all the kingdoms (nations) are serving the King of Babylon (Satan)  All the kings in the last days are contaminated and are ruling in unrighteousness.  The False Prophet will appear during these days.

 

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Anybody have any thought on who the one King is, or who the 4 kingdoms that replaced him?  (Please don't tell me Alexander's 4 generals who replaced him.) 

Sorry, I see what you are getting at now.  I'm NOT DELETING all I wrote now lol.

Cassander ruled in the West - Greece

Ptolemy went South, Egypt,

Leisimachus went North

Seleucus went East - Syria, Israel, Iraq etc.

You can check this out, I could be wrong.  The notes in my bible are old and faded, and I can barely read them.  I can't be bothered using google after writing all this!

It doesn't matter anyway.  All the nations of the world serve the King of Babylon.  All the kings of the earth give their allegiance to the False Prophet.  If you want to know exactly what kingdom the false prophet comes out of, it's the NORTH.  The false prophet is called "The King of the North".  Don't think way North Russia, think north Europe.  God called the King of the North back then in Daniel Rome.  So it's around this area.  Europe.

 

[Watching for Jesus]

Spock

 

As I see it, Daniel 8:9-14 and 8:23-25 are verses that are talking about the time of the end.

 

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

 

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 

As for verses 3-8 and 20-22, I won't go there.

[Spock]

I've read several commentaries and these above posts, and while most believe this vision may have been limited to Alex and the 4 Henerals followed by Antiochus epiphanies doing his thing desecrating the temple.....

i REALLY think it goes wayyyyyy beyond that.  At the very least this is a near-far vision and maybe the near has been fulfilled, but the far is still to come. 

Why don't you see the words several times given- this refers to the END OF TIME!  When is the end of time friends?

when Jesus returns, right?

why are you not seeing this from a contemporary setting?  I'm convinced this chapter goes much deeper.....

come on William!  Don't tell me you think this only goes as far as Antiochus too!!!  Marilyn....come on girl, lay it on me. 

[Spock]

3 hours ago, Watching for Jesus said:

Spock

 

As I see it, Daniel 8:9-14 and 8:23-25 are verses that are talking about the time of the end.

 

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

 

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 

As for verses 3-8 and 20-22, I won't go there.

Yes, yes, yes.  Now who are the players involved today?

who is the King of Greece? First king, which was replaced by the 4?  Keep going....