Spock Posted January 25, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 25, 2016 I'm not trying to be recalcitrant, but would someone please explain what verses 17 and 19 mean? 15While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man. 16And I heard a man’s voice from the Ulai calling, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision.” 17As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,”b he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.” 18While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet. 19He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.c 20The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted January 25, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 25, 2016 31 minutes ago, Marilyn C said: Hi Spock, Now you amaze me bro. Here you are wanting all of this passage (Dan. 8) to be contemporary yet you miss where God clearly gives us the contemporary super powers, (ch. 7) I will visit them again soon. Remember when I first came on this forum, 2 years ago & we chatted about that. Maybe soon it will be time to revisit that as there are newies on here. OK, back to ch. 8. `And in the latter time of their kingdom....` (v. 23) Only this part is contemporary. Then as God has told us who the goat is - `the kingdom of Greece..` I can`t go beyond what God tells me. Thus you need to address why you can`t believe God here. This chapter is about the area that the final Global leader arises, & then in ch. 11 we get more detail as to what part of that area, - the north. So find out the area & then find out the north part. Marilyn. Woooooooh there Marilyn, when did I ever say I did not agree with you that Daniel 7 is all contemporary? In fact, as I recall, I thanked you for turning me on to that interpretation and subsequently AGREED with it. I just now am considering chapter 8 as also being contemporary and I'm actually surprised to don't see a near- far scenario in play here, especially considering Gabriel said twice to Daniel- this concerns the end of time. Isn't that pretty conclusive? When did Alex the great and Antiochus become the end of time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted January 26, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,194 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,494 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Spock said: Woooooooh there Marilyn, when did I ever say I did not agree with you that Daniel 7 is all contemporary? In fact, as I recall, I thanked you for turning me on to that interpretation and subsequently AGREED with it. I just now am considering chapter 8 as also being contemporary and I'm actually surprised to don't see a near- far scenario in play here, especially considering Gabriel said twice to Daniel- this concerns the end of time. Isn't that pretty conclusive? When did Alex the great and Antiochus become the end of time? Hi Spock, Sorry that I came over wrongly. And I`m glad you are seeing ch. 7 as contemporary. Now I`m glad you brought up Dan. 8: 17 & 18, as I was just about to refer to that also. OK. God is showing Daniel (Israel) (this section 8 - 12 is in Hebrew) from where the person who desecrates the sanctuary (v. 13) comes from. God always shows the origin as it were of powers. No good saying `How long is a piece of string?` if you know what I mean. There has to be some background. Thus when it is said ` that the vision refers to the time of the end.` (v. 17) then that is what is meant, `refers to,` not that it is ALL set in the end; for we read `and in the latter time of their kingdom...` (v. 23) Thus we need to understand that God is showing the background of the kingdom, & that it is from that area, region that this despicable person arises. Marilyn. Edited January 26, 2016 by Marilyn C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watching for Jesus Posted January 26, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 155 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 133 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Marilyn C said: Hi Spock, Now you amaze me bro. Here you are wanting all of this passage (Dan. 8) to be contemporary yet you miss where God clearly gives us the contemporary super powers, (ch. 7) I will visit them again soon. Remember when I first came on this forum, 2 years ago & we chatted about that. Maybe soon it will be time to revisit that as there are newies on here. OK, back to ch. 8. `And in the latter time of their kingdom....` (v. 23) Only this part is contemporary. Then as God has told us who the goat is - `the kingdom of Greece..` I can`t go beyond what God tells me. Thus you need to address why you can`t believe God here. This chapter is about the area that the final Global leader arises, & then in ch. 11 we get more detail as to what part of that area, - the north. So find out the area & then find out the north part. Marilyn. Marilyn By contemporary, do you mean that you believe the lion in Daniel 7 is Great Britain and the bear is Russia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted January 26, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Marilyn C said: Hi Last Daze, That is a pictorial representation & you can`t have some things literal & some symbolic. It is all symbolic, otherwise you can just pick & choose what you want for whatever. Now we know that the first 4 world Rulers have ALL been judged & are ALL gone. eg. `You have been weighed in the balances, & found wanting; ...your kingdom has been divided & given to the Medes & Persians..` (Dan. 5: 27 & 28) Clearly ALL of those 4 world Rulers, their governments, their power & authority have gone. Thus the symbolic picture of the great image being struck is a pictorial representation of God dealing with the Gentile`s world governments - even though it has happened over time. Marilyn. That's not what the passage says and I'm not just picking and choosing what I want for whatever. It never identifies the statue as representing the sum of all Gentile world governments. It identifies four specific kingdoms. Don't think literal / symbolic. Think natural / supernatural. Do you think those kingdoms just sprang up on their own? Who do you think their "princes" that are described in Daniel 10 are? While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18 Don't let "out of sight" be "out of mind". Sure, the material aspect of those kingdoms was temporal. That's where you need to look beyond the seen, temporal to the unseen, eternal. The supernatural aspect of those kingdoms is eternal. Then he said, “Do you understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold, the prince of Greece is about to come. Daniel 10:20 You can't just ignore whatever you want for whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted January 26, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,194 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,494 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted January 26, 2016 12 minutes ago, Watching for Jesus said: Marilyn By contemporary, do you mean that you believe the lion in Daniel 7 is Great Britain and the bear is Russia? Hi Watching for Jesus, You`ll please excuse my wrong attitude there to Spock. Fingers wrote before heart could hear. As to Dan. 7, (without derailing this thread) yes I believe the Lion represents Great Britain, the Eagle (wings broken off) USA, the Bear, the Soviets -> Russia etc. There is much detail in Ch. 7 which I believe clearly shows that they are Super Powers & not World rulers. Perhaps need to start a thread on this soon. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted January 26, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 26, 2016 spock The last part of the vision concerns the end of time. The part where the little horn comes up, waxes great and treads the truth to the ground. That part. The rest is history for us now, but was future for them then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watching for Jesus Posted January 26, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 155 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 133 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 26, 2016 6 minutes ago, Marilyn C said: Hi Watching for Jesus, You`ll please excuse my wrong attitude there to Spock. Fingers wrote before heart could hear. As to Dan. 7, (without derailing this thread) yes I believe the Lion represents Great Britain, the Eagle (wings broken off) USA, the Bear, the Soviets -> Russia etc. There is much detail in Ch. 7 which I believe clearly shows that they are Super Powers & not World rulers. Perhaps need to start a thread on this soon. Marilyn. I agree with this Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted January 26, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,194 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,494 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted January 26, 2016 3 minutes ago, Last Daze said: That's not what the passage says and I'm not just picking and choosing what I want for whatever. It never identifies the statue as representing the sum of all Gentile world governments. It identifies four specific kingdoms. Don't think literal / symbolic. Think natural / supernatural. Do you think those kingdoms just sprang up on their own? Who do you think their "princes" that are described in Daniel 10 are? While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18 Don't let "out of sight" be "out of mind". Sure, the material aspect of those kingdoms was temporal. That's where you need to look beyond the seen, temporal to the unseen, eternal. The supernatural aspect of those kingdoms is eternal. Then he said, “Do you understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold, the prince of Greece is about to come. Daniel 10:20 You can't just ignore whatever you want for whatever. Hi Last Daze, Actually 5 specific kingdoms, as 4 have gone, been judged, & we know one is to come, the final Gentile world Rulership. BTW I meant World Rulers when I said Gentile governments. Sorry for the confusion there bro. Now I agree with you concerning those spirit powers behind the World Rulers. In Dan. 7: 2 we are shown this specifically. `Daniel spoke saying, "I saw in my vision by night, & behold, the 4 winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea.` (Dan. 7: 2) `the four winds` winds - Heb. word, `ruwach` is spirit, wind. Thus we can see that there were 4 spirit powers stirring up the Great Sea. They go forth to operate in the realm of the predominant ruling powers of the world. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted January 26, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,194 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,494 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Watching for Jesus said: I agree with this Marilyn. Hey Watching for Jesus, That`s great. We should have a good discussion on its own thread. I am enjoying this thread too. BTW where did you learn of the contemporary view of Dan. 7? Blessings, Marilyn. Edited January 26, 2016 by Marilyn C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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