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The Mark and the Image


Last Daze

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On 12/6/2016 at 4:46 PM, Last Daze said:

In summary, receiving the mark and worshiping the image is not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit so it is forgivable if repented of.

Did you even read what God said about taking this mark? I will assist you: it is in Rev. 14.

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On 2/4/2016 at 8:07 AM, Last Daze said:

I agree with your perception of the image.  It's the only thing that makes sense to me.  Whether those people acknowledge that they create it or not, they create it, probably as a part of the process of when people are lining up to receiving the mark.  Their continued obedience to the image is mandatory.

The question I have is whether God's judgment as demonstrated by the first four trumpets can cause people to realize the error of their decision to take the mark and repent.  I realize that those who take the mark and worship the image are the objects of the plagues.  I also realize that at some point people's hearts harden to the point of no repentance but that doesn't occur until some point well into the plagues.  If someone heeds God's judgment and discontinues worshipping the image, can they be forgiven and cease being the object of God's wrath?  The overwhelming consensus is "no repentance - damn them all to hell".  That seems to be more of an emotional response to me.  I haven't yet seen anything scriptural that precludes repentance during the first four trumpets.  Maybe I've missed something.

I suppose God could allow for the repentance of those who take the mark under a different set of circumstances than those that will occur at the end of the age during the 70th week. For instance, if God allowed the mark and the image to take the earth by surprise then I would say a righteous God would indeed make a way out because, as you say, and I know it true, God does not wish that any perish but that all should repent. He did this for us through Christ Jesus and the covering of sin. This proves the goodness of God. Sin was not our fault, we were born into sin through the blood by the actions of one ancestor, and the righteousness and love of God and Jesus gave us the path of salvation. 

But since that situation does not exist in this case, and a specific set of events according to a strict timeline is planned by God, there will be no excuse left for those who take the mark.

For instance, the beast makes the covenant for peace at the beginning of the week. This would demand that the beast has power and credibility to secure peace between the Jews and 'many'. But no mark or image at this time. This power and credibility is born of the resurrection of the beast after the deadly head wound. The world will see a powerful spiritual man who has gained immortality and the covenant for peace can be hammered out between the Jews and the 'many'. Remember, this has to occur at the beginning of the week, 3.5 years before the A of D. This is an important time period that most of us do not engage. When one considers the first half of the week and events that must occur we see the beast gains power from the beginning and is then revealed at the A of D for who he really is. The mark and the image are the scourge of the 2nd half for Jews and Christians. 

But the Jews cannot see clearly and discern the true nature of this person with whom they have just contracted to guarantee the peace; they are blinded by their need for security and the reestablishment of their national identity through a standing Temple. As an aside, have you ever wondered what the peace is all about? It doesn't seem critical over there right now does it? Sure the Jews and Arabs are at odds but that has been the case since before Jews came to the promised land. The one thing that would change the dynamic between Jews and Arabs is the occupation of the Temple mount by the Jews and the rebuilding of the Temple. The Temple can never be rebuilt under the current situation as millions of Muslims would descend on Jerusalem and destroy everything to stop Jewish occupation and the Temple construction. The beast will come to power at the beginning of the week and be the buffer between Jews and Arabs, and Muslims, so the Temple can be rebuilt.

During the first half of the week, as the Temple is constructed amidst the wars of Daniel 11 between the beast and certain Muslim groups that oppose the rebuilding of the Temple, the beast is going to be exposed to the Jewish people for who he truly is by the two witnesses. These two will prophecy about the nature and acts of the beast that will ensue after the A of D. Obviously then the Jews will know the  mark and the image are coming and the consequences of acceptance and worship. I would imagine then the angel that warns of the mark and the image would be flying through the heavens telling all the inhabitants of the earth of the dire, permanent, consequences of the mark. Under the above, and likely, order of events the whole world will be warned about what's coming, and those accepting the mark and worshiping the beast or his image will have no excuse and no path to repentance. 

 

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On 2/7/2017 at 9:45 PM, iamlamad said:

Readers, RUN! It is more nonsense. Follow the Bible! NOTHING from Revelation after the 5th seal has every happened yet on earth. It is FUTURE. Anyone trying to compare events still future to past events will fail. Future is future.

While I share your concern, nothing in Rev, that is clearly prophecy, from Ch. 4 verse 1 onward, has occurred.

But yeah, don't listen to that person...

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2 hours ago, Diaste said:

While I share your concern, nothing in Rev, that is clearly prophecy, from Ch. 4 verse 1 onward, has occurred.

But yeah, don't listen to that person...

Wrong: you are missing the context of the first seals. This context is chapters 4 & 5. If you don't understand these two chapters, your timing will be off on the seals. Go back and read those chapters. They give TIMING. For example, WHEN did Jesus ascend and send the Holy Spirit down? That time will be the time of the first seals. As soon as Jesus ascended, He took the book from the Father's hand and began breaking or opening seals. No one can find 2000 years between any of those verses because it is simply not there, nor is it intended to be there by the Author. The first seal is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL to make disciples of every nation in the world. WHEN did the church begin?

Or, you might just ask yourself, WHEN was John called up to heaven? That event was certainly NOT future!

Always remember, a vision or any part of a vision can be past, present or future. Just because God said He called John up to show Him future things, does not mean EVERY thing God showed him would be future. In fact, some of the vision was indeed past tense for John.

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5 hours ago, Diaste said:

While I share your concern, nothing in Rev, that is clearly prophecy, from Ch. 4 verse 1 onward, has occurred.

But yeah, don't listen to that person...

revelation chapter 12 verse one and two will happen on September 23 &24 of this year.  It will be in the sky, and it has not been since before the time of the Garden of Eden and will not again for at least more than 7,000 years....    totally unique.

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20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Wrong: you are missing the context of the first seals. This context is chapters 4 & 5. If you don't understand these two chapters, your timing will be off on the seals. Go back and read those chapters. They give TIMING. For example, WHEN did Jesus ascend and send the Holy Spirit down? That time will be the time of the first seals. As soon as Jesus ascended, He took the book from the Father's hand and began breaking or opening seals. No one can find 2000 years between any of those verses because it is simply not there, nor is it intended to be there by the Author. The first seal is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL to make disciples of every nation in the world. WHEN did the church begin?

Or, you might just ask yourself, WHEN was John called up to heaven? That event was certainly NOT future!

Always remember, a vision or any part of a vision can be past, present or future. Just because God said He called John up to show Him future things, does not mean EVERY thing God showed him would be future. In fact, some of the vision was indeed past tense for John.

Well, that's an interesting rationalization. There is no timing. If the last week was to be a week of years, 7 years, then your idea of timing is way off if it's to be understood the seals are within the 70th week.  

So you are saying that the first 4 seals have happened since the time of Jesus? What biblical proof do you have for this idea? 

Where in the bible does it tell us that Jesus began opening seals the moment he ascended?  I have read a lot of prophecy over a great many years and have not seen either of these ideas. So perhaps you could post the scripture proving that Jesus ascended, immediately took the scroll from the Father and began opening the seals in the first century. In fact there is a big problem here. Jesus ascended many years before John was given the prophecy. In Rev 5:5 a worthy person was found to open the scroll and loose the seals. In Rev 4:1 Jesus was to show those things which came hereafter John was taken to heaven. Since Jesus had been ascended for some 60 years before the vision he could not have been opening seals. If the seals were already opened, even one, then the prophecy would be false as it was given. This cannot be true so your conclusion is rejected.

Where is the biblical proof of the rider of the white horse in the first seal representing the church? In fact this idea is a guess, a hope, wishful thinking. This is all there is about the rider of the white horse: Rev 6:2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer." I have read the church is likened to a bride but never a rider on a white horse with a bow and a crown. Do you have any biblical evidence that the 1st seal is the church?
 

I said, "...nothing in Rev, that is clearly prophecy, from Ch. 4 verse 1 onward, has occurred."  I picked Ch 4 because the vision begins there. I'm not saying that all of Rev is prophecy but what prophecy there is is all future from 90 AD when John received the vision. A vision may or may not reside in all the tenses but that has nothing to do with the Revelation of Jesus Christ. All the prophecy in Rev is future after this verse; "... Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." So what you are saying is God is a liar because God really meant, "I'm going to show you what MUST BE hereafter, but not really cause I'm going to mix and match tenses. It's how I roll."

If these things must be  hereafter, where is another tense in prophetic verses? The must be hereafter because God decreed it, and they must be hereafter because they come in the future. 

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18 hours ago, other one said:

revelation chapter 12 verse one and two will happen on September 23 &24 of this year.  It will be in the sky, and it has not been since before the time of the Garden of Eden and will not again for at least more than 7,000 years....    totally unique.

I know I'm going to get reprimanded if I say it...trying not to...struggling for composure...no strength... can't fight it.....

That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. There...I said it.

Rev 12:1-2 is nothing more than a identifier. Rev 12:1-5 clearly identifies the two principles and sets the context so there is no mistake. It's a quick overview of 2000 years of struggle. It shows the birthplace of the Messiah. It shows the great animosity between Satan and the people of God, it shows the rebellion of the angels, the ascendance of Christ. But it  does not liken this sign to a freakin planetary alignment, in an astrological sign no less. As if God is going to share the glory with man made constellations.

This is what is wrong with the christian church. itching ears. Lusting after a sign. An evil generation seeks after a sign, and the christian church leads the way in this. You all need to repent of this kind of garbage before the beast arrives to test the people of God. 

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33 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I know I'm going to get reprimanded if I say it...trying not to...struggling for composure...no strength... can't fight it.....

That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. There...I said it.

Rev 12:1-2 is nothing more than a identifier. Rev 12:1-5 clearly identifies the two principles and sets the context so there is no mistake. It's a quick overview of 2000 years of struggle. It shows the birthplace of the Messiah. It shows the great animosity between Satan and the people of God, it shows the rebellion of the angels, the ascendance of Christ. But it  does not liken this sign to a freakin planetary alignment, in an astrological sign no less. As if God is going to share the glory with man made constellations.

This is what is wrong with the christian church. itching ears. Lusting after a sign. An evil generation seeks after a sign, and the christian church leads the way in this. You all need to repent of this kind of garbage before the beast arrives to test the people of God. 

Fortunately for you, we can all express our opinions here.

Unfortunately for you, that doesn't necessarily mean that thought is right.   So, we wait till the end of this year and see what happens.. BTW Genesis tells us that the stars are there for signs.....I guess we can wait till December or so and finish our discussion. 

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7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well, that's an interesting rationalization. There is no timing. If the last week was to be a week of years, 7 years, then your idea of timing is way off if it's to be understood the seals are within the 70th week.  

So you are saying that the first 4 seals have happened since the time of Jesus? What biblical proof do you have for this idea? 

Where in the bible does it tell us that Jesus began opening seals the moment he ascended?  I have read a lot of prophecy over a great many years and have not seen either of these ideas. So perhaps you could post the scripture proving that Jesus ascended, immediately took the scroll from the Father and began opening the seals in the first century. In fact there is a big problem here. Jesus ascended many years before John was given the prophecy. In Rev 5:5 a worthy person was found to open the scroll and loose the seals. In Rev 4:1 Jesus was to show those things which came hereafter John was taken to heaven. Since Jesus had been ascended for some 60 years before the vision he could not have been opening seals. If the seals were already opened, even one, then the prophecy would be false as it was given. This cannot be true so your conclusion is rejected.

Where is the biblical proof of the rider of the white horse in the first seal representing the church? In fact this idea is a guess, a hope, wishful thinking. This is all there is about the rider of the white horse: Rev 6:2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer." I have read the church is likened to a bride but never a rider on a white horse with a bow and a crown. Do you have any biblical evidence that the 1st seal is the church?
 

I said, "...nothing in Rev, that is clearly prophecy, from Ch. 4 verse 1 onward, has occurred."  I picked Ch 4 because the vision begins there. I'm not saying that all of Rev is prophecy but what prophecy there is is all future from 90 AD when John received the vision. A vision may or may not reside in all the tenses but that has nothing to do with the Revelation of Jesus Christ. All the prophecy in Rev is future after this verse; "... Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." So what you are saying is God is a liar because God really meant, "I'm going to show you what MUST BE hereafter, but not really cause I'm going to mix and match tenses. It's how I roll."

If these things must be  hereafter, where is another tense in prophetic verses? The must be hereafter because God decreed it, and they must be hereafter because they come in the future. 

I believe preconceived glasses are in your way. Where do I get this? Try reading Rev. 5 without preconceptions!  What is written? John turned and saw a lamb having been slain. That lamb was not there before. The lamb is of course Jesus Christ, and He was not there before, not in chapter 4 and not until this verse in chapter 5. In other words, He JUST ARRIVED in heaven. What did He tell Mary?

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
 
This is telling us, as soon as Mary left, Jesus ascended.  Later Jesus told Thomas to touch him, so we see He had already ascended. John got to see His arrival in heaven, in a vision of the past.
 
You think, NO WAY because of he word "hereafter."
 
Rev. 4:1 ... and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
 
Well, DID Jesus show John things which "must be hereafter?" Of course He did! These words would not preclude Jesus from mixing some HISTORY in with future events.  many people think they read "ONLY things hereafter." Sorry, but only is not in that verse. In fact, most people recognize that when Satan was cast out of heaven and took 1/3 of the angels with him, that is history written in Rev. 12.  Most people do not yet recognize Rev. 4 & 5 as history.  When they arrive in heaven, they will know.
 
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Here Jesus is telling John to write things past, present AND future. And John does exactly that.

The very purpose and intent of chapters 4 & 5 is to present the history of the book with 7 seals, so in chapter 6 people will know about this book.

By the way, I did not get this by rationalization: I got it by meditating on the Word and praying in the spirit, waiting on God to teach me. I know, these days it is not a common way to learn. Most people will not take the time necessary and are unwilling to wait on God to answer.

If the last week was to be a week of years, 7 years, then your idea of timing is way off if it's to be understood the seals are within the 70th week.  

That is the very point of chapters 4 & 5: to show us the first seals are NOT IN the 70th week. Most people do not understand that God MARKED the 70th week with 7's.  Consider the 5th seal: they are church age martyrs. NOT 70th week or Day of the Lord martyrs. If they were 70th week martyrs, they would KNOW they had only to wait for the rest of the 7 years. But since they are church age martyrs, they have no idea how long the church age would last. So they asked.

Where in the bible does it tell us that Jesus began opening seals the moment he ascended?

Just READ! You cannot find 2ooo years anywhere between when Jesus suddenly appeared (as the lamb slain) and chapter 6:1. What we do read is that as soon as Jesus arrived in heaven, He went straight to the Father and got the book and began breaking the seals. There is NO HINT of a wait. Not until the 5th seal do we see a time of waiting. And we have been waiting between the 5th and 6h all this time, waiting on the rapture and the 6th seal to begin the DAY of the Lord.

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On 2/25/2017 at 11:41 AM, other one said:

revelation chapter 12 verse one and two will happen on September 23 &24 of this year.  It will be in the sky, and it has not been since before the time of the Garden of Eden and will not again for at least more than 7,000 years....    totally unique.

I know this is a rumor going around. Have you personally checked this out on software planetarium program? 12:1-2 is about Christ's birth, and what Virgo appeared like back then.  What is coming Sept. 23 is not the same. It is a rumor.

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