If no rapture

[rollinTHUNDER]

4 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

 

It is more than just a term.  It is a system of belief concerning the 2nd coming of Christ.

There is no secret coming of Christ which is the rapture teaching.

The resurrection is at the 2nd coming.

The catching up is at the 2nd coming.  

These are two parts of the same event.

 

The event is The Second Coming of Christ.

 

 

 

 

The gathering of the elect is the catching up, not the second coming to the earth.  It says nothing about returning to earth at that time in Matt. 24.  You are adding that into His words.

Those days will be shortened for the sake of the elect, otherwise no flesh will be saved (Matt. 24:21-22).  If the living saints aren't caught up, they will all be killed by the beast (Rev. 13:7-8), because they must not take the mark of the beast.

Those who are ready will go to the wedding supper (Luke 12:35-48), and those believers who are not ready will receive punishment (pay close attention to verses 46, 47 & 48).  Here's what happens to those who are not ready (Rev. 20:4).

[thereselittleflower]

Just now, rollinTHUNDER said:

The gathering of the elect is the catching up, not the second coming to the earth.  It says nothing about returning to earth at that time in Matt. 24.  You are adding that into His words.

Those days will be shortened for the sake of the elect, otherwise no flesh will be saved (Matt. 24:21-22).  If the living saints aren't caught up, they will all be killed by the beast (Rev. 13:7-8), because they must not take the mark of the beast.

Those who are ready will go to the wedding supper (Luke 12:35-48), and those believers who are not ready will receive punishment (pay close attention to verses 46, 47 & 48).  Here's what happens to those who are not ready (Rev. 20:4).

The "air" is part of the earth.  It is the atmopshere of this planet and part of the entire earth.

Jesus' second coming is in the clouds.

•  

• Matthew 24:30
  "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

 

• Mark 13:26
  "At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

 

• Luke 21:27
  At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
   
• Acts 1    9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.

 

• Revelation 1:7
  "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.

• 1 Thessalonians 4:17
  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

• Hebrews 9:28

  so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

 

Jesus' second coming is in the clouds, in the air.   The catching up and the resurrection happen at the 2nd Coming of Jesus.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[angels4u]

8 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

The "air" is part of the earth.  It is the atmopshere of this planet and part of the entire earth.

Jesus' second coming is in the clouds.

•  

• Matthew 24:30
  "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

 

• Mark 13:26
  "At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

 

• Luke 21:27
  At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
   
• Acts 1    9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.

 

• Revelation 1:7
  "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.

• 1 Thessalonians 4:17
  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

• Hebrews 9:28

  so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

 

Jesus' second coming is in the clouds, in the air.   The catching up and the resurrection happen at the 2nd Coming of Jesus.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

h 4:17 (NKJV)

Amen --and this is still to come--maybe soon? 

[thereselittleflower]

 

 

2 minutes ago, angels4u said:

 

Amen --and this is still to come--maybe soon? 

 

Amen

 

[angels4u]

Just now, thereselittleflower said:

Amen

 

Amen --Come Lord Jesus come!

[Omegaman 3.0]

simpleJeff said:

No problem at all until they were twisted to mean a rapture after a woman's dream in 1832.

My comment is that Magaret Macdonalds 'vision'  (in 1830)is often said to be the source of the pre-trib rapture theory. Typically this is alleged to be an etatic utterance by a 16 year old Scottish lass, in an effort to discredit the pre-trib rapture theory.

I remember when pre-trib rapturists said so such person existed, it is a made up story. Later, to vision was discovered in an old book found in a used book store. 

The post-tribbers were vindicated, she was a real person and the content of her vision, had been put to paper.

Post-tribbers still tell the story, and pre-tribbers don't deny MMs existence any longer. 

It is known that Irving and Darby were aware of Miss MM, however, there is a problem. If you actually read here vision, it does not seem to have a pre-trib rapture, at least, I don't detect it when I read it.

you can read it if you like at:

http://omegazine.com/eschatology/MMvision.pdf

Now, Darby, on the other hand, does basicially seem to be the origin of the modern idea of the pre-trib rapture and dispensationalism, but that is another story.

Teditis said:

"I sit on the fence in regard to the "rapture"... but none of those verses expressly state a rapture

per se, but tell me that we will all be gathered at the end when Christ returns."

I reply, well, actually Teditis, The 1 Thess 4:17 verse says:

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 Will be caught up together: literally, snatched up, carried off, from the Latin verb here used, rapiemur, has come the idea of the rapture.

So indeed, the rapture, per se, is directly spoken to, it just mean the alive Christian will be caught up together to join those who have already died, to meet the Lord in the air.

What that verse does not say, is WHEN it will happen other than to say that it happens after the dead in Christ rise first.

[rollinTHUNDER]

1 hour ago, thereselittleflower said:

The "air" is part of the earth.  It is the atmopshere of this planet and part of the entire earth.

Jesus' second coming is in the clouds.

•  

• Matthew 24:30
  "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

 

• Mark 13:26
  "At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

 

• Luke 21:27
  At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
   
• Acts 1    9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.

 

• Revelation 1:7
  "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.

• 1 Thessalonians 4:17
  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

• Hebrews 9:28

  so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

 

Jesus' second coming is in the clouds, in the air.   The catching up and the resurrection happen at the 2nd Coming of Jesus.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, all of these verses are talking about the same coming.  He is coming in the clouds, which is exactly where the dead rise, and the living will gather with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.  Nothing says they are coming down then.  However, if you keep reading in Matthew 24, and continue thru chap. 25, then you will see where He returns in Matt. 25:31-46, when He returns to judge the nations (sheep & goats).  This is the second coming and the end of the age.

Don't you just love how everyone stops in Matt. 24, and ignore the rest of His answer in chap. 25?

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

11 minutes ago, rollinTHUNDER said:

Don't you just love how everyone stops in Matt. 24, and ignore the rest of His answer in chap. 25?

Oh, they often don't ignore Matt 25, instead, there pretend that the subject has changed, as though Matt 24 and 25 are not the same monologue.

[thereselittleflower]

59 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

simpleJeff said:

No problem at all until they were twisted to mean a rapture after a woman's dream in 1832.

My comment is that Magaret Macdonalds 'vision'  (in 1830)is often said to be the source of the pre-trib rapture theory. Typically this is alleged to be an etatic utterance by a 16 year old Scottish lass, in an effort to discredit the pre-trib rapture theory.

I remember when pre-trib rapturists said so such person existed, it is a made up story. Later, to vision was discovered in an old book found in a used book store. 

The post-tribbers were vindicated, she was a real person and the content of her vision, had been put to paper.

Post-tribbers still tell the story, and pre-tribbers don't deny MMs existence any longer. 

It is known that Irving and Darby were aware of Miss MM, however, there is a problem. If you actually read here vision, it does not seem to have a pre-trib rapture, at least, I don't detect it when I read it.

you can read it if you like at:

http://omegazine.com/eschatology/MMvision.pdf

Now, Darby, on the other hand, does basicially seem to be the origin of the modern idea of the pre-trib rapture and dispensationalism, but that is another story.

Teditis said:

"I sit on the fence in regard to the "rapture"... but none of those verses expressly state a rapture

per se, but tell me that we will all be gathered at the end when Christ returns."

I reply, well, actually Teditis, The 1 Thess 4:17 verse says:

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 Will be caught up together: literally, snatched up, carried off, from the Latin verb here used, rapiemur, has come the idea of the rapture.

So indeed, the rapture, per se, is directly spoken to, it just mean the alive Christian will be caught up together to join those who have already died, to meet the Lord in the air.

What that verse does not say, is WHEN it will happen other than to say that it happens after the dead in Christ rise first.

 

.

Her vision - in which a secret return or sign of Christ in the sky occurs and with it, those who are alive in Christ "will be caught up to meet him in the air":

Margaret McDonald's Vision:

• ... It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just 'no God.'

  I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear. Now look out for the sign of the Son of Man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is.

  I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory.

  I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people.

  Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, 'Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.'

  'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye.

  Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air.

  I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then [note: no imminency teaching here!] shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold.

  I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must he, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom.

  I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be.

  I felt as Elijah, surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven.

  The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets (1861). pp 15-18   Robert Norton.

 

I don't know what else you call this.  This is, indeed, the ratpure doctrine -  a secret coming of Christ in relationship to the rest of the world, which only true believers will see, and in which they will be caught up into the air with him  - the rapture.

 

The scriptures however say something very different 

• Matthew 24:30
  "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

   

  Mark 13:26
  "At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

   

  Luke 21:27
  At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
   

  Acts 1    9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the skywhile He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.

   

  Revelation 1:7
  "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.

  1 Thessalonians 4:17
  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

   

  Hebrews 9:28

  so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

 

Jesus' second coming is in the clouds, in the air where ALL eyes shall see him.   The catching up and the resurrection happen at the 2nd Coming of Jesus.

But this is not what Margaret MacDonald claims will happen at the sign of the Son of Man.     But what Margaret MacDonald says will happen is what those who claim the rapture doctrine say will happen -  Christ's appearance at the event of the catching up will be hidden from the world - it will be a secret coming.

Very strange if this did not originate with Margaret MacDonald, whom Darby personally had met and conversed with, how it is that Darby's "rapture" looks exactly like this vision claims?

 

 

The passage which 1 Thess 4:17 is in says exactly when the "catching up" will happen -  when Christ returns and after the resurrection of the dead.

• 1 Thess 4:15

  For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[simplejeff]

Notice first what I don't say.  

I didn't say what the woman's dream was.

I never read or saw her ecstatic utterance, dream or vision.  Who knows - it might even be 'real' ?!

43 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

simpleJeff said:

No problem at all until they were twisted to mean a rapture after a woman's dream in 1832.

.

It is known that Irving and Darby were aware of Miss MM, however, there is a problem. If you actually read here vision, it does not seem to have a pre-trib rapture, at least, I don't detect it when I read it..

If it was real, it couldn't have been about a pre-trib rapture; but whatever it was, 

SHE ((probably)) didn't say that it did.. Reportedly, A (('her' ?)) PASTOR DID - he took it and ran to the bank with it, as did multitudes of others after he did, right up to TODAY.