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If no rapture


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29 minutes ago, rollinTHUNDER said:

Yes, all of these verses are talking about the same coming.  He is coming in the clouds, which is exactly where the dead rise, and the living will gather with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.  Nothing says they are coming down then.  However, if you keep reading in Matthew 24, and continue thru chap. 25, then you will see where He returns in Matt. 25:31-46, when He returns to judge the nations (sheep & goats).  This is the second coming and the end of the age.

Don't you just love how everyone stops in Matt. 24, and ignore the rest of His answer in chap. 25?

 

 

So you are saying there is more than one second coming of Christ!

One a coming in the clouds

and the another at the end of the age!

 

There are not 2 more comings of Christ.

There is only ONE more coming of Christ.   It is called the 2nd Coming.     Everything  - the resurrection, the catching up, the judgment - ALL happen at the 2nd Coming.

 

There is no secret coming between now and the 2nd Coming at end of the age.  

 

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

 

So you are saying there is more than one second coming of Christ!

One a coming in the clouds

and the another at the end of the age!

 

There are not 2 more comings of Christ.

There is only ONE more coming of Christ.   It is called the 2nd Coming.     Everything  - the resurrection, the catching up, the judgment - ALL happen at the 2nd Coming.

 

There is no secret coming between now and the 2nd Coming at end of the age.  

 

 

 

 

Yes there are two comings.  The first is usually referred to as His appearing, also known as the sign of the Son of man.  It will not be a secret as every eye will see Him, and this is when He will gather His elect (Matt. 24:29-31).  This is also when the judgment of the house of God begins for believers (1 Peter 4:17-18). 

The second coming is after the wedding supper, when He returns with His saints to judge the nations (Matt. 25:31-46).

And this passage shows both, His appearing and His coming to reign in His kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:1 - In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom,
I give you this charge:

 

 

Cheers

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10 minutes ago, rollinTHUNDER said:

Yes there are two comings.  The first is usually referred to as His appearing, also known as the sign of the Son of man.  It will not be a secret as every eye will see Him, and this is when He will gather His elect (Matt. 24:29-31).  This is also when the judgment of the house of God begins for believers (1 Peter 4:17-18). 

The second coming is after the wedding supper, when He returns with His saints to judge the nations (Matt. 25:31-46).

And this passage shows both, His appearing and His coming to reign in His kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:1 - In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom,
I give you this charge:

 

 

Cheers

 

No, there are not two comings.  There is one.    Jesus' 2nd Coming.

Taking this verse in 2 Timothy to claim a teaching that never existed before Darby, that is less than 200 years old compared to the 2000 old christian faith,  isn't going to cut the mustard.

 

 

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59 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

 

.

Her vision - in which a secret return or sign of Christ in the sky occurs and with it, those who are alive in Christ "will be caught up to meet him in the air":

Margaret McDonald's Vision:

  • ... It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just 'no God.'

    I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear. Now look out for the sign of the Son of Man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is.

    I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory.

    I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people.

    Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, 'Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.'

    'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye.

    Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air.

    I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then [note: no imminency teaching here!] shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold.

    I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must he, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom.

    I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be.

    I felt as Elijah, surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven.

    The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets (1861). pp 15-18   Robert Norton.

 

I don't know what else you call this.  This is, indeed, the ratpure doctrine -  a secret coming of Christ in relationship to the rest of the world, which only true believers will see, and in which they will be caught up into the air with him  - the rapture.

 

The scriptures however say something very different 

  • Matthew 24:30
    "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

     

    Mark 13:26
    "At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

     

    Luke 21:27
    At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
     

    Acts 1    9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the skywhile He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.

     

    Revelation 1:7
    "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17
    After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

     

    Hebrews 9:28

    so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

 

Jesus' second coming is in the clouds, in the air where ALL eyes shall see him.   The catching up and the resurrection happen at the 2nd Coming of Jesus.

But this is not what Margaret MacDonald claims will happen at the sign of the Son of Man.     But what Margaret MacDonald says will happen is what those who claim the rapture doctrine say will happen -  Christ's appearance at the event of the catching up will be hidden from the world - it will be a secret coming.

Very strange if this did not originate with Margaret MacDonald, whom Darby personally had met and conversed with, how it is that Darby's "rapture" looks exactly like this vision claims?

 

 

The passage which 1 Thess 4:17 is in says exactly when the "catching up" will happen -  when Christ returns and after the resurrection of the dead.

  • 1 Thess 4:15

    For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you are referring to the McDonald, girl.  I would agree that's just a myth.  Many pre-tribulation rapture scholars use that, but it will be the first theory to be proven wrong.  Yes, they believe in a secret rapture, but I do not.  They also believe they won't be here for the final seven years, and I don't buy that either.

 

 

Cheers

 

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3 minutes ago, rollinTHUNDER said:

If you are referring to the McDonald, girl.  I would agree that's just a myth.  Many pre-tribulation rapture scholars use that, but it will be the first theory to be proven wrong.  Yes, they believe in a secret rapture, but I do not.  They also believe they won't be here for the final seven years, and I don't buy that either.

 

 

Cheers

 

Then explain exactly what you see transpiring between the "catching up" and the judgment, and why you see these as 2 comings rather than one event.   For Jesus makes it one and the same:

  • Matthew 24:30
    "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

 

The "appearing" and "coming" of Christ are one and the same.   The word "and" which appears in this verse is "kai" which connects the statements together making them about the same subject, the same event.

 

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4 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

 

No, there are not two comings.  There is one.    Jesus' 2nd Coming.

Taking this verse in 2 Timothy to claim a teaching that never existed before Darby, that is less than 200 years old compared to the 2000 old christian faith,  isn't going to cut the mustard.

 

 

 

 

 

I'll show you another way in Matthew:

Matthew 24:31 = rapture = Judgment of house of God (1 Pet. 4:17-18)
Matthew 25:31 = second coming = judgment of the nations (Math. 25:31-46)

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9 minutes ago, rollinTHUNDER said:

I'll show you another way in Matthew:

Matthew 24:31 = rapture = Judgment of house of God (1 Pet. 4:17-18)
Matthew 25:31 = second coming = judgment of the nations (Math. 25:31-46)

That is what you claim, but that does not match the words of Christ I quoted.

 

Again:

  • Matthew 24:30
    "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

The "appearing" and "coming" of Christ are one and the same.   The word "and" which appears in this verse is "kai" which connects the statements together making them about the same subject, the same event.

 

ADDITONALLY   the word  " THEN"   in  

  • "And then all the peoples of the earth will morn when they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds"  

makes it even more clear these things are all concurrent  with each other - they are not separated events:

"Then" translates:

  • τότε tóte, tot'-eh; from (the neuter of) G3588 and G3753; the when, i.e. at the time that (of the past or future, also in consecution):—that time, then.
  • then

  • at that time

 

So at the time of appearing, at that time all the people of the earth see Jesus coming in the clouds.

 

Your arguments are now based on semantics without understanding the underlying Greek, and that these words and phrases are simply being used synonymously -  'The sign of the Son of Man in heaven' is the same event as 'the Son of Man coming on the clouds'.

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

Then explain exactly what you see transpiring between the "catching up" and the judgment, and why you see these as 2 comings rather than one event.   For Jesus makes it one and the same:

  • Matthew 24:30
    "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

 

The "appearing" and "coming" of Christ are one and the same.   The word "and" which appears in this verse is "kai" which connects the statements together making them about the same subject, the same event.

 

You're using a poor translation.  It should say the tribes of the earth will mourn, not all people of the earth.  The reason is because the sign of the Son of man will signal the end of the times of the Gentiles (rapture).  The tribes here, is referring to the remnant Jews, and the other tribes that are still scattered among the nations.  They will then mourn for the one they have pierced, and they will lift up their heads and know that their redemption draws near, for He will save them.

Matthew 24:30 - And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

But the second coming will be a time of wrath, no mourning here.  And this will be at least two weeks later, judging from the phases of the moon.  There was no moon in Matthew 24, but this moon in Rev. 6 is a blood moon, which is a full lunar eclipse.  The difference is that a new moon sheds no light, but a full moon always comes two weeks later. 

Revelation 6:12-17 - And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

If you still can't tell the difference, you just can't see it yet.  Hopefully one day you will.

 

 

Cheers. 

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1 hour ago, thereselittleflower said:

I don't know what else you call this.  This is, indeed, the ratpure doctrine -  a secret coming of Christ in relationship to the rest of the world, which only true believers will see, and in which they will be caught up into the air with him  - the rapture.

Well therese, what I said that I did not see in her vision is a PRE-TRIB rapture. I see the invisble aspect, but she herself said that sign that is seen, is Jesus Himself. She also said:

" I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus"

When is that, where is the language in the Bible" Matt 24, when Jesus returns after the tribulation, where did MM assert that it was pre-trib?

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6 hours ago, Teditis said:

I sit on the fence in regard to the "rapture"... but none of those verses expressly state a rapture

How did you miss the Resurrection/Rapture in these verses, when it is plain as day? The phrase "caught up together" is the Greek harpagesometha = Latin Rapiemur = English Rapture

 RESURRECTION

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

RAPTURE

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

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