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Connection between heaven and the temple


mevosper

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15 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Do we really need a text to tell us when and how the Ark was taken up to Heaven?

If we understand that God brought judgement upon Judah for their sins, and a part of that judgement was the destruction of the Temple, then it follows that God would not allow the Ark to be desecrated, and it was taken up to Heaven unannounced. If you recall that a man (Uzzah) died for unlawfully touching the Ark, it follows that God would not allow the Ark to be desecrated by the Babylonians.

It looks like today Christians only believe something if it is stated explicitly. But there is a great deal of implicit teaching in the Bible. Thus we have Rev 11:19: And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

Yes, we need texts to say it was "taken from earth to heaven" or texts to that effect.

It is natural to conclude from this text in Rev 11 alone, that the earthly ark was taken there, if we did not know what others in the Bible wrote about this connection.

Right from the beginning Moses was to make the sanctuary and it furnishings "according to the pattern" shown him on the mount, which pattern Paul explains is a replica of the one in heaven. God has not allowed the ark or its contents to be desecrated, and I think it is possible that they will be found. So I guess the future holds the key to that one.

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On 2/15/2016 at 10:14 AM, mevosper said:

I wanted to share a viewpoint I have just recently started to consider. While listening to 2 Peter 3:10, another idea came to mind about what maybe meant by “the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements melt with fervent heat…”. At first look, this seems to be talking about the heavens we see above our heads. I had the expectation that with some sort of loud noise, maybe even a violent disruption, the heavens would disappear. I had even thought this disappearing and the elements melting with fervent heat maybe due to a nuclear explosion.

 

So my thought process started like this.

 

Imagine being given the key to the entire library of God’s knowledge. All the wisdom that God used to create the heavens and the earth is within your grasp. You have access to his thoughts and ideas for how things need to be. You are entitled to learn everything there is about what God has to offer. This library is the source for unbound knowledge. Deeper than the oceans, and higher than the stars. Every question answered. Every answered question. You can absorb and learn as much as you desire. The magnitude of this library in human terms is this: It is humanly impossible to be ever without a moment of learning in this library.

 

Where is heaven?

What I see is more about where heaven is rather than how many there are. For the sake of argument, the key is: heaven is where God dwells. Israel, through Moses, was given this exact key. With this key, they were in the presence of the Creator himself and had access to His library. He made his abode with them (Ex 29:43-46).

 

[Exo 29:45 KJV]

And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.

 

From here, the path leads me to a connection between heaven, Israel, and the temple. Isaiah 66 and Exodus 25 further this connection. Isaiah 66 declares heaven is God’s throne.

 

[Isa 66:1 KJV] Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

 

Exodus 25 says God will meet with the children of Israel from his throne, or heaven. As with any, the throne is where the king holds court, passes judgment, issues decrees, and talks with the people, and in this case, atones for sin. Exodus gives instruction from the Creator about how to build his throne, and what it was to be used for.  

 

[Exo 25:21, 22 KJV] And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. [22] And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

( as a side note: John 20:11, 12 show an interesting “fulfillment” between those Exodus verses and Christ’s sepulcher. )

 

The verses in Exodus and Isaiah lead me to believe that heaven, God’s thrones, is actually in the Holy of Holies of the temple, if not the entire temple itself. This is significant. What makes this so significant? This is the part that may raise some questions.

 

[2Pe 3:10 KJV]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


The children of Israel, and specifically the priests, scribes, and Pharisees, had direct access to the God of the universe, the Creator of all. When this access was given to everyone (including the Gentiles) this, to me seems like a VERY traumatic event. It could be the end of an age. This event would be the end of a way of life for the past 1200+ years.

What are your thoughts on these connections?

Continuing the connection between heaven and the temple, Peter shares an interesting statement regarding judgment:

[1Pe 4:17 KJV]
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Understanding that God does not live in houses/temples made of hands, it seems fitting that there eventually would be an end to the physical "house of God" and to the things talked about in Hebrews 9

[Heb 9:8-10 KJV]
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [10] Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.


 

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On 2/21/2016 at 8:16 PM, Sister said:

Mevosper

I had to read your post quite a few times to see what your point was?  No one was answering.  You ended it with this;

 

I gave you my thoughts.  The above verse will be the end of an age, ...the end of the First Dominion.  I wouldn't call it a traumatic evet, but a glorious one. 

Sorry if my answer does not concern this post, because I thought it did.

Sister - it is so easy to get side-tracked or to "tangent" away from the original post. There are other posts, I'm sure though I haven't looked, regarding the "day of the Lord". 

I believe you are correct, here though. I believe what Peter is describing in 1 Peter 3:10 is the end of an age. And for the devout Jew at that time, possibly the end of the world. For those that chose not to follow Christ but continued in the Law of Moses, how will they perform the daily sacrifices and such? They cannot. They can no longer follow the law without a proper temple. I think sometimes this point gets easily missed or dismissed. 

 

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On February 15, 2016 at 10:14 AM, mevosper said:

I wanted to share a viewpoint I have just recently started to consider. While listening to 2 Peter 3:10, another idea came to mind about what maybe meant by “the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements melt with fervent heat…”. At first look, this seems to be talking about the heavens we see above our heads. I had the expectation that with some sort of loud noise, maybe even a violent disruption, the heavens would disappear. I had even thought this disappearing and the elements melting with fervent heat maybe due to a nuclear explosion.

 

So my thought process started like this.

 

Imagine being given the key to the entire library of God’s knowledge. All the wisdom that God used to create the heavens and the earth is within your grasp. You have access to his thoughts and ideas for how things need to be. You are entitled to learn everything there is about what God has to offer. This library is the source for unbound knowledge. Deeper than the oceans, and higher than the stars. Every question answered. Every answered question. You can absorb and learn as much as you desire. The magnitude of this library in human terms is this: It is humanly impossible to be ever without a moment of learning in this library.

 

Where is heaven?

What I see is more about where heaven is rather than how many there are. For the sake of argument, the key is: heaven is where God dwells. Israel, through Moses, was given this exact key. With this key, they were in the presence of the Creator himself and had access to His library. He made his abode with them (Ex 29:43-46).

 

[Exo 29:45 KJV]

And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.

 

From here, the path leads me to a connection between heaven, Israel, and the temple. Isaiah 66 and Exodus 25 further this connection. Isaiah 66 declares heaven is God’s throne.

 

[Isa 66:1 KJV] Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

 

Exodus 25 says God will meet with the children of Israel from his throne, or heaven. As with any, the throne is where the king holds court, passes judgment, issues decrees, and talks with the people, and in this case, atones for sin. Exodus gives instruction from the Creator about how to build his throne, and what it was to be used for.  

 

[Exo 25:21, 22 KJV] And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. [22] And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

( as a side note: John 20:11, 12 show an interesting “fulfillment” between those Exodus verses and Christ’s sepulcher. )

 

The verses in Exodus and Isaiah lead me to believe that heaven, God’s thrones, is actually in the Holy of Holies of the temple, if not the entire temple itself. This is significant. What makes this so significant? This is the part that may raise some questions.

 

[2Pe 3:10 KJV]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


The children of Israel, and specifically the priests, scribes, and Pharisees, had direct access to the God of the universe, the Creator of all. When this access was given to everyone (including the Gentiles) this, to me seems like a VERY traumatic event. It could be the end of an age. This event would be the end of a way of life for the past 1200+ years.

What are your thoughts on these connections?

Shalom, mevosper.

You were right the first time.

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10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, mevosper.

You were right the first time.

First time being the clouds and atmosphere being evaporated by a nuclear explosion?

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On February 25, 2016 at 10:14 AM, mevosper said:

First time being the clouds and atmosphere being evaporated by a nuclear explosion?

Shabbat shalom, mevosper.

Yes, sort of. Whether it will be "by a nuclear explosion" or something else, like our God, who is "A CONSUMING FIRE," it is the atmosphere that will be destroyed in the Fire. God will remake it for the New Earth. That's what a "New Heaven" is, a New Sky or a New Atmosphere.

Look, when you investigate 2 Peter 3:3-13, concentrating on the occurrences of "heavens" and "earth," you will notice that Peter says there was an "earth" and "heavens" before the Flood of Noah's day and an "earth" and "heavens" that were different after the Flood, both affected BY the Flood. The only "heavens" that the Flood touched were the earth's atmosphere.

(UNLESS you somehow believe, as at least one on this forum does, that the waters were galaxies away that fell to this earth! I don't. I believe that the earth is pretty much a closed system, thanks in large part to the Van Allen Belts of heat and radiation. Those Belts save our necks a thousand times more than we realize by shielding us from the sun's harmful radiation and helping to pulverize the debris that enters our upper atmosphere.)

So, I believe in a canopy theory - a "canopy" of GASEOUS water VAPOR that one COULD see through because that water vapor was no more "dense" (concentrated) than nitrogen vapor. It is only when water CONDENSES - becomes LIQUID water - on dust particles in the atmosphere, that they become a mist that we call "clouds," that can become so thick that one cannot see through them.

The bottom line for this discussion is that the first "heavens" and "earth" in Peter's epistle were the earth and its atmosphere before the Flood and the second "heavens" and "earth" were the earth and its atmosphere after the Flood. Therefore, it is only logical to project that the third "heavens" and "earth," mentioned in verse 13, will also be this earth and its atmosphere after the Fire.

Therefore, the Fire that is coming, mentioned in verse 7 and described in verses 10-12, will be a Fire that is focused on the surface of THIS planet, not the entire Universe nor on any place called "Heaven" beyond. If you believe in "Heaven," then this should come as a comfort to you! "Heaven" will NOT be destroyed! The "new heavens" after the Fire in which Righteousness will dwell and the "new heaven" that John describes after the GWTJ in Revelation 21:1-2 are about our renewed earth's atmosphere, not about "Heaven."

So, is it...

^ 3rd Heaven
 | 2nd heaven
 | 1st heaven?
distance from earth

or is it...

1st heaven --> 2nd heaven --> 3rd heaven?
---------------------------------------> time in human history

I believe that Peter is saying it's the latter.

 

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6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yes, sort of. Whether it will be "by a nuclear explosion" or something else, like our God, who is "A CONSUMING FIRE," it is the atmosphere that will be destroyed in the Fire. God will remake it for the New Earth. That's what a "New Heaven" is, a New Sky or a New Atmosphere.

Retro

Thanks for your response. There was a point in time in which I thought this. What else could melt the elements of the periodic table? And is that what is meant by "elements"?

I don't believe this any longer. In 2 Pet 3:7, the focus changes to the heavens and the earth which are now. This is not restricted to the heaven (atmosphere) and the earth (the ground beneath our feet). Even in verse 6, Peter says "the world that then was" meaning not the earth that is today. Here's how I see 2 Peter 3:7:

[2Pe 3:7 KJV] But the heavens and the earth (Holy of Holies, temple, Jerusalem(?) [purpose of post]), which are now (they are currently standing), by the same word (the word that cause the earth to be flooded) are kept in store (have not been destroyed, yet no longer necessary since the work of Christ), reserved unto fire (God's judgment) against the day of judgment (the day that God put a period, and end, to the old covenant/ways) and perdition (destruction, 2nd death) of ungodly men (those that know the truth of God, but yet have turned away [Heb 6:4-8]).

 

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Look, when you investigate 2 Peter 3:3-13, concentrating on the occurrences of "heavens" and "earth," you will notice that Peter says there was an "earth" and "heavens" before the Flood of Noah's day and an "earth" and "heavens" that were different after the Flood, both affected BY the Flood. The only "heavens" that the Flood touched were the earth's atmosphere.

I don't that there is talk of both being affected by the flood. I see the heavens "were of old". 

[2Pe 3:5-6 KJV]
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: [6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

I also see the old world, being overflowed with water died. Maybe a representation of the world being baptized and then becoming anew, maybe. So only the world was affected by the flood.

 

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The bottom line for this discussion is that the first "heavens" and "earth" in Peter's epistle were the earth and its atmosphere before the Flood and the second "heavens" and "earth" were the earth and its atmosphere after the Flood. Therefore, it is only logical to project that the third "heavens" and "earth," mentioned in verse 13, will also be this earth and its atmosphere after the Fire.

I don't feel this is a solid connection. It doesn't seem logical to me that the whole entire atmosphere is going to be burned off. I believe the earth will continue revolving around the sun, and the moon around the earth. I believe, at least in my life time that the four seasons that I see yearly will continue until my death, and probably well into the future afterwards (I won't be able do much about it afterwards even if I could care).

 

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Therefore, the Fire that is coming, mentioned in verse 7 and described in verses 10-12, will be a Fire that is focused on the surface of THIS planet, not the entire Universe nor on any place called "Heaven" beyond. If you believe in "Heaven," then this should come as a comfort to you! "Heaven" will NOT be destroyed! The "new heavens" after the Fire in which Righteousness will dwell and the "new heaven" that John describes after the GWTJ in Revelation 21:1-2 are about our renewed earth's atmosphere, not about "Heaven."

Well, fire is definitely God's judgment. There have been times in which God uses one nation as the executioner for another in his judgment. Did you happen to catch 1 Peter 4:17 I posted above: 

[1Pe 4:17 KJV]
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I don't think Peter could have put this any more plainly.

Heaven is within us. The apostles have confirmed this as our bodies are the tabernacle of the Holy Ghost. We are the new heaven and new earth. Adam was made from earth, our flesh and blood bodies are the new earth.

[2Co 5:17 KJV]
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

[Rev 21:1,5 KJV]
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
[5]
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

When first started thinking about this, I thought it was a bunch of malarkey. It wasn't until I was able to "wrap my head around" that idea that we are the temple of God. I took this idea back to the old testament and compared it with the physical tabernacle/temple. And really it wasn't something I "wrapped around". It was something the Spirit developed within me. 

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