Who is The 7th Kingdom Beast (and 8th) of Rev?

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

You have to exhibit the most off kilter exegesis I have seen. 

The truth is the truth, it doesn't nothing else really matters to me. 

Revelation 1 2 and 3 are about the Churches of Asia Minor.

The Rapture is the beginning of Daniels 70th Week. That starts in Revelation chapter 4. COME UP HERE.....

Rev. 4 and 5 Describe the Fathers Glory and Jesus as the Worthy Lamb, the Church is in Heaven Marrying the Lamb at this point and the First part of Rev. 19 would be going on at this exact same time. 

Rev. 6 is the Mid-way point of the Daniels 70th Week or of Jacobs trouble. The Anti-Christ starts turning on Israel and starts conquering foes. Rev. 17 is happening at this point because Islam and all Religions (The Harlot) are being destroyed at this point. Rev. 18 starts as soon as the Last Seal is opened so it is not happening quite yet. Rev. 11 is happening at this point also, the Two-Witnesses are prophesying and bringing forth plagues or about to bring forth plagues, they have already turned Israel back to God and the Messiah Jesus. Israel has already fled unto the wilderness by this point in time also so parts of Rev. 12 are happening here also. Rev. 13 is happening by now also, the Beast has risen out of the Sea. 

Rev. 7 is the Anointing of the 144,000 and after that John in Heaven watching the Marriage of the Lamb and the Church which is happening at this point in Heaven, Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Then an elder tells John these are they which came out of the Great Tribulation. The great tribulation is the troubles of the world, the trials all of man-kind go through in their lives, we all face this challenge in life, we are tested just like Jesus was tempted. We have made it to Heaven. But we are not in Jacobs Trouble, because that was designed to get Israel to Repent, not the Church who is at this point in Heaven, Marrying the Lamb. Those under the Alter in Seal #6 were told to wait until their fellow servants were killed also, so they are not in Heaven yet, they yet sleep. 

Rev. 8, the Seventh Seal Sounds, the plagues of God are brought forth via the Seven Trumps, the Two-Witnesses in Rev. 11 are praying them down upon a wicked earth (Babylon) and the Prayers of the Saints are cast down on earth, mingled with fire. Rev. 18 starts happening at this exact point, Babylon is Fallen is fallen. Babylon is hit by he plagues of God and her commerce is destroyed, her grasses and trees are burned up, many peoples die, an asteroid hits, the waters turn to blood, sea creatures die, many shops are destroyed, the waters are poisoned, the sun, moon and stars are darkened, no doubt because of the smoke, and Angel announces there are Three Woes left !!! 

Rev. 9 ushers in two of the final three Woes. Rev. 18 is still happening at this very time. Woe #1 is Apollyon being released from the bottomless pit along with a horde of Demons that torture men, Rev. 18 says the Earth has become a habitation of Devils !! Now comes Woe #2, four Angels are released, they have an Army of 200 Million Horsemen, they have the same Breastplates as the High Priests of Israel, they kill men on earth who it says STILL WILL NOT REPENT !! That tells us what ? This is a Plague of God, this is not an Human Army of 200 Million Horsemen. The Euphrates River is dried up in Rev. 16, during the Sixth Vial, not here at the Sixth Trumpet in Rev. 9 !! The Kings of the East have nothing to do with THIS ARMY of Horsemen.  Rev. 14 is happening at this exact time, the 144,000 are preaching repent, repent and another angel is saying Babylon has fallen, fallen. Another Angel says if any man worships the Beast or his Image, or takes the Mark of the Beast will receive the WRATH OF GOD !! Revelation chapter 18 is the Judgment of Babylon ( the Last Beast System or conglomerate Government that comes against Israel, to subdue and Destroy her ). It is still going on as Rev. 9 is going on.  

Rev. 10 is John eating a book because God doesn't want him to Reveal everything he heard about this event, this seems to be a one event vision, however, it seems the Angel swore that when the Seventh Angel sounded, time should be no more (as we know it).

Rev. 11, as I stated, much of that is happening as Rev. 6 is happening, but also as Rev. 8 and Rev. 9 are happening also. The Two Woes are Past, now comes the Third Woe just after the Two-Witnesses are killed, come back to life and have ascended unto Heaven. And the 3rd Woe sounded, and this ushers in the Seven Vials of Gods wrath. The Kingdoms of this Earth have become the Kingdoms of the Lord and the Nations (Babylon) were angry because His Wrath (Gods Wrath) had come. Rev. 15 and Rev. 16 are the results of the Seven Vials of Gods Wrath to come.

Rev. 12 is the Story of Israel (Women) Baby Jesus, The Dragon etc. etc. It shows who birthed Jesus, how Satan tied to kill him, how he ascended to Heaven and sat at the Right Hand of God. Then Israel fled into the Wilderness for 1260 Days, to be protected by God so this part happens as Rev. 6 is happening no doubt. Then Satan comes after the Christians this is no doubt the Martyrs under the Alter in the 5th Seal who were Beheaded for Jesus' name. 

Rev. 13 is the story of the rise of the Anti-Christ and his False Prophet, this happens at the very beginning of Daniels 70th Week no doubt. He turns on Israel and all False and True Religions at the Mid-way point, he will then kill all who refuse to worship him as GOD both rich and poor, great and small. His number is 666.

Rev. 14 Jesus then [anoints/Seals them on their foreheads] the 144,000 personally, on Mount Zion. He then sends them forth to preach the Gospel unto all mankind. They go forth and preach the Gospel to men as Babylon is Falling, yet they seem to repent not most of the times, but yet, no one can say they have not heard the Gospel, this will be the Judgment against them, they heard but rejected the good news of Jesus Christs Salvation via the Blood !! They wanted no part. Rev. 9 is happening at the same time...

Rev. 15. is about the Seven Last Plagues that the final Seven Vials are going to bring forth. 

Rev. 16 is the Seven Vials of Gods Wrath being poured out upon Babylon the Great !! This is what Rev. 18 is all about, Rev. 18 is just a more detailed version of Babylon Falling while Rev. 16 is describing the Plagues which are the Third and final Woe !! In the very first Vial grievous sores fall upon men with the Mark of the Beast upon them, then in the 2nd Vial, the Seas became as dead men's blood and all the sea creatures died. In the 3rd Vial all the drinking waters turn to blood. The 4th Vial is poured out and the sun scorches men and they blasphemed God, yet repented not !! In the 5th Vial, we see that the Seat of the Beast (Babylon) became as Dark, and men gnawed at their tongues for pain but yet Repented not. The 6th Vial is now poured out, and the Euphrates River is dried up preparing the way for the Kings of the East ( NOT !!! Preparing the way for a 200 million Horsemen Army ) to do battle in Armageddon no doubt, because there are Three Evil Spirits sent out from the Anti-Christ, Dragon and the False Prophet to entice the Kings unto battle, they no doubt want to destroy Israel/Jerusalem once and for all. Then the Seventh and Final Vial is pored out and there is a voice from Heaven saying It is done.... then there is a Great Earthquake such as has never been seen before, and Jerusalem is divided into Three Parts as Jesus put foot upon Mount Zion. Then of course theCITIES of the NATIONS (Babylon) fell: and Great Babylon came into REMEMBRANCE UNTO GOD !!  To give unto her the cup of the wine of His fierce Wrath !!  Of Course this is what is Happening to Babylon in Rev. chapter 18. IT IS DONE, there is no more Kingdoms of men, Jesus Christ hast taken over, as soon as he defeats the Anti-Christ and his Kings/Satan in Rev. 19. There is in essence no Rev. 17 or Rev. chapter 18, they are just an enhanced telling of the Fall of Babylons Two Sides, the Religious Harlot and the Governmental Beast System. Rev. 17:16 The Kings HATE the Harlot and burn her and destroy her (False Religion Judged) Rev. 18:2 Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen, she has become the habitation of devils !! (False Government Side Judged).  Commerce destroyed, plagues brought forth etc. etc. 

Rev. Chapter 19, this chapter starts in Rev. 4 and is ongoing in Rev, 5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16. Then our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ comes back with us Saints, the Church, who he has Married in Rev. 19, and He defeats Satan (bound in the pit for 1000 years) the Anti-Christ and False Prophet whom he judges and throws into Hell (Rev. 20:10) and all the Kings and Armies of Satan and the Anti-Christ with the Sword of his Mouth (Holy Spirit) and Without Hands (Holy Spirit). Amen, Glory to God. 

 

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Nor does it address the clear description of Baghdadi by Bin'ali as being the 8th, and of the 7. The beast is not Islamic because...? You say so? You just don't like that? It doesn't fit a preconception?

No, because the 7th king has not come to power, yet, according to the crowns in Revelation 12.     And futhermore, at the time of John when the sixth king was ruling - Islam was still 600 years into the future.    So it doesn't matter if someone thinks that only 7 former muslim leaders were legitimate caliph's.    None of them were around when the sixth king was ruling.

[Revelation Man]

3 minutes ago, douggg said:

No, because the 7th king has not come to power, yet, according to the crowns in Revelation 12.     And futhermore, at the time of John when the sixth king was ruling - Islam was still 600 years into the future.    So it doesn't matter if someone thinks that only 7 former muslim leaders were legitimate caliph's.    None of them were around when the sixth king was ruling.

Islam has nothing to do with anything. This is such bad thinking. Satan is using this angle to deceive. It has no merit and is illogical. 

[douggg]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Islam has nothing to do with anything. This is such bad thinking. Satan is using this angle to deceive. It has no merit and is illogical. 

Well, Islam is not a factor when the 70th week starts.   But Islam is a factor leading into the 70th week, in Gog/Magog.

And as soon as a person disconnects that the Christ in biblical framework is the promised great King of Israel, Son of David, the messiah - then they lose sight that the Anti-christ has to occupy that role for a short time.        And once a person loses sight of that, a person cannot understand that the confirming of the covenant (the Mt. Sinai covenant, the covenant relative to Israel and the animals daily sacrifice) is also in a biblical framework.  

 So people come up with Mahdi, peace treaty, the Assyrian, gentile, king of the North,  Seleucid kingdom, etc. 

 

 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, douggg said:

No, because the 7th king has not come to power, yet, according to the crowns in Revelation 12.     And futhermore, at the time of John when the sixth king was ruling - Islam was still 600 years into the future.    So it doesn't matter if someone thinks that only 7 former muslim leaders were legitimate caliph's.    None of them were around when the sixth king was ruling.

Not the point. I'm saying Rev 17:11 tells us the beast must be the 8th and of the 7. Meaning that whatever or whoever the beast is, he must be like the first 7, or descend from the 7, etc. There is no way to discern who this might be based solely on Rev 17:11. However, if there is a person who fits such a description it has to be considered seriously.

The 'one is' from Rev 17:10 has always been misinterpreted. How is it that a sentence fragments meaning can be spread across 6000+ years? I say it cannot. Neither can this sentence fragment from Rev 17:10 be related to the Dan 2 statue as there is no parallel. 

A critical look at Rev 17:10 shows real trouble with the popular interpretation.

10 And there are seven kings: This seems to say the 7 kings exist at the time of the writing. Notice the verb 'are'. This would not be the past as many contend but seems to be present. Otherwise why would the verb tense not be past as in, 'were'? Not only is this based on the verb tense but also the idea that Jesus said, Rev 4:1, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." So none of these prophecies concern any past event from the time of John, whether in 70 AD or 90 AD. It's also a huge mistake in comprehension to place all 7 kings in existence when the narrative is going forward to indicate that 5 are past. In other words, How can Jesus say all 7 exist when he knows full well that 5 are already past? Further, in the same sentence, Jesus is going to say the 7th has not 'yet come' when he clearly states all 7 kings 'are'. A future understanding reconciles all this. 

five are fallen, Again a present tense and not past. This doesn't make much sense.  If 5 have fallen it must be past, correct? Not really. The word here again is 'are', not 'were' or 'have' which are both past tense. If these 7 kings were yet future then the present tense verb fits. Jesus is saying that 7 kings will exist at some point future from the writing, therefore they 'are' . Jesus is telling us this group will exist at some point and 5 will be 'fallen'. None of this is past as the present verbs indicate. 

and one is, Here's the real sticking point. "One is" must be present as we understand 'is'. True, but 'are' and 'is' are both present tense. So the literal meaning indicates the 7 who 'are', the five who 'are fallen', and the one who 'is' all exist at the same moment based on the usage of the present tense verbs. This shows only a future fulfillment is possible as it cannot be that these kings as a group, or an individual, both exist and do not exist at the same time.

and the other is not yet come; There is always confusion here as well. If 7 kings 'are' how can one 'not yet come'? Based on the above Jesus is speaking about a prophecy of 7 kings in the future. Not only did Jesus say 'hereafter' in Rev 4:1, showing that the 7 kings are yet future, the 7 kings already 'are'. The only understanding here must that of a future moment where a group of 7 kings exist where 5 have run their course and the 'one is' indicates the coming of the short lived 7th, leading to the 8th king, the beast.

What I find incomprehensible is the lack of insight of some when parsing this fragment. If Jesus established the context in Rev 4:1 as the future, and the context has not changed then Rev 17:10 must be future as well. It's a prophecy and it wouldn't be a prophecy if it was past or present. There are dozens of prophecies that reference a past event indicative of similar elements of a future event. Notably, "as it was in the days of Noah, so also shall the coming of the Son of man be." It's made quite clear what Jesus is saying here. It's also clear in Rev 17:10 when the context is 'hereafter' from Rev 4:1, a context that is not changed, nor is another context suggested.

I don't know the exact answer to the 7 kings. I cannot fully identify them. I have no clue to the identity of the 'one is'. That understanding could come later. What I do know is this:

Rev 17:11 "...even he is the eighth, and is of the seven..." And that the leader of an utterly bestial organization, one that existed in another form; that held vast territory and slaughtered over 250 million people during a 700 year bloodbath, in the name of a false god to force religious conversion, has been described as " the 8th, descended from a previous 7".  That seems to equate perfectly.

 

 

 

[douggg]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not the point. I'm saying Rev 17:11 tells us the beast must be the 8th and of the 7. Meaning that whatever or whoever the beast is, he must be like the first 7, or descend from the 7, etc. There is no way to discern who this might be based solely on Rev 17:11. However, if there is a person who fits such a description it has to be considered seriously.

The 'one is' from Rev 17:10 has always been misinterpreted. How is it that a sentence fragments meaning can be spread across 6000+ years? I say it cannot. Neither can this sentence fragment from Rev 17:10 be related to the Dan 2 statue as there is no parallel.

Since five kings are fallen at the time one is, that indicates those kings were dead at the time of John.     That is a starting point of reference as far as a historical timestamp for determining who the former kings were, the one who is at the time of John, and the one yet to come.      If it were not relevant, there would be no point in saying one is, five were fallen - if the 7 kings are floating at any time in history.

So any theory postulating that any of the 7 kings - such as the 7 caliphs, all of the caliphs coming long after the five fallen and one is timestamp - is eliminated from consideration.   

There is no reason to continue any Mahdi beast or Antichrist figure theory, as any of the previous muslim caliphs combinations come too late in history.

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and one is, Here's the real sticking point. "One is" must be present as we understand 'is'. True, but 'are' and 'is' are both present tense. So the literal meaning indicates the 7 who 'are', the five who 'are fallen', and the one who 'is' all exist at the same moment based on the usage of the present tense verbs. This shows only a future fulfillment is possible as it cannot be that these kings as a group, or an individual, both exist and do not exist at the same time.

You are trying to make the 7 kings floating in history, to accommodate your Mahdi theory.      It is a flawed attempt because there is nothing significant about king 6 in the text other that he is "one is".     So you have nothing to identify king 6 with.

Which, in turn, you have nothing to identify the five fallen prior to king 6.... using the floating 7 kings in history theory

The 7 kings understanding can only be if king 6 is anchored to the time of John, and him receiving Revelation.

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Diaste, where you need to apply the muslim, Islam, and all the craziness they come up with, is to Ezekiel 38 and 39, Gog and Magog invasion - right before the 7 years start.       The muslims and Islam are a factor, but they have to be put in the right place.

The guy that is lurking behind the scenes is the European little horn leader.    The EU is just a step away from a crisis over there with their financial system and brexit contagion - to force a re-organization into some sort of ten leader form of federal government.      Deutsche Bank just recently is reporting it is in financial trouble.    That could be bad for the EU's banking system.      I also think that Italy is in trouble.

The muslims, yes, they are going to be a factor, right up to the Gog and Magog invasion.     But before then, the EU has to reorganize, so that the little horn is in power.    He should be recognizable, because he will be a Jew.  So we keep an eye on Europe and the Muslims.  Erdogan is big trouble.

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, douggg said:

Since five kings are fallen at the time one is, that indicates those kings were dead at the time of John.     That is a starting point of reference as far as a historical timestamp for determining who the former kings were, the one who is at the time of John, and the one yet to come.      If it were not relevant, there would be no point in saying one is, five were fallen - if the 7 kings are floating at any time in history.

So any theory postulating that any of the 7 kings - such as the 7 caliphs, all of the caliphs coming long after the five fallen and one is timestamp - is eliminated from consideration.   

There is no reason to continue any Mahdi beast or Antichrist figure theory, as any of the previous muslim caliphs combinations come too late in history.

You are trying to make the 7 kings floating in history, to accommodate your Mahdi theory.      It is a flawed attempt because there is nothing significant about king 6 in the text other that he is "one is".     So you have nothing to identify king 6 with.

Which, in turn, you have nothing to identify the five fallen prior to king 6.... using the floating 7 kings in history theory

The 7 kings understanding can only be if king 6 is anchored to the time of John, and him receiving Revelation.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Diaste, where you need to apply the muslim, Islam, and all the craziness they come up with, is to Ezekiel 38 and 39, Gog and Magog invasion - right before the 7 years start.       The muslims and Islam are a factor, but they have to be put in the right place.

The guy that is lurking behind the scenes is the European little horn leader.    The EU is just a step away from a crisis over there with their financial system and brexit contagion - to force a re-organization into some sort of ten leader form of federal government.      Deutsche Bank just recently is reporting it is in financial trouble.    That could be bad for the EU's banking system.      I also think that Italy is in trouble.

The muslims, yes, they are going to be a factor, right up to the Gog and Magog invasion.     But before then, the EU has to reorganize, so that the little horn is in power.    He should be recognizable, because he will be a Jew.  So we keep an eye on Europe and the Muslims.  Erdogan is big trouble.

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying I can identify the 6th king. It's a real problem for any camp. All I'm saying is that the 6th king simply cannot be identified but we can rule out certain possibilities.

One of the big problems I have with the 6th king being identified as Nero, and then the whole RRE narrative, is when Rev was penned.  If in 68 AD then it's only possible that Nero is the 6th. But many historians place the writing of Rev in 90 AD. In that case there is no 6th Roman Emperor as Domitian was ruling and he was the 12th from Julius. It's also problematic due to many countries have ruling classes that may easily have a 8 king succession contemporary to Rome, John, and the giving of Rev; the great power the Parthians wielded is one example.  They were contemporary to Rome and Rome never conquered this region. They ruled from 247 BC to 228 AD and obviously had a succession of kings. But again, the true identity of the 6th king is difficult, for anyone.

In any case I will likely not be convinced that these 7 kings are a group that can be split up and seeded throughout the greater share of the history of mankind. Obviously, and as already stated several times, Rev 4:1 says, "...and I will show you the things which must be hereafter." Must be. Inevitable and a timestamp. Hereafter, because it must be so. But further, Rev 17 is all future from what I can see, making it very difficult to go from future events, to suddenly rocketing into the distant past due to a sentence fragment, and ignoring the context of the entire chapter. Must be hereafter.  This is what make the Revelation prophecy. If it's past then it ain't prophecy.

I should clarify what I mean by Islam. I don't mean the whole of the Muslim world though most will follow the beast. I mean the ideology of Islam. This only relates biblically to a smaller group in a specific region. Since the beast DOES NOT come to power through typically means (political, military) and only comes to power through the authority and power of the dragon by God's will, a small group is all that's necessary. Once the beast is shown to be immortal (head wound healed) and imbued with otherworldly, supernatural power, the world bows to him. 

Now as to the reality of the Iron kingdom:

We know that the thighs of brass in the statue is the Grecian empire.  We know the great horn of the rough goat is Greece (rough goat) and Alexander (the great horn). Once the great horn is broken four notable horns rise (the Diadochi), and the little horn rises from one of these. This little horn is the beast, the 8th king, the 'was not, yet is', the AC, the willful king. This little horn must arise from one of the four notable horns. That means the little horn comes from either Cassander (Greece), Ptolemy (Egypt), Antigonus (Asia Minor) or Seleucid (Middle East).  It's interesting you mention Erdogan. He's a Muslim steeped in Islam. But Asia Minor is the king of the north so the beast does not come from there.  From this the RRE is out as well as the EU the UN or any other country not a part of the Ancient Grecian empire. 

In light of the above the kingdom that follows the brass in the statute must be either the Diadochi or some other kingdom that rose from the Diadochi. And that isn't Rome or the UN or the EU. But there's more. There's two incarnations of the Iron kingdom; the legs of iron, and the feet and toes of iron and clay.  We have to look for a kingdom that rose from the Diadochi, ruled for a time as purely iron, then rises again as the same iron as the previous kingdom but this time mixed with clay.

Daniel 11 follows the kings of the Seleucid empire. We know this because Daniel 11 begins; "...Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia;" and we then follow the succession of kings in this area right to the willful king (the beast) who, "...shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods.... Since the context begins with Persia and does change throughout the chapter, and indeed looks like another narrative concerning the Grecian empire, it's fall and division and the interaction of the three most powerful kings, Antigonus, Ptolemy and Seleucid, to arise from that fall, which then continues to the willful king, we see the focus of from whence the beast cometh narrowed even more.  In this context the KOTN is then Asia Minor (Turkey) and the KOTS, Egypt. Leaving the middle king, the Seleucid realm of the Middle East, as the birthplace of the beast.

Even as went over that pretty fast it's still easy to see the beast comes from the ancient Grecian divisions and nowhere else.

[douggg]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

In any case I will likely not be convinced that these 7 kings are a group that can be split up and seeded throughout the greater share of the history of mankind.

The bible indicates that the 6 kings are split from king 7 by virtue of the crowns on the heads in Revelation 12, but not in Revelation 17.    It is an open and shut case.  

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Inevitable and a timestamp. Hereafter, because it must be so. But further, Rev 17 is all future from what I can see, making it very difficult to go from future events, to suddenly rocketing into the distant past due to a sentence fragment, and ignoring the context of the entire chapter. Must be hereafter.  This is what make the Revelation prophecy. If it's past then it ain't prophecy.

Completion of the 7 kings prophecy is future.     That the five are fallen and one is - is historical information to identify king 7 in the future, coming to power at the beginning of the 70th week.      Just as the first five verses of Revelation 12 is historical information - to identify the woman in the future, Revelation 12:6-17 as being Israel, during that chapter, which is revealing of the 70th week relevant to Israel.

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I should clarify what I mean by Islam. I don't mean the whole of the Muslim world though most will follow the beast.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So to you, some muslims have their name written in the book of life?

There won't be any muslims in the world at the time of the beast so it is not an issue. Islam will no longer exist following Gog/Magog (pre-70th week) as a relevant religion.  

But if it were, that would cause a problem for your statement because no muslim has their name written in the Lamb's book of life.    And for any muslim to worship a man claiming to be God is a violation of the most basic of Islam belief.

 

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, douggg said:

The bible indicates that the 6 kings are split from king 7 by virtue of the crowns on the heads in Revelation 12, but not in Revelation 17.    It is an open and shut case.  

Not what I meant. I realize there must be a time gap in the prophecy even if I don't understand every nuance of that gap. It's obvious none of 70th week prophecies have come to pass as we are not in 70th week, nor the millennial kingdom, nor have we all returned to God after the final defeat of Gog and Magog and death. What is highly improbable is seeding all 7 kings across time from antiquity to sometime in the future when Rev 17:10 is future from the giving of the prophecy, based on Rev 4:1.

Completion of the 7 kings prophecy is future.     That the five are fallen and one is - is historical information to identify king 7 in the future, coming to power at the beginning of the 70th week.      Just as the first five verses of Revelation 12 is historical information - to identify the woman in the future, Revelation 12:6-17 as being Israel, during that chapter, which is revealing of the 70th week relevant to Israel.

I agree with the idea that the woman in Rev 12 is identified by historical fact. It's clear she's Israel and the man child is Jesus; who sits on the right hand of God and is destined to rule the nations. All of this was given in prophecies 1000's of years ago so I have no problem with that. However, Rev 12:6-12 goes immediately to a future event concerning the woman and the dragon. But there is a problem with creating a parallel between Rev 12 and Rev 17 concerning the beast and the timeline. The first problem is the historical aspect. Sure, Rev 12:1-5 is clearly an historical reference to Israel and Jesus. But the rise of the beast from the pit, the beast that was not and yet is, is not history from John's day.  The second problem I see is the difference between the dragon and the beast. The dragon is cast out of heaven in Rev 12 and the beast ascends out of the bottomless pit in Rev 17. Not the same and still all future. Since the beast ascending out of the bottomless pit is future from John's day, and the beast out of the pit carries with him the 7 heads, which are 7 mountains and 7 kings, then the 7 kings are future from John's day as well. This means that any time from the late 1st century till now the 7 kings could have ruled, but not before.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So to you, some muslims have their name written in the book of life?

I would expect so. Conversion can bless anyone and everyone. No one is excluded except by their own choice. I do believe the elect are gathered from all over the earth from all peoples and nations and tongues.

There won't be any muslims in the world at the time of the beast so it is not an issue. Islam will no longer exist following Gog/Magog (pre-70th week) as a relevant religion.

Shocking. Not sure that can be well defended. If you want to get into the Gog/Magog war and the destruction thereof seems to come near the end of the millennial reign of Christ. I cannot seem to find an earlier time/space moment. 

But if it were, that would cause a problem for your statement because no muslim has their name written in the Lamb's book of life.    And for any muslim to worship a man claiming to be God is a violation of the most basic of Islam belief.

I see a statement like you make in the fist sentence of the above paragraph to be judgmental and elitist. I'd reexamine your position based on the Gospels and the Epistles. Salvation is open to everyone and unless Jesus makes specific statements saying a particular people group is fully and finally excluded from the gift of salvation and the kingdom of heaven, then anyone can accept Jesus' gift of His shed blood to cover sins and the promise of eternal life by the Grace of God.

I have heard the same argument against Islam being the final empire used before and it's just as weak now as then. First, no Muslim, or group of Muslims, are so morally superior and of such rigid integrity as to never compromise their dogma.  Look at Christians, the exemplar of moral and religious compromise; such an affliction is ubiquitous, no religion is excluded. If a person is faced with an ultimate choice, such as life and death, starvation, homelessness, etc, they will choose to retain their lifestyle in most cases. So when the beast threatens the world with conversion or death a great many will choose conversion and worship the beast, and the dragon, including those from every religion.

 

 

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I would expect so. Conversion can bless anyone and everyone. No one is excluded except by their own choice. I do believe the elect are gathered from all over the earth from all peoples and nations and tongues.

They are not muslim anymore if they become Christians.

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Shocking. Not sure that can be well defended. If you want to get into the Gog/Magog war and the destruction thereof seems to come near the end of the millennial reign of Christ. I cannot seem to find an earlier time/space moment. 

There are seven years following Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39 in the text.    Those seven years are the 70th week of Daniel 9.

There are no 7 years following Satan's last rebellion in Revelation 20, but the Great White Throne judgment.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I see a statement like you make in the fist sentence of the above paragraph to be judgmental and elitist. I'd reexamine your position based on the Gospels and the Epistles. Salvation is open to everyone and unless Jesus makes specific statements saying a particular people group is fully and finally excluded from the gift of salvation and the kingdom of heaven, then anyone can accept Jesus' gift of His shed blood to cover sins and the promise of eternal life by the Grace of God.

They will not be muslim anymore, if they receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.   

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But the rise of the beast from the pit, the beast that was not and yet is, is not history from John's day.  

You did not quote the verse correctly - neither parts 8a nor 8b.     The verse doesn't says "was not and yet is" - anywhere.        It says was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 17:8a in blue is historic, prior to John's time.     8b skips to the end times and refers to the end time person.

  8a    The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

 8b     and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.