Who is The 7th Kingdom Beast (and 8th) of Rev?

[douggg]

8 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

Matthew 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

Cross references: “preached in all the world”

 

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

 

Col. 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

 

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.

 

We know with 2000 years of hindsight and with 100% certainty that the entire world was not in the days of the 1st century.    Those verses indicate the gospel was being widespread in their day, but with 100% certainty it was not the entire world - which preaching of the gospel to the entire world is required before the end comes.   

The rest of Matthew 24 is end times.   So there is no reason to belabor trying to fit Matthew 24:15-31 those into the first century which did not meet the requirements to be the end times.

The Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15,  which Jesus referred to Daniel, is in the text of Daniel 12, to be in the end times.   The end times was not in Josephus's day nor Adam Clarke's day.   

 

  

 

Edited May 22, 2016 by douggg

[douggg]

7 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

Here's the rest Douggg, all the way up to verse 39.

 I really don’t expect to move you in the slightest Douggg.

Sigh....   why?     I don't get it why you think what you have presented fits Matthew 24:26-31, Jesus's return, which is also in Revelation 19 with full description, with any sort reasonableness.     The armies of heaven are with Him.   

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

[douggg]

7 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

BTW Douggg, this is my own study and I had posted much of this several years ago here on WB. I simply went through it all and gleaned what was pertinent to our discourse and made a few extra notes. However, much of my old stuff here doesn't seem to be accessable anymore...

I would also recommend reading through Josephus at least once if you haven't.

 

 

Are you aware of what the preterist view is ?    What you are presenting is basically preteristism.    Preteristism has no common ground with futurism to even have a discussion.

Edited May 22, 2016 by douggg

[BlindSeeker]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

We know with 2000 years of hindsight and with 100% certainty that the entire world was not in the days of the 1st century.    Those verses indicate the gospel was being widespread in their day, but with 100% certainty it was not the entire world - which preaching of the gospel to the entire world is required before the end comes.   

So then, according to your position, the readers of those scriptures for the last 2000 years had no possible hope of rightly dividing these passages because they lacked the necessity of “hindsight.”

To be honest with you Douggg, I find that notion both absurd and offensive and even contrary to the very scriptures themselves.

2 Corinthians 5:7 - For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Romans 10:17 - So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Perhaps you, like so many, are simply looking at the word “world” and think of it in a modern yet un-scriptural concept of a “global,” or world-wide, all-inclusive of the geographical limitations of the physical earth. But that is partly due to our ignorance and inability to read the scriptures in its original Greek format.

A little study will plainly reveal that where the translators have written to us the word “world,” in the original we have at least three different Greek words being so translated. So obviously there is a distinction in each of the original Greek words meaning and those the appropriate word was spoken, or written and recorded, so clarify the author’s specific implication.

But if we take all those Greek words and just throw them into out theological blenders and call them one thing, well then Douggg, 2000 years later you are going to discover that “hindsight” often has a different perspective than that of the original. That is because most “Christians” have been churched and consequently thought to read things in the light of their theological training.

That is probably most evident in how the theology of men like C.I. Scofield and Dr. Frank C. Thompson's have literally come to dominate the understanding of pastors, teacher, would-be-so-called-wanna-be theologians, and Christians in general, or virtually every believer in these end-time generations. For seminaries everywhere use his reference bible and notes as an outline for their training of how to understand the scriptures.

I’m not saying these men was wrong on every point, or that he wasn’t sincere and willing to submit his theology to the scrutiny of others. I am saying though that adversary has surely capitalized on his errors perhaps more those of any other theologian in these last day and has manage to literally control the understanding of lazy “ministers.” Foolish men who will one day suffer great loss finding their ministries where only that of wood, hay, and stubble because instead of praying and fasting and seeking God for understanding themselves that they might rightly divide the word of truth through the leading of the Spirit of Truth, they simply accepted the theology of another man because, well it makes sense when you have your theological blinders on.

But one who isn’t lazy, who is willing to come to God on his own with said prayer and fasting and personally study so as to diligently seek Him, they will find God is a rewarder of such faithful obedience. For we must be willing to humble ourselves so and do these simply things first if we are to have any hope of truly knowing and understanding the truth. I therefore believe every Christians nowadays should examine their fasting and prayer life and see if they truly are humbling themselves before God or just running this race in a vain confidence. 

John 8:31 - Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free… 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Such practices applied with minimal study effort will help one discover what the original intent of a passage is where the word “world” has been rendered by the translators. So let’s look at three verses with the “English” word “world” and examine the Greek word that was so translated.

We’ll start first Douggg with Matthew since it is a passage in question.

Matthew 24:3 - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world <aion>?

<aion> -  properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end).

Romans 10:17 - So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world <oikoumene>.

<oikoumene> - land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) earth; specially, the Roman empire: earth, earthy (occurring on or inhabiting dry land): of the world; i.e. secular rather than spiritual; world, worldly.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world <kosmos>, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not His Son into the world <kosmos> to condemn the world <kosmos>; but that the world <kosmos> through Him might be saved.

<kosmos> - orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally)): adorning, world.

 

With only a little research one would discover that the Greek word <aion> when used is most often to signify “an age." Over all, it has been used 128 times in the NT.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end <sunteleia> of the world <aion>. Amen.

Surely we are not to understand Jesus as saying this geographically, for where then could we distinguish this end; for in fact there is nowhere in heaven or earth He is not. Rather, Jesus was assuring them and us of all nations that He is with us to the end of this age. For that is made evident by the Greek word <sunteleia>.

<sunteleia> - entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.

Study would reveal that the Greek word <oikoumene> has been used 15 times in scripture and clearly used to reference both the duration and expanse of the first century Roman Empire.

Luke 2:1 - And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world <oikoumene> should be taxed.   

 Plus, we can see it contrasted in here in Revelation.

Romans 10:18 - But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world <oikoumene>.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world <oikoumene>, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world <oikoumene>: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world <oikoumene>, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Lastly, the Greek word <kosmos> has been used 187 times in scripture and most often to refer to the carnal or ungodly aspects of the world," (see1). Occasionally, it can refer to the material universe or the earth (see 2), and sometimes as a general reference to all men, (see 3).

1.     1 John 2:15 - Love not the world <kosmos>, neither the things that are in the world <kosmos>. If any man love the world <kosmos>, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world <kosmos>, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world <kosmos>.

2.     Acts 17:24 - God that made the world <kosmos>and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

3.     John 3:16 For God so loved the world <kosmos>, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not His Son into the world <kosmos> to condemn the world <kosmos>; but that the world <kosmos> through Him might be saved.

1 hour ago, douggg said:

The rest of Matthew 24 is end times.   So there is no reason to belabor trying to fit Matthew 24:15-31 those into the first century which did not meet the requirements to be the end times.

Yes, admittedly, Jesus goes beyond the scope of the disciple’s questions and gave them prophecy concerning things to come, even to the end of these last days. However, it is the height of naivety and poor scholarship to think His continuance to speak unto them those things somehow disproves the fact that the disciples where too ignorant to ask about His second coming; and that they were actually speaking of His coming into power on an earthly throne and over throwing the Roman domination.

1 hour ago, douggg said:

 So there is no reason to belabor trying to fit Matthew 24:15-31 those into the first century which did not meet the requirements to be the end times.

Well, I showed you in my previous posts how those verse do have scritpural and historical affiliation with the first century, plus above the intent of the word "world" in those passages. But my reason for laboring here, though for you, actually goes beyond you to the other readers. However, I would never consider thorough examine=ation of scriptures merely a "belabor."

Belabor - be·la·bor:  

1. To argue or elaborate (a subject) in excessive detail.

 "critics thought they belabored the obvious"

synonyms: overelaborate, labor, dwell on, harp on about, hammer away at; More    overdo, overplay, overdramatize, make too much of, place too much emphasis on;     informal beat to death, drag out, make a big thing of, blow out of proportion

2.   attack or assault (someone) physically or verbally.

 "Tyndale seized every opportunity to belabor the Roman Church"

Or perhaps your use of the word is merely categorizing you as one of those "critics" who "thought they [or, I have] belabored the obvious."

 

1 hour ago, douggg said:

The Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15,  which Jesus referred to Daniel, is in the text of Daniel 12, to be in the end times.   The end times was not in Josephus's day nor Adam Clarke's day.

I fully understand your position, I just don't hold to it. 

 

[BlindSeeker]

 

4 hours ago, douggg said:

Sigh....   why?     I don't get it why you think what you have presented fits Matthew 24:26-31, Jesus's return, which is also in Revelation 19 with full description, with any sort reasonableness.     The armies of heaven are with Him.   

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

What I presented was absolutely scriptural and historical and in no way conflicts with Revelation 19. One was, and one is yet to come.

[BlindSeeker]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

Are you aware of what the preterist view is ?    What you are presenting is basically sm.    Preteristism has no common ground with futurism to even have a discussion.

Yes, I am fully aware of the preterist view of scripture.

No, what I am presenting is not "basically preteristism," and just FYI, the word is actually preterism.

I fully agree that preterism "has no common ground with furturism." I have provided links for otherwise who may not understand what you are referencing. 

However, I strongly disagree with your assertion that there is "no common ground... to even have a discussion," since they both perspectives claim for their theologies the support of scripture. Is that no "common ground?" If not, then I don't know what ground is greater...

However, the problem is both preterism and futurism is they are merely the extreme points to which the theological pendulum has swung, not unlike Calvinism and Arminianism. Both have scriptural foundations and truths, both have errors. Thus it's up to the student of God's word to humble themselves with prayer and fasting as they earnestly seek out the truth.

Perterism error lies within it limiting Matthew 24 to 70 AD while futurism says all the prophecy lies in the future. That is not my position, nor is it what I have presented. So if you choose to dismiss my points because you are a futurist and wrongly think I am a preterist, then you do so on a misconception. For the “ground” of my discussion with you has been both the scriptures and history, not the tenets of preterism.

[douggg]

4 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

So then, according to your position, the readers of those scriptures for the last 2000 years had no possible hope of rightly dividing these passages because they lacked the necessity of “hindsight.”

To be honest with you Douggg, I find that notion both absurd and offensive and even contrary to the very scriptures themselves.

I did not say anything about rightly dividing anything.   You are picking your own words, not mine, acting like it I said them.

The facts are regarding Jesus restoring the kingdom to Israel, he told the disciples in Acts 1, it was not for them to know the times and seasons.    None of the apostles in the new testament explained the little horn, nor Ezekiel 38/39,  nor Ezekiel 37, nor the visions in Revelation, nor the abomination of desolation - because it was not given for them to know.    And in Daniel 12, the understanding of the abomination of desolation was said in the text to be sealed until the end times.   And then it goes on to note the characteristics of the end times.     It was not in the first century, and it was not in Adam Clarke's day
 

Quote

 

Perhaps you, like so many, are simply looking at the word “world” and think of it in a modern yet un-scriptural concept of a “global,” or world-wide, all-inclusive of the geographical limitations of the physical earth. But that is partly due to our ignorance and inability to read the scriptures in its original Greek format.

A little study will plainly reveal that where the translators have written to us the word “world,” in the original we have at least three different Greek words being so translated. So obviously there is a distinction in each of the original Greek words meaning and those the appropriate word was spoken, or written and recorded, so clarify the author’s specific implication.

But if we take all those Greek words and just throw them into out theological blenders and call them one thing, well then Douggg, 2000 years later you are going to discover that “hindsight” often has a different perspective than that of the original. That is because most “Christians” have been churched and consequently thought to read things in the light of their theological training.

 

Go to Zechariah 14, it gives a visible, distinct, can't miss it, sign of what is meant by all nations.    The witness of the gospel to all nations and the end times events did not happen in the first century because the Mt. of Olives is still today in tack, not split in half..    

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

Zechariah 14:

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

Edited May 22, 2016 by douggg

[douggg]

3 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

Yes, I am fully aware of the preterist view of scripture.

No, what I am presenting is not "basically preteristism," and just FYI, the word is actually preterism.

I fully agree that preterism "has no common ground with furturism." I have provided links for otherwise who may not understand what you are referencing. 

However, I strongly disagree with your assertion that there is "no common ground... to even have a discussion," since they both perspectives claim for their theologies the support of scripture. Is that no "common ground?" If not, then I don't know what ground is greater...

However, the problem is both preterism and futurism is they are merely the extreme points to which the theological pendulum has swung, not unlike Calvinism and Arminianism. Both have scriptural foundations and truths, both have errors. Thus it's up to the student of God's word to humble themselves with prayer and fasting as they earnestly seek out the truth.

 

Perterism error lies within it limiting Matthew 24 to 70 AD while futurism says all the prophecy lies in the future. That is not my position, nor is it what I have presented. So if you choose to dismiss my points because you are a futurist and wrongly think I am a preterist, then you do so on a misconception. For the “ground” of my discussion with you has been both the scriptures and history, not the tenets of preterism.

You need to do an image search on the Mt. of Olives.   You will see that it has not been split in half.

[BlindSeeker]

30 minutes ago, douggg said:

 

4 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

So then, according to your position, the readers of those scriptures for the last 2000 years had no possible hope of rightly dividing these passages because they lacked the necessity of “hindsight.”

To be honest with you Douggg, I find that notion both absurd and offensive and even contrary to the very scriptures themselves.

I did not say anything about rightly dividing anything.   You are picking your own words, not mine, acting like it I said them.

 

No, and I didn't say you did. You mention "hindsight" as if it is the reason "we know..."

9 hours ago, douggg said:

We know with 2000 years of hindsight and with 100% certainty that the entire world was not in the days of the 1st century.  

And like I said, " I find that notion both absurd and offensive and even contrary to the very scriptures themselves."

30 minutes ago, douggg said:

Go to Zechariah 14, it gives a visible, distinct, can't miss it, sign of what is meant by all nations.    The witness of the gospel to all nations and the end times events did not happen in the first century because the Mt. of Olives is still today in tack, not split in half..    

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

Zechariah 14:

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

I'm not sure you are seeing it but there is a profound difference, I mean like a really gigantic difference, between the Christians fleeing Jerusalem before the Roman siege and going forth “being a witness unto all nations” and God gathering “gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle.”

You see it don't you Douggg? So why are you putting apples and oranges together here and trying to sell them as the same??? I'm really not sure what your point is. I already showed you verses where Matthew 24:14 has scriptural confirmation of being fulfilled. SO???

 

 

Nevertheless, I do see Zechariah 14 as possibly coming into fulfillment in a couple of years…

 

 

[BlindSeeker]

24 minutes ago, douggg said:

You need to do an image search on the Mt. of Olives.   You will see that it has not been split in half.

Did I say that it was split in half?