Who is The 7th Kingdom Beast (and 8th) of Rev?

[douggg]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well, not exactly. There is no time/space point signifying the point of recovery in Rev 13. What we know from Rev 13 is that there are 42 months where the beast acts out a murderous rampage and elevates himself to godhood. Rev 13 does not state the head wound occurs in conjunction with the commencement of a 42 month period; which you place in the 2nd half of the week. I agree the 42 month period in Rev 13 is the 2nd half of the week but I see no connection demanding the recovery is related to the beginning of the 2nd half. 

Rev 13 is stating circumstances surrounding the rise of the beast and the scope of his authority. Rev 13:1-4 are the circumstances and Rev 13:5-7 describe the scope of authority given to him. Because scripture states it was given to the beast to continue 42 months does not mean that the 42 months necessarily begins right then. In fact Rev 13 does not provide a timeline. It's simply a chapter relating circumstances of the rise of two beasts, the authority of those beasts and their actions. From Daniel 9 and Matt 24 we know the signal of the midpoint of the week is the A of D, not the healed head wound.

The Jews will not believe they have entered any messianic age. It fact the opposite is true. Isaiah 28:15 "Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:" The Jews all know what they have done, the same thing they have always done, commit adultery and rebel against God. As part of Jewish religious belief they have no need for a Messiah, they don't believe in one. They want to go into battle themselves and have "I am" fight for them or fight against the enemy. The Jews will never think a Messiah is coming to save them; it's not in their religious or national identity.

You also miss the point of the witnesses. What, or who, are they going to be preaching against? Why are people trying to hurt them? 

You are way off when you say, "The world saying "who is like the beast?  and who can make war with him?  is talking about that he had just killed the two witnesses who were calling plagues on the world - so the world is rejoicing to see them killed by the beast."

Scripture links the worship of the dragon and the beast with the head wound that is healed, Rev 13:3 " And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." They word 'and' links the previous action with the following action. The wound, the healing and the wonder all occur one after the other. The wonder of the world has nothing to do with the beast killing the witnesses. Rev 13:4 continues linking more action with Rev 13:3, "4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

What we know is true from scripture is the rise of the beast occurs at the 1st seal. I can only make the connection that the rider of the white horse in the 1st seal is the beast, and he arrives at the beginning of the week and begins to conquer. This rider is given a bow and a crown. He also goes forth conquering. Right away he begins the conquests. Scripture also says, "to conquer" this means some conquests are going to come later, or be ongoing at the proper times. The nature, timing and scope of the conquests are not clear. But the interesting part is the crown. Right away this rider, the beast, or antichrist, has power and authority. If this is indeed the beginning of the week then the beast has a prominent position in world affairs immediately.

 

Diaste, do you know what the difference is between what you are saying and what I am saying ?

I have put all of the timeframes of the end times events in order, and you have not.    It you did, that is when you would start seeing the conflicts in what you are now saying.

I made a thread on all of the timeframes.

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, douggg said:

Diaste, do you know what the difference is between what you are saying and what I am saying ?

I have put all of the timeframes of the end times events in order, and you have not.    It you did, that is when you would start seeing the conflicts in what you are now saying.

I made a thread on all of the timeframes.

 

 

 

 

Yes. You have made a time line. I disagree with at least portions of it, as did in my post. The beast rises in the beginning of the week or shortly before it begins. But I'll check out the new thread.

[Revelation Man]

On 3/1/2016 at 5:44 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Good start to the discussion. So here is what I see -

The woman sits on the 7 Heads , hills, kings.

Heads refer to the leader of the kingdom. Thus we are looking at a person.

7 kings/leaders –

*5 leaders have `come & gone

*one leader is (just before the 10 kings give authority (v. 12) – first part of tribulation)

* one leader has not yet come – A/C has not yet received the 42 mths of power.

* the eighth leader `was, is not & is himself also the 8<sup>th</sup>` - Satan. (parody of Christ)

 

So to me this is talking about 7 leaders over the final kingdom not over 7 kingdoms. It is specifically revealing the final leader, the Head of the Global Government, (the beast).

 

Note that is an important detail –

7 Heads/leaders (consecutively) over the final kingdom.

 

Marilyn.

Nice post, I have a blog on this very subject and my reasoning/thinking is the same. The 8th King is "of the seven" and goes into perdition, this can only be Satan, he was of all seven Beast Systems so to speak because he is the god of this world, but he ruled in absentia because he is in heaven accusing the brethren. So he was, but was not, yet is, because he will be cast out of Heaven by Michael and will possess the 7th King or Anti-Christ, and is given power to overcome the Saints 42 months. 

 

God Bless sister.

[Kan]

Note in the top section of the chart the 7 or 8 kingdoms as decribed in the Bible. The last one is of the seven.

This is how the beasts are arranged.

The lion, bear, leopard, the dreadful beast, the horns in Daniel.

In Revelation the same themes are picked up. The first beast of Rev 13 is the Papacy, the second is the US. The beast out of the bottomless pit in chapter 11 is France. From this stems communism, which ends up disappearing, while at the same time becoming globally absorbed through socialistic and draconian anti terrorist laws/ideologies. 

There are the seven beasts/heads which we are supposed to think about when it says "five are fallen, one is and the other is not yet come"

Five fallen, includes the bear, lion, leopard, dreadful beast, and the papal power, which had a deadly wound but survives it and heals. Note the little papal horn power lives until the end. "One is" the US, and "the other is not yet come" - the world revolution (out of the bottomless pit), the scarlet beast. 

[BlindSeeker]

8 hours ago, Giller said:

...Now notice that it talks of 7 heads that the beast has, 7 heads that the woman sitteth on , which are 7 mountains , and 7 kings that the beast is of , yet being the 8 th king.

The angel never says the 8th is a monarchial kingdom, i.e. under the rule of a king. It simple states “the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.”

So whether that signifies the eighth empire, (for that is what “mountains’ prophetically represent in scriptures,) is a conglomeration of the whole or sum of the seven, or simply a direct result of the seventh, we cannot tell.

Here are just a few scriptures to confirm what is being prophetically implied through the angel’s use of the word “mountain” in his interpretation of the seven heads to John. Why people want to make them mere“hills” is beyond me…

Jeremiah 51:24 - And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD. 25 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.

Zechariah 4:7 - Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

Daniel 2:35 - Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 2:45 - Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Amos 4:1 - Hear this word, ye kine of Bashan, that are in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink.

Amos 6:1 - Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria, which are named chief of the nations, to whom the house of Israel came!

As we can tell from the scriptures above, all these mountains have had a direct correlation with Israel, which like the beast “was, is not, yet is” today. That is not to say the beast, or the eighth is Israel, but rather the succession of empires noted as the seven leading up to the eighth are historically connected directly to Israel.

So when Israel was destroyed as a functioning empire with geographical boundaries recognized by other nations and “was not,” the beast also “was not.” And who can ignore the fact that when Israel was rebirth in her own land that was then called Palestine; which was under the United Kingdom’s sovereignty and King George VI only live 4 short years longer?

  

[BlindSeeker]

9 hours ago, Giller said:

In my other study , I ended with this question.

So in what manner shall the beast, be , and is not , and yet is ?

Well before we get to that question , I want to go on with Revelation 17:9.

Rev 17:9

(9)  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Now previously I have covered the fact of who were the seven heads that the antichrist ‘hath’ , which here is the scripture.

Rev 17:7

(7) …………the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Here they  are,  in chronological order: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, Eclessiatical Rome (Roman Catholicism).

So we had covered the 7 heads that the beast   ”hath”

But now we will cover , something which concerns the woman , and not the beast , which it mentions 7 heads , being  7 mountains on which the woman “sitteth “.

It is said that this woman sitteth on all these 7 mountains.

What are these 7 mountains ?

Well let us go unto the Greek word , used for mountains here.

(Strong’s concordance, word:’ mountains’)

(G3735 - ὄρος - oros = or'-os

Probably a from an obsolete word ὄρω orō (to rise or rear; perhaps akin to G142; compare G3733); a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain): - hill, mount (-ain).

Total KJV occurrences: 65)

 

So can mountains here, be referring to an hill ?  Well we will see.

And also it says concerning this word oros  “that it is as lifting itself above a plain”.

Both the words mountains and hills appear all over the bible , but in some cases it appears that the word mountain and hill , can sometimes be interchangeable , which one of the definitions of the word Oros says: “that it is as lifting itself above a plain"

Here is an example of the words mountain and hill being used in an interchangeable way.

It is in reference to the mount of transfiguration.

Luk 9:28

(28)  And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

Notice it shows here , that they went up into a mountain.

But what about when they came down , what does it say ?

Luk 9:37

(37)  And it came to pass, that on the next day, when they were come down from the hill, much people met him.

 

So in some cases , in the bible , a mountain can be considered as an hill , which in most cases would refer to a small mountain no doubt.

Now let us go back to our scripture.

Rev 17:9

(9)  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

 

Now here it does not specify what size these mountains are , just that they are mountains , which as we seen in the bible , in some cases can be considered hills.

Now if we talk about mount Ararat , you know that that cannot be considered an hill , but in some other cases , mountains can be considered hills ,and I believe in our scripture of Revelation 17:9 , that it does refer to mountains that can be considered as hills.

Why does God call certain mountains , hills in the bible ? Who knows , but God surely does know and he sees everything and knows everything.

And  I know that Rome  is known as the city of seven hills.

And here are it’s hills:

(-The seven hills are, namely:The Quirinal Hill, The Aventine Hill, The Caelian Hill, The Viminal Hill, The Capitoline Hill, The Esquiline Hill, The Palatine Hill)

Now the Vatican hill , is not one of the seven hills, yet is still within Rome, it is the main headquarters of the Catholic church.

* * * * * [EDITED] * * * * *

So you can see that the Roman Catholic church is truly seated on all the 7 mounts , mountains or hills.

And I believe that if you went deeper into this , you can find more Catholic connections to these hills, and a lot of what we covered here are very important places to the Catholic church , some are it’s Pontficate University , Basilica’s and even mother churches of it’s organizations , and headquarters.

In fact the Catholic church has strong holds on these 7 hills , and are deeply seated on these hills.

So let us get back to our scripture.

Rev 17:9

(9)  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

So there you have it , proof that the woman , which is the Roman Catholic church , sitting on all these 7 mounts , mountains or hills.

And these 7 mountains on which she sits , cannot be referring to the Vatican , even though the Vatican is it’s main headquarters , but rather it truly is referring to Rome , which the Catholic church is deeply rooted in , and sits on all it’s seven hills.

So, what you basically are saying is the "seven mountains' represent both civil and religious empires as well as the literal "hills" of Rome?

Though spoken like a true protestant, I disagree with such speculation because such a notion requires the forcing of a monarch position onto that of the papacy, something the Holy Spirit would not do; yet it must be done in order for you to force “Ecclesiastical Rome” or Catholicism into the position of the seventh empire which has a “king.” Which, if you are going to equally assert that the seven mountains can and must be also literal hills/mountains, then the monarchic position of kings must stay equally literal.

However, since it is the angel of the Lord who explains that the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and that there is also historic succession of seven kings, since “five are fallen, one is, and the other is not yet come,” he has the authority to tell us what the imagery of the seven heads represents, seven mountains which prophetically represents monarchical empires, each with their respective king; one dominant kingdom at a time until it is replaced by the rising up of another.

Jeremiah 1:10 - See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

 Jeremiah 18:7 - At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

Jeremiah 51:25 - Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.

The prophetic imagery of this singular woman just like any of us, can only sit upon one thing at a time. So in the vision she sits upon this single beast with seven heads which are representative of time, past, present and the future. For this cause the angel says “Wherefore did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns… here is the mind which hath wisdom, the seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits and there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.”

This woman representative of apostate mystery religion, which perhaps was made more prevalent during the zenith of the Babylonian Empire than she was before and perchance is thus called “Mystery, Babylon.” She has sat exercising her rebellious Jezebelian religious spirit of manipulation through its demonic influence over upon each of these mountains/empires, one at a time throughout history, to coerce each of them into open opposition and/or persecution of Israel and the righteous of God.

[BlindSeeker]

1 hour ago, Giller said:

The seven heads represent 3 things , which one is in connection to what the beast hath , the other is in connection with were the woman sitteth (the mountains only refer to one thing , Rome (the 7 hills), the mountains do not refer to anything else) , and were you talk of 5 kings being fallen , and one is , and the other continuing a short space , I did not get into yet.

The seven heads represent seven monarchical kingdoms of which one, the sixth, was indeed Rome. However, to say "the mountains do not refer to anything else" apart from the hills of Rome is but an opinion to which you are certainly at liberity to hold. But to be open and honest with you, my opinion is that you are wrong.

1 hour ago, Giller said:

And anyhow Mr blindseeker, what is your back ground , because I want to know were you are coming from , what kind of assembly are you part of ? Are you Catholic , non Catholic , or just consider yourself a Christian ?

I am one who is endeavoring to be a faithful disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ, who seeks to obey all His words, as well as the admonition of His servant the Apostle Paul to study to show myself approved by striving to rightly dividing the word of truth, proving all things in the light of scripture as well as history, while prayerfully watching of the unfolding of current world events in their relationship to the nation of Israel.

My identity to you only needs be affiliated with my personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, as there is no beneficial need for you to know me through any other affiliation, be it of the flesh or religious system, for such will only inadvertently prejudice you in your perception of me and my personal convictions. However, as a courtesy I will clearly state that I am not part of the apostate system of Catholicism.

[Kan]

Just a few notes on the definitions of mountain, head, beast, kingdom, king, horn, nations, crown.

Common sense shows that these terms all refer to the presence of people or nations tribes etc. But we know that they are interchangeable depending on the theme that needs to be appreciated.

There is a battle between Christ to liberate people and Satan to lead people captive. And obviously when we have large centralized or controlled populations, these scenarios appear in politics and the religious intents behind them. Nations are ultimately led by certain forces, depending on how much autonomy there is of the devil over the powers of earth. And this theme will determine whether it is represented as a horn, crown, king or beast etc.

In some prophecies such as the ones the angel Gabriel spoke in Daniel 11, the term "according to his will" is not so much the will of the political leader, but of Satan himself, so that this "will" may be carried out through several successive political leaders, all represented as one move by the enemy, as far as Gabriel is concerned.

You cannot have a king or leader without lots of people, represented as mountains which are symbolic of hierarchy, or the pyramid of control. So kingdoms rise out of seas of people. Destructive beasts of prey, rise from the nations, through 'natural' hierarchy and control/government.

A kingdom may be led by a single purpose or controlled by a single leader, as a king would. And so king is used as a symbol here. But it does not necessarily mean there is only one king, unless it is specified or fulfilled in history as such.

In the context of Revelation 17, it will mix and match these terms to show us exactly what each one represents. Some people will be adamant about a single person ruling and others will see a nation or movement. Revelation shows that Satan is out there to manipulate people through general ideas and followings, as well as specific leaderships. So don't get too hung up on things. 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Giller said:

 

So what is it you're saying? The beast is Syrian? Or Greek? The Pope is the false prophet? A revived Roman empire is the last beast Kingdom?

You really should write a conclusion, especially when you offer so much data.

[Diaste]

I thought I'd post a few logical points about the penultimate, 7th, kingdom and it's leader. This kingdom is not the last kingdom because Jesus sets up an everlasting reign after this. I want to dispel the notion that this next to last empire has anything to do with Rome, the Pope, a revived Roman Empire, or any other European group or nation. For clarity and accuracy I'm going to call this 'last' or '7th' empire, the Iron Kingdom as that's how it's described in Daniel 2. The idea that it's the 7th empire is not accurate. Rev 17:10 is describing kings that arise in succession giving a major clue to the identity of the leader of the Iron Kingdom. These 7 kings, and the 8th, are not related to the kingdoms of the statute in Daniel 2. To clarify, the statue represents empires, or kingdoms, and Rev 17:10 is speaking about kings; likely the kings that ruled in the Iron Kingdom, as the 8th king is 'of' the 7 previous, and of course the Iron Kingdom is the final beast empire ruled by the 8th king.

Two major reasons why Rome does not qualify as the Iron Kingdom.

One, the Iron Kingdom has to be diverse from the other three. Rome mirrored Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. The governments were civil, ruled by emperors, engaged in trade, treaties, and alliances for protection, peace and commerce. Just like most governments today. Rome, for instance, was probably the most tolerant of all when it came to personal freedoms, on par with Babylonian culture which stressed,      "Babylonian documents indicate that the ethical and moral beliefs of the people stressed goodness and truth, law and order, justice and freedom, wisdom and learning, and courage and loyalty. Mercy and compassion were espoused, and special protection was accorded widows, orphans, refugees, the poor, and the oppressed. Immoral and unethical acts were considered transgressions against the gods and the divine order and were believed to be punished by the gods accordingly. No one was considered to be without sin, and therefore all suffering was held to be deserved. The proper course for Babylonians unhappy with their condition in life was not to argue and complain but to plead and wail, to lament and confess their inevitable sins and failings before their personal god, who acted as their mediator in the assembly of the great gods." http://autocww2.colorado.edu/~toldy2/E64ContentFiles/ReligiousGroups/BabylonianReligion.htm

 Cyrus declared religious freedom after conquering Babylon. This declaration influenced Alexander and the religious and personal freedom in the Greek empire.  The Iron Kingdom is going to be different from these three as stated in scripture (Dan 7:7). How is it different? We could start with the dearth of personal and religious freedom. Instead of civil governance it would be based on religious ideology. Instead of peace and commerce, conversion to the reigning ideology is the driving force. But there are other differences serving as solid evidence identifying this last kingdom. A kingdom that has existed and has now reformed.

Two, the Iron Kingdom must arise from one of the four 'notable ones', kings or kingdoms, replacing the Greek empire. This is not Rome. Rome already existed at the time of Alexander and the fall of the Grecian Empire and therefore did not come from Greece. Let me explain; The little horn comes from the four notable horns that came up after the great horn (Alexander) was broken, out of one of these comes the little horn. We all understand the little horn is the beast, and this beast rules the last beast empire. That means there are four areas from whence the beast cometh. The four notable kingdoms after Alexander are: Greece, Asia Minor, The Seleucid Empire (Mediterranean to the Indus), and Egypt. A revived Roman Empire has no part to play.

Since a Roman Empire is out of the picture, and Daniel 11 recounts the acts of the Seleucid Empire, and continues right up the willful king that commits the A of D, then we are looking for another king and empire. Lets look at a comparison.

The Iron Kingdom of Daniel 2

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The traits I'll call attention to are: Made mostly of iron, breaking, bruising, divided yet strong, partly strong partly broken, and mingling but not cleaving.

There is another description.

The Terrible Beast of Daniel 7

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Some of the same traits are seen here: Iron teeth, devouring, breaking and stomping the pieces. I'm not trying to prove these two descriptions are the beast kingdom, we already know that. I'm trying to show the parallels between the description of the beast kingdom and an empire that existed in the past and has reformed. And that kingdom is Islam. If one were to read the history of Islam, and listen to the lectures on the history of Islam, and do internet searches, reading sites that are not Wiki, on the history of Islam, one would see these descriptions from Daniel fit the actions of Islam perfectly. I'm not going to get into that here, it's better if you search it yourself. But if you watched the news over the last few years you'd have seen Islam breaking in pieces and stomping the residue. 

Another point about the actions of Islam in reference to Daniel 2. These radical jihadists of IS, adherents to sharia law and loyalists to Baghdadi, infiltrate and mingle with people all over the world. To emigrate they mix with with actual refugees in order to move around the world. Once in other countries Muslim communities band together yet take advantage of all the benefits of the host country, all the while demanding civil change to fit the Islamic ideology. This isn't every Muslim in the world doing this but it doesn't matter; the radicals are the driving force and they fit the biblical narrative exactly, mingling but not cleaving.

The idea of divided but strong is a hallmark of IS and radical Islam. Many nationalities make up the ranks of IS. This is the clay. IS molds the youth of the earth with slick rhetoric and false promises, enticing them to join. Perfect fulfillment of the potters clay in Dan 2:41. The strength of iron is the ideology of Islam. As we see, IS is determined, cohesive and powerful, running amok in many countries because of their iron like ideology. This ideology is imbued into the potters clay just as Dan 2:41 demands. Another perfect fit.

So Rome is out as it cannot put on these prophetic shoes. We have an entity that exists fulfilling prophecy today. If Rome wants in on this they better get on it, time is running out.