pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[Last Daze]

5 minutes ago, Ezra said:

True. It's interesting to note that the OP has uncovered the fact that more people believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture than otherwise. Yet the term "fake" is there, which is basically an insult.

No, it only means that more pretribbers were willing to cast a meaningless vote.

[MorningGlory]

5 minutes ago, Ezra said:

True. It's interesting to note that the OP has uncovered the fact that more people believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture than otherwise. Yet the term "fake" is there, which is basically an insult.

Yes, I noticed that.  Does this mean that all PreTribbers are deceived and spreading fake ideas?

[MorningGlory]

On 3/22/2016 at 10:12 AM, Last Daze said:

No, it only means that more pretribbers were willing to cast a meaningless vote.

I wouldn't call it meaningless; it shows that the PreTrib view is predominant.  Doesn't prove it's the correct one, just that more believers hold that view than others.

[Ezra]

4 hours ago, MorningGlory said:

Yes, I noticed that.  Does this mean that all PreTribbers are deceived and spreading fake ideas?

Whenever we quote Scripture properly and in context, but it contradicts another's position, it is called "twisting" (or "butchering") the Scriptures, and "faking" the doctrine.  Nothing to worry about.  If we have done our due diligence, people can accept it or reject it.  We live in a day when we can expect serious opposition to sound doctrine.

[n2thelight]

On Sunday, March 20, 2016 at 0:00 AM, worthy said:

DO YOU BELEIVE IN THE POST OR PRE TRIB RAPTURE

I believe in neither,Pre Mid or Post.We gather to Christ period,here on earth,where we were all meant to be,and where we shall be forever...The only way to get to heaven is if you die before said gathering...

 

In saying all that,I will say Post trib is the closest

[TrevorL]

Greetings Worthy,

On 20/03/2016 at 3:00 PM, worthy said:

DO YOU BELEIVE IN THE POST OR PRE TRIB RAPTURE

I could not vote as I do not believe in a pre- or post-tribulation rapture. Perhaps you should add a third choice "Do not believe in "a" or "the" rapture. Now to clarify, I take the term rapture to represent the idea that the faithful will be taken to heaven at the return of Christ. What I believe is that the faithful will be gathered to Christ at his return, and this will before the judgement on the nations.

A number of passages are relevant, but the following speaks of the resurrection and the faithful, that is those resurrected and those alive at his coming, are invited to hide themselves, to avoid the severity of God's outpouring of judgements on the nations:
Isaiah 26:19-21 (KJV): 19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Also the sequence of events is also governed by the following, that is the believers are judged first, before the nations:

1 Peter 4:17 (KJV): 17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I do not believe that this gathering will be in heaven and I believe that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is figurative language. I believe that Jesus returns to establish the Kingdom of God on earth for 1000 years, and he will reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4.

Kind regards
Trevor

[WilliamL]

12 hours ago, n2thelight said:

We gather to Christ period,here on earth,where we were all meant to be,and where we shall be forever...

10 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I do not believe that this gathering will be in heaven...

Paul is quite clear about it:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire [i.e., Mount Sinai]... 22 But you [will] come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to a general assembly and church of the firstborn...

Read the whole passage: it is quite clear that Paul is saying that the first gathering of God's chosen people was to earthly Mount Sinai, and the latter gathering will be to heavenly Mount Zion.

[Serving]

On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 10:24 AM, simplejeff said:

Well, most people on earth never do.

Multitudes of others decide what to believe FIRST(((BEFORE reading the BIBLE))),

THEN they go read the BIBLE to prove it (((to PROVE((as if possible)) what they already decided to believe))

..... ((many teachers love that method - GET their flock to believe something first....... then tell them NOT to believe anything different , .... then they have them hook , line and sinker))

Sad but so very true in too too many cases .. seen it myself many a time.

[TrevorL]

Greetings WilliamL

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Paul is quite clear about it:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire [i.e., Mount Sinai]... 22 But you [will] come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to a general assembly and church of the firstborn...

Read the whole passage: it is quite clear that Paul is saying that the first gathering of God's chosen people was to earthly Mount Sinai, and the latter gathering will be to heavenly Mount Zion.

I appreciate your response, but I believe the initial gathering of the faithful before Armageddon will be on earth, and also the faithful will then share with Christ the 1000 years with him upon the earth.
Matthew 5:5 (KJV):  Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

The promises to Abraham include the inheritance of the land, not a promise to go to heaven. God told him to look N,S,E and W, and not to heaven for his inheritance.
Genesis 13:14-15 (KJV): 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

The prophets when read in simple terms, and in a literal sense speak of the future Kingdom of God on earth, and the following are a few basic prophecies, but many more could be quoted:
Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Daniel 2:35 (KJV): Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Daniel 2:44 (KJV): And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

But what about  "heavenly Mount Zion"? Will Jesus sit upon the throne of David in literal Jerusalem, as Isaiah 2:1-4 seems to indicate? The term heavenly has already been used for Abraham's inheritance:
Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV): 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Hebrews 11:13-16 (KJV): 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

The reason why Paul does not endorse Jerusalem and the temple that then existed, was because Jerusalem and the Temple was soon to be destroyed by the Romans. He even states:
Hebrews 13:12-14 (KJV): 12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. 14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

My suggestion based on all of the above is that Mount Zion is called "heavenly Mount Zion", not because the reward will be in heaven, but it will be in Mount Zion when it will be established by God, as Daniel 2:44 "the God of heaven". The Kingdom of heaven is the Kingdom of God on earth, in contrast to the kingdoms of men.

Kind regards
Trevor

Edited March 24, 2016 by TrevorL

[Last Daze]

8 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I appreciate your response, but I believe the initial gathering of the faithful before Armageddon will be on earth, and also the faithful will then share with Christ the 1000 years with him upon the earth.
Matthew 5:5 (KJV):  Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

I think its important to remember that those who put on immortality and are caught up to the clouds just before Armageddon are immortal at that point.  Of what consequence is time and space to an immortal?