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pre trib rapture is fake true or false


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pre trib rapture is fake true or false  

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  1. 1. pre trib rapture is fake true or false

    • Pre Tribulation Rapture Is True
    • Post Tribulation Rapture Is True

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 It will make me nuts until I figure it out.

Who knows, you may be the first!

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I believe Christ will come on the last day and that will be the end. He will gather the wicked first. I believe any one who quotes Daniel or Revelation concerning future prophecy does not understand apocalyptic literature. I believe Daniel is a letter to the Jews of 165 BC. I believe Daniel was a fictional character and the first six stories are similitudes.  I believe Revelation was written in two parts. The letters to the churches were added when the second part was added. First, it is a city of seven heads, ten horns, and seven diadems. The time of Nero. Then it is seven heads, ten horns, and ten diadems. The time of Domitian. Two provinces had split in two and Rome added a third province.

 In the future I expect the left to mock Christianity. They will say where is he? Why are you still here? You said he would come within a generation of Israel becoming a state--40 years since 1948(nothing), 2018 70 years since 1948(nothing)and come 120 years later 2068 (there will be nothing). And the mocking will begin and Christians will look foolish because they believed this lie. And the Father of lies will be laughing. As Christ has stated, will he find faith when he returns??. Proselytizing will fall by the wayside. Because Christianity will look like a group of fools because our leaders eyes and ears have been closed to the truth.

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Hi Paradigm,

 

QUOTE :

We have to try to remove the 21st Century filters that we have and begin to see through the prism that the believers of the 1st Century did.

Most Christians read something about a last trump and naturally assume that the last trump must be the last trump. Most assume that it is the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Again, we have to pause and ask some questions. What kinds of trumpets were there? There were ones made from certain animal horns, the shofar. There were also silver trumpets that we are told about in the Torah.

REPLY : Yes but NONE of those circumstances EVER used the term last trump EVER .. so it is inapplicable to the unique and very suggestive useage of last trump.

QUOTE :

Numbers 10

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.

3 And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

4 And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee.

5 When ye blow an alarm, then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward.

6 When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys.

7 But when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm.

8 And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations.

9 And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the Lord your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.

10 Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the Lord your God.

So trumpets were blown for a host of reasons including the coronation of a king. They were blown in a war situation. They were blown to announce the new moon, festivals, etc.

REPLY : Nothing in this example pertains to the useage of last trump, nor was last trump ever used as a descriptive for those situations anywhere in the OT .. result : inapplicable to last trump meaning.

QUOTE :

We have to learn to understand the language of the trumpet.

1 Corinthians 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

REPLY : Again, never in the scriptures where battle trumpets were blown has last trump ever been used as a descriptive in those situations .. result : inapplicable to last trump meaning.

QUOTE :

Exodus 19:16

And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

Exodus 19:19

And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

REPLY : Singular trumpet peal, speaks for itself, result : inapplicable to last trump meaning which implies more than just one trump blast.

QUOTE :

Isaiah 58:1

Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

REPLY : Speaking of the sound of the VOICE .. result : inapplicable to last trump meaning which is an actual trumpet blast opposed to a voice.

QUOTE :

Revelation 1:10

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

REPLY : *AS* of a trumpet .. AS being the key .. result : inapplicable to last trump meaning.

QUOTE :

Revelation 4:1

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

REPLY : As above.

Friend, not one of those examples pertained to the last trump in context nor in relation .. the last trump is exactly what God means .. the very last trump, the 7th within a progression of accumulating wrath against Babylon the Great before Christ takes control where each prescription (judgment) is preceded by a trumpet blast. We also have to take into consideration that there were DIFFERENT SOUNDS for trumpet blasts which also meant different things .. yet the moniker "last trump" never applied to any of those examples either. 

Regards. 

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13 hours ago, Sister said:

Ezra, Not all saints in the end times have been given the holy spirit. 

Jesus warned us that after his departure wolves will come into the flock preaching a different Christ, and a different gospel.  In the last days, many false prophets will come and we will see the fruits of the enemy grown to the full causing so many divisions in the Christian land.  Those false prophets came already causing divisions, they are men who started churches and new doctrines in the Christian land.  It appears the same from the outside, but when you look real close into it, they have twisted the scriptures to mean something else.

We are in those times now, where the wheat and the tares are growing together.  We need the holy spirit to get through all this and with so much confusion and division around, with the way people speak to each other and reject truth (Christians mind you),  there is no abundance of the holy spirit being poured out in the end times as much as you would all like to believe.  One has to actually walk the talk, be humble, and put Christ first in our hearts.  Loving the Lord and placing him at no. 1 is equivalent to putting the truth first place in our hearts, for he is truth.

John 14:6   Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So those Christians who are already dead, had their measure of the holy spirit, and will be in the first resurrection, but the last generation, at the end of it all when wickedness has grown to the full, I doubt you could say every Christian has the holy spirit in the last days, during the most evil of times, ....and those who don't have the spirit of truth will fall, because their foundation is made with tempered mortar. 

The tribulation is persecution of the saints from the "God of this world".  He hates them because he is full of wrath with hatred for God and his children, those who keep the commandments of God and the Lamb.  He has been given "permission" to put them out of the way, and God is going to try each and every one of us and give us one last chance to see if we can walk our talk when persecution arises to separate the true believers from the tares.  This is the sifting also.

 

The Tribulation is God pouring His wrath upon mankind who reject Christ...

Matt 24 is God pouring wrath upon the world... and it is called The Revelation of God to man written by John!

God gave His Son and they don't care to come to Him!
The Tribulation saints are those who are like the OT saints because after Rev 6 the Church is no longer mentioned any where... thus
one must leave the context of The Scripture to insert the born again believers into Revelation after this point! The division is there
and must be noted to properly frame what is being written...  Love, Steven

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On 4/8/2016 at 1:11 AM, Sister said:

 1 Corinthians 15:52   In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
 

When Paul said this, the book of Revelation was NOT OPENED YET.  It was not given to him to reveal to us how many trumpets there would be.  It was a mystery still for us.

Jesus opened the 7 seals, and revealed it to John who revealed to us that there would be 7 trumpets.

The book of Revelation is the "revealing", and ties all prophesies together new and old.  For the seals are now loosed.

We know from the book of Revelation that there are 7 trumpets, so the last trump is not maybe, but definitely the 7th TRUMP.

Now we know exactly what Trump Paul was speaking of, which he spoke in part.

It was not given to Paul to reveal this.  It was going to be Johns job, much later.  No dodging now.

 

The blast of the seventh trumpet in Revelation heralds a regime change, a day of demarcation.  It is the last day of Satan's rule when mystery Babylon is cast down.  And it is the first day of the day of the Lord which lasts for at least 1000 years.

The seventh trumpet sounds and Jesus descends to the clouds.  He then sounds the last trumpet, the trumpet of God.  The dead in Christ are raised immortal.  Those believers who are alive at that time are changed immortal.  Then we are caught up.

So while the seventh trumpet is the last in that series, the last trumpet which is known as the trumpet of God, is sounded by God, shortly thereafter.

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Just now, inchrist said:

Baseless opinion, the church is everywhere in revelation....

If one set of saints can make it through untouched by Gods wrath you really dont need to transport to heaven to escape it.

 

Show me after chapter 4

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5 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The Tribulation is God pouring His wrath upon mankind who reject Christ...

Matt 24 is God pouring wrath upon the world... and it is called The Revelation of God to man written by John!

God gave His Son and they don't care to come to Him!
The Tribulation saints are those who are like the OT saints because after Rev 6 the Church is no longer mentioned any where... thus
one must leave the context of The Scripture to insert the born again believers into Revelation after this point! The division is there
and must be noted to properly frame what is being written...  Love, Steven

Excellent :)

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12 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Structures of a church:

1 CORINTHIANS 12:28 (Paul)
28 And God has set some in the church first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healing, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Whos in the church?
REVELATION 11:3,6, 10
3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it does not rain in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
10 And those who dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another; because these two prophets tormented those who dwelt on the earth.
Prophets were found in OT and indication to reference is sackcloth... I don't know of any that practice this today in the church... Elijah, Moses on the signs being done....
so no specific to Church but suggested by context of other like OT saints...

Mt 23:35-37

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
KJV

Whis in the church?
(Revelation 16:6) "they have shed the blood of saints and prophets," Reference no way indicates NT Church

Whos in the church?
(Revelation 2:10) "you shall have tribulation ten days: be faithful to death," This is not after Rev chapter 4
(Revelation 6:9) "I saw under the altar the souls of those who were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:" This does not reference specific to Church!

Would you like more?
Haven't seen any yet and won't as scholarship agrees the Church is not seen after Rev 4 till Rev 19

Please note again good exegetical scholarship agrees with this statement that the Church is not seen from Rev 4 - Rev 19... Love, Steven

 

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5 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The Tribulation is God pouring His wrath upon mankind who reject Christ...

Matt 24 is God pouring wrath upon the world... and it is called The Revelation of God to man written by John!

God gave His Son and they don't care to come to Him!
The Tribulation saints are those who are like the OT saints because after Rev 6 the Church is no longer mentioned any where... thus
one must leave the context of The Scripture to insert the born again believers into Revelation after this point! The division is there
and must be noted to properly frame what is being written...  Love, Steven

Well said, Steven!

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10 hours ago, Serving said:

Hi Paradigm,

 

QUOTE :

We have to try to remove the 21st Century filters that we have and begin to see through the prism that the believers of the 1st Century did.

Most Christians read something about a last trump and naturally assume that the last trump must be the last trump. Most assume that it is the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Again, we have to pause and ask some questions. What kinds of trumpets were there? There were ones made from certain animal horns, the shofar. There were also silver trumpets that we are told about in the Torah.

REPLY : Yes but NONE of those circumstances EVER used the term last trump EVER .. so it is inapplicable to the unique and very suggestive useage of last trump.

QUOTE :

Numbers 10

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.

3 And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

4 And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee.

5 When ye blow an alarm, then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward.

6 When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys.

7 But when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm.

8 And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations.

9 And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the Lord your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.

10 Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the Lord your God.

So trumpets were blown for a host of reasons including the coronation of a king. They were blown in a war situation. They were blown to announce the new moon, festivals, etc.

REPLY : Nothing in this example pertains to the useage of last trump, nor was last trump ever used as a descriptive for those situations anywhere in the OT .. result : inapplicable to last trump meaning.

QUOTE :

We have to learn to understand the language of the trumpet.

1 Corinthians 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

REPLY : Again, never in the scriptures where battle trumpets were blown has last trump ever been used as a descriptive in those situations .. result : inapplicable to last trump meaning.

QUOTE :

Exodus 19:16

And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

Exodus 19:19

And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

REPLY : Singular trumpet peal, speaks for itself, result : inapplicable to last trump meaning which implies more than just one trump blast.

QUOTE :

Isaiah 58:1

Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

REPLY : Speaking of the sound of the VOICE .. result : inapplicable to last trump meaning which is an actual trumpet blast opposed to a voice.

QUOTE :

Revelation 1:10

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

REPLY : *AS* of a trumpet .. AS being the key .. result : inapplicable to last trump meaning.

QUOTE :

Revelation 4:1

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

REPLY : As above.

Friend, not one of those examples pertained to the last trump in context nor in relation .. the last trump is exactly what God means .. the very last trump, the 7th within a progression of accumulating wrath against Babylon the Great before Christ takes control where each prescription (judgment) is preceded by a trumpet blast. We also have to take into consideration that there were DIFFERENT SOUNDS for trumpet blasts which also meant different things .. yet the moniker "last trump" never applied to any of those examples either. 

Regards. 

Serving, you might want to slow down and go back and read what I wrote and what I didn't write. My words speak for themselves. It seems that your responses are to things for the most part that I did not write. I could take the time to try to clarify and explain more, but I don't know that it would be all that fruitful at this point. 

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