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Rethinking the Rapture


JohnD

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2 hours ago, missmuffet said:

The rapture of the church is the event in which God “snatches away” all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period.

That is one theory, but as you know, the Bible makes no statement that this event takes place before the tribulation. It is not honest, therefore, to mislead people who may think that this is a Bible teaching. You can honestly suggest that the rapture is an event, wherein The Lord will return, to catch up His church, but when a person suggests that the rapture is an event which takes place before the tribulation, one has left the reservation of sound exegesis, and have engaged in speculation.

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4 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

That is one theory, but as you know, the Bible makes no statement that this event takes place before the tribulation. It is not honest, therefore, to mislead people who may think that this is a Bible teaching. You can honestly suggest that the rapture is an event, wherein The Lord will return, to catch up His church, but when a person suggests that the rapture is an event which takes place before the tribulation, one has left the reservation of sound exegesis, and have engaged in speculation.

Yes, I do think that is what the Bible teaches. That is what I see. That Jesus Christ will catch up the Church before the seven year tribulation. It is not speculation to me. Is  Post tribulation speculation to you?

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1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

Yes, I do think that is what the Bible teaches. That is what I see. That Jesus Christ will catch up the Church before the seven year tribulation. It is not speculation to me. Is  Post tribulation speculation to you?

Yes, absolutely, the post-tribulation rapture theory is speculation. I do not claim that the rapture is defined as the "time when Christ does . . . ", I see it is what Christ does (not when He does it), He catches up His church. I do that, because the Bible says that is what He will do. Whether is it pre, mid, or post, is theory - it is interpretation.

I like to take the Bible at it's word, so I prefer to make a distinction between what the Bible says, and what I think it implies. That being said, yes, I have a theory, but I am able to understand that what the Bible actually, and what people try to make it mean, are not always the same thing. The rapture is a predicted event, pre/mid/post are just theories of people.

Where many differ (other that claiming that the rapture is when Jesus . . .), is that I prefer to just use what the Bible says, to arrive at my theory, instead of adding to what that Bible says, trying to make a theory that seems to work in a way that the evidence does not point to.

In fact, I made posts the outlined things that the Bible actually says:

and a thread about things it DOES NOT say:

So, missmuffet, I would ask you, could you make similar lists, that deal with actual facts - real Bible verses, instead of speculations and interpretations of what you think the Bible might mean. That (to me) is the difference in approaches, that cause me conclude that while I have a theory. At least I have a theory backed up with facts, instead of inferences and arguments from silence, that so many choose to employ.

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12 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Yes, absolutely, the post-tribulation rapture theory is speculation. I do not claim that the rapture is defined as the "time when Christ does . . . ", I see it is what Christ does (not when He does it), He catches up His church. I do that, because the Bible says that is what He will do. Whether is it pre, mid, or post, is theory - it is interpretation.

I like to take the Bible at it's word, so I prefer to make a distinction between what the Bible says, and what I think it implies. That being said, yes, I have a theory, but I am able to understand that what the Bible actually, and what people try to make it mean, are not always the same thing. The rapture is a predicted event, pre/mid/post are just theories of people.

Where many differ (other that claiming that the rapture is when Jesus . . .), is that I prefer to just use what the Bible says, to arrive at my theory, instead of adding to what that Bible says, trying to make a theory that seems to work in a way that the evidence does not point to.

In fact, I made posts the outlined things that the Bible actually says:

and a thread about things it DOES NOT say:

So, missmuffet, I would ask you, could you make similar lists, that deal with actual facts - real Bible verses, instead of speculations and interpretations of what you think the Bible might mean. That (to me) is the difference in approaches, that cause me conclude that while I have a theory. At least I have a theory backed up with facts, instead of inferences and arguments from silence, that so many choose to employ.

Time will tell.

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1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

Time will tell.

Ah yes, seems like I have heard this several times, and it seems like it is what is said whenever an opinion is expressed, but no Biblical response is offered, seems like there is a pattern there. However, you are right, time will tell.

I have no quarrels with the many here, who offer their opinions about how things will unfold in the end times. Where I take exception, and when I chime in, is when people inject their opinion as if it is the same as what the Bible actually says.

To make a comparison, outside of the topic of eschatology, let me offer an analogy.

Suppose, there is a Roman Catholic. Personally, I believe that if a Roman Catholic believes that Jesus was born to a virgin as a man, but is also the eternal Son of God, and God the Son, who died for sinners, was crucified, and rose from the dead, and believed that salvation is by grace . . . I would take no exception to those statements.

If they then went on to say, that Mary, the Mother of Jesus, lived a sinless life, and ascended to Heaven, and that people who are not quite good enough to make it to heaven, have to do some jail time in a place called Purgatory, I would disagree with their opinion. Where I would boldly speak out against against such statements, is when they cross over from their theory and try to convince others, that these ideas come from the Bible, when they do not.

To me, this is similar to what some people do with eschatology, they have a theory, and THEN imply that their theory comes from the Bible, when it us only theory not stated in the Bible - just as I said, inference and arguments from silence.

People are free to believe in a pre-trib rapture of the church, they are free to believe in Purgatory, but they should not expect me to let such ideas go uncommented upon when they claim they are an actual Bible teaching, not an interpretive theory with no substantial exegesis.

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28 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Ah yes, seems like I have heard this several times, and it seems like it is what is said whenever an opinion is expressed, but no Biblical response is offered, seems like there is a pattern there. However, you are right, time will tell.

I have no quarrels with the many here, who offer their opinions about how things will unfold in the end times. Where I take exception, and when I chime in, is when people inject their opinion as if it is the same as what the Bible actually says.

To make a comparison, outside of the topic of eschatology, let me offer an analogy.

Suppose, there is a Roman Catholic. Personally, I believe that if a Roman Catholic believes that Jesus was born to a virgin as a man, but is also the eternal Son of God, and God the Son, who died for sinners, was crucified, and rose from the dead, and believed that salvation is by grace . . . I would take no exception to those statements.

If they then went on to say, that Mary, the Mother of Jesus, lived a sinless life, and ascended to Heaven, and that people who are not quite good enough to make it to heaven, have to do some jail time in a place called Purgatory, I would disagree with their opinion. Where I would boldly speak out against against such statements, is when they cross over from their theory and try to convince others, that these ideas come from the Bible, when they do not.

To me, this is similar to what some people do with eschatology, they have a theory, and THEN imply that their theory comes from the Bible, when it us only theory not stated in the Bible - just as I said, inference and arguments from silence.

People are free to believe in a pre-trib rapture of the church, they are free to believe in Purgatory, but they should not expect me to let such ideas go uncommented upon when they claim they are an actual Bible teaching, not an interpretive theory with no substantial exegesis.

Yes, Omega I believe that the Bible teaches the pretribulation rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

I think we should extend each other grace on our differing of opinion on this. That is the best Christian way to handle this.

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4 hours ago, missmuffet said:

think we should extend each other grace on our differing of opinion on this. That is the best Christian way to handle this.

I like that you responded there missmuffet, with actual scripture. That is something that readers, can actually look at, and see if the Bible is saying what we might thing it says.

  13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I think that most Bible readers, who are familiar with the concept of the rapture of the church, will see the application of these verses. For example, we see that Paul is instructing the Thessalonian believers, that just as Jesus died, and rose again (v 14) that also God will bring with Him the Christians who have died (fallen asleep in Jesus). In verse 15, Paul notes that by the Lords own words, that there will be two groups of people, at the coming of the Lord. We could speculate here, about whether there is a rapture of the church, which happens before the tribulation, and a separate coming where Jesus will return after the tribulation, as pre-trib rapturists typically maintain.

So, is there a pre-trib rapture here that Paul is alluding to, but has not explained? If so, why would he not make that clear, and what do we suppose Paul meant, when he said those who will be alive at His coming, will be so, according to the Lord's own word? We could speculate here (we have to) because Paul did not explain that.

One possibility, is that Jesus revealed something to Paul, that Paul is not going into detail about (however the Bible does not say any such thing). Another possibility, is that Paul is referring to something that Jesus said to the disciples, that Paul knows about, and is passing on to the Thessalonians.

For example, we could look at Matt 24 where Jesus says:

30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

In that passage,  we see that Jesus will indeed appear in the sky, and that the elect, the chosen, will be gathered. There will be a trumpet, and clouds, things that are mentioned in other passages that everyone seem to agree, describe events concerning the  rapture. Can I prove this is the case? No, I cannot. However, it could or may not be an allusionn to the rapture. Where we agree, is that in this case, we see that Jesus will return, and there will be a gathering, so that part is scriptural. In a pre-trib rapture scenario, we can only speculate the Jesus may return, in this Matt 24 passage, we see with certainly, that Jesus will return. That is a big difference.

Now, what we also see, in the Matt 24 passage, about this visible coming to gather the elect, is that the timing is given explicitly, in verse 29:

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

So, we have it on the Lords own word, the Bible's own word, that Jesus will come, after the tribulation, and there is no doubt, not like a pre-trib rapture, where we only speculate.

So, how does this tie in with your Thess passage, or does it?

1 Thess 4:
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 

So, this fits the idea of the Lord's own word, Matt 24 - check
It also says that those who are alive at His coming, will not be first, but that those who are dead in Christ, will be first. More on that in a moment.
Matt 24 - 1 Thess 4  A shout mentioned - check
Matt 24 - 1 Thess 4  An angel mentioned - check
Matt 24 - 1 Thess 4  A trumpet mentioned - check
Matt 24 - 1 Thess 4  Some clouds mentioned - check

One might almost get the idea of some sort of pattern, probably just a coincidence, designed to mislead post-tribbers.
However, too bad that other thing mentioned, in 1 Thess 4, the part about the dead being raised before the living, that could have given us a clue. Oh, wait a minute what about this:

 Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Hmm, interesting. Here we have some people in (who are in the Millennium) who came to life, resurrected. We can see, that some of the people pictured here, were actually beheaded. Why? Because of their testimony of Christ - that makes them Christians. We see those who refused the mark of the Beast and refused to worship him. That places these people in the tribulation. Therefore, this scene is taking place AFTER the tribulation, unless there is some magic decoder ring that my Bible did not come with.

So, 1 Thess 4 says, that the dead in Christ are raised first, and Rev 20 says that the first Resurrection, is after the tribulation, then after that resurrection, the living are raised to be with Christ and the resurrected Christians.

Sequence implied:

Tribulation
Dead in Christ raised
Living Christians raised to join them and Christ
(If there is a pre-trib rapture there, it is not mentioned)

This, although just a speculation, a theory, it is a theory that fits with actual Bible verses of sequence, unlike a pret-trib rapture theory that depends upon events happening, that are not outlined in scripture.

We could go into the details of your other scripture passage, but that will not change things. They are dealt with in many other posts in these forums.

You said:

"I think we should extend each other grace on our differing of opinion on this. That is the best Christian way to handle this."

I certainly agree. That is why I treated you with respect, that is a Christian way to handle things. We also see that Jesus and the Apostles, were willing to explain things, to show from scripture, why certain things are so. One of the things that I think are a Christian virtue, is a devotion to the truth. Another, is to study the scriptures to see what is true, and to teach others. We might be wrong about what we believe, but any Christian who loves me, will want to see that I am not deceived, that I am not misled, and that I am not misleading others.

When a person has an opinion, which differs from mine, I want two things from them. I want them to show me where I am wrong, in love, and I want them to show others who read what I am saying, that I am wrong. To do less, is to disrespect me, the word of God, and fellow believers. So, I am going to have to agree to disagree with you in terms of our differing opinions, and I can do that in a way, that let's you know, that I care about what you think and believe. What I cannot do, is to allow us, either of us or any of us, to mislead others who are seeking to learn the truth of things.

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4 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Yes, Omega I believe that the Bible teaches the pretribulation rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

I think we should extend each other grace on our differing of opinion on this. That is the best Christian way to handle this.

Agreed on both points; while I may disagree with folks on the timing of the rapture ( am pre-trib as well), we are still brothers and sisters in Christ.

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13 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I like that you responded there missmuffet, with actual scripture. That is something that readers, can actually look at, and see if the Bible is saying what we might thing it says.

  13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I think that most Bible readers, who are familiar with the concept of the rapture of the church, will see the application of these verses. For example, we see that Paul is instructing the Thessalonian believers, that just as Jesus died, and rose again (v 14) that also God will bring with Him the Christians who have died (fallen asleep in Jesus). In verse 15, Paul notes that by the Lords own words, that there will be two groups of people, at the coming of the Lord. We could speculate here, about whether there is a rapture of the church, which happens before the tribulation, and a separate coming where Jesus will return after the tribulation, as pre-trib rapturists typically maintain.

So, is there a pre-trib rapture here that Paul is alluding to, but has not explained? If so, why would he not make that clear, and what do we suppose Paul meant, when he said those who will be alive at His coming, will be so, according to the Lord's own word? We could speculate here (we have to) because Paul did not explain that.

One possibility, is that Jesus revealed something to Paul, that Paul is not going into detail about (however the Bible does not say any such thing). Another possibility, is that Paul is referring to something that Jesus said to the disciples, that Paul knows about, and is passing on to the Thessalonians.

For example, we could look at Matt 24 where Jesus says:

30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

In that passage,  we see that Jesus will indeed appear in the sky, and that the elect, the chosen, will be gathered. There will be a trumpet, and clouds, things that are mentioned in other passages that everyone seem to agree, describe events concerning the  rapture. Can I prove this is the case? No, I cannot. However, it could or may not be an allusionn to the rapture. Where we agree, is that in this case, we see that Jesus will return, and there will be a gathering, so that part is scriptural. In a pre-trib rapture scenario, we can only speculate the Jesus may return, in this Matt 24 passage, we see with certainly, that Jesus will return. That is a big difference.

Now, what we also see, in the Matt 24 passage, about this visible coming to gather the elect, is that the timing is given explicitly, in verse 29:

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

So, we have it on the Lords own word, the Bible's own word, that Jesus will come, after the tribulation, and there is no doubt, not like a pre-trib rapture, where we only speculate.

So, how does this tie in with your Thess passage, or does it?

1 Thess 4:
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 

So, this fits the idea of the Lord's own word, Matt 24 - check
It also says that those who are alive at His coming, will not be first, but that those who are dead in Christ, will be first. More on that in a moment.
Matt 24 - 1 Thess 4  A shout mentioned - check
Matt 24 - 1 Thess 4  An angel mentioned - check
Matt 24 - 1 Thess 4  A trumpet mentioned - check
Matt 24 - 1 Thess 4  Some clouds mentioned - check

One might almost get the idea of some sort of pattern, probably just a coincidence, designed to mislead post-tribbers.
However, too bad that other thing mentioned, in 1 Thess 4, the part about the dead being raised before the living, that could have given us a clue. Oh, wait a minute what about this:

 Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Hmm, interesting. Here we have some people in (who are in the Millennium) who came to life, resurrected. We can see, that some of the people pictured here, were actually beheaded. Why? Because of their testimony of Christ - that makes them Christians. We see those who refused the mark of the Beast and refused to worship him. That places these people in the tribulation. Therefore, this scene is taking place AFTER the tribulation, unless there is some magic decoder ring that my Bible did not come with.

So, 1 Thess 4 says, that the dead in Christ are raised first, and Rev 20 says that the first Resurrection, is after the tribulation, then after that resurrection, the living are raised to be with Christ and the resurrected Christians.

Sequence implied:

Tribulation
Dead in Christ raised
Living Christians raised to join them and Christ
(If there is a pre-trib rapture there, it is not mentioned)

This, although just a speculation, a theory, it is a theory that fits with actual Bible verses of sequence, unlike a pret-trib rapture theory that depends upon events happening, that are not outlined in scripture.

We could go into the details of your other scripture passage, but that will not change things. They are dealt with in many other posts in these forums.

You said:

"I think we should extend each other grace on our differing of opinion on this. That is the best Christian way to handle this."

I certainly agree. That is why I treated you with respect, that is a Christian way to handle things. We also see that Jesus and the Apostles, were willing to explain things, to show from scripture, why certain things are so. One of the things that I think are a Christian virtue, is a devotion to the truth. Another, is to study the scriptures to see what is true, and to teach others. We might be wrong about what we believe, but any Christian who loves me, will want to see that I am not deceived, that I am not misled, and that I am not misleading others.

When a person has an opinion, which differs from mine, I want two things from them. I want them to show me where I am wrong, in love, and I want them to show others who read what I am saying, that I am wrong. To do less, is to disrespect me, the word of God, and fellow believers. So, I am going to have to agree to disagree with you in terms of our differing opinions, and I can do that in a way, that let's you know, that I care about what you think and believe. What I cannot do, is to allow us, either of us or any of us, to mislead others who are seeking to learn the truth of things.

Very good exposition on these verses. This correlation is one of the main ones that drove me away from pre-trib years ago.

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9 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I like that you responded there missmuffet, with actual scripture. That is something that readers, can actually look at, and see if the Bible is saying what we might thing it says.

  13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I think that most Bible readers, who are familiar with the concept of the rapture of the church, will see the application of these verses. For example, we see that Paul is instructing the Thessalonian believers, that just as Jesus died, and rose again (v 14) that also God will bring with Him the Christians who have died (fallen asleep in Jesus). In verse 15, Paul notes that by the Lords own words, that there will be two groups of people, at the coming of the Lord. We could speculate here, about whether there is a rapture of the church, which happens before the tribulation, and a separate coming where Jesus will return after the tribulation, as pre-trib rapturists typically maintain.

So, is there a pre-trib rapture here that Paul is alluding to, but has not explained? If so, why would he not make that clear, and what do we suppose Paul meant, when he said those who will be alive at His coming, will be so, according to the Lord's own word? We could speculate here (we have to) because Paul did not explain that.

One possibility, is that Jesus revealed something to Paul, that Paul is not going into detail about (however the Bible does not say any such thing). Another possibility, is that Paul is referring to something that Jesus said to the disciples, that Paul knows about, and is passing on to the Thessalonians.

For example, we could look at Matt 24 where Jesus says:

30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

In that passage,  we see that Jesus will indeed appear in the sky, and that the elect, the chosen, will be gathered. There will be a trumpet, and clouds, things that are mentioned in other passages that everyone seem to agree, describe events concerning the  rapture. Can I prove this is the case? No, I cannot. However, it could or may not be an allusionn to the rapture. Where we agree, is that in this case, we see that Jesus will return, and there will be a gathering, so that part is scriptural. In a pre-trib rapture scenario, we can only speculate the Jesus may return, in this Matt 24 passage, we see with certainly, that Jesus will return. That is a big difference.

Now, what we also see, in the Matt 24 passage, about this visible coming to gather the elect, is that the timing is given explicitly, in verse 29:

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

So, we have it on the Lords own word, the Bible's own word, that Jesus will come, after the tribulation, and there is no doubt, not like a pre-trib rapture, where we only speculate.

So, how does this tie in with your Thess passage, or does it?

1 Thess 4:
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 

So, this fits the idea of the Lord's own word, Matt 24 - check
It also says that those who are alive at His coming, will not be first, but that those who are dead in Christ, will be first. More on that in a moment.
Matt 24 - 1 Thess 4  A shout mentioned - check
Matt 24 - 1 Thess 4  An angel mentioned - check
Matt 24 - 1 Thess 4  A trumpet mentioned - check
Matt 24 - 1 Thess 4  Some clouds mentioned - check

One might almost get the idea of some sort of pattern, probably just a coincidence, designed to mislead post-tribbers.
However, too bad that other thing mentioned, in 1 Thess 4, the part about the dead being raised before the living, that could have given us a clue. Oh, wait a minute what about this:

 Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Hmm, interesting. Here we have some people in (who are in the Millennium) who came to life, resurrected. We can see, that some of the people pictured here, were actually beheaded. Why? Because of their testimony of Christ - that makes them Christians. We see those who refused the mark of the Beast and refused to worship him. That places these people in the tribulation. Therefore, this scene is taking place AFTER the tribulation, unless there is some magic decoder ring that my Bible did not come with.

So, 1 Thess 4 says, that the dead in Christ are raised first, and Rev 20 says that the first Resurrection, is after the tribulation, then after that resurrection, the living are raised to be with Christ and the resurrected Christians.

Sequence implied:

Tribulation
Dead in Christ raised
Living Christians raised to join them and Christ
(If there is a pre-trib rapture there, it is not mentioned)

This, although just a speculation, a theory, it is a theory that fits with actual Bible verses of sequence, unlike a pret-trib rapture theory that depends upon events happening, that are not outlined in scripture.

We could go into the details of your other scripture passage, but that will not change things. They are dealt with in many other posts in these forums.

You said:

"I think we should extend each other grace on our differing of opinion on this. That is the best Christian way to handle this."

I certainly agree. That is why I treated you with respect, that is a Christian way to handle things. We also see that Jesus and the Apostles, were willing to explain things, to show from scripture, why certain things are so. One of the things that I think are a Christian virtue, is a devotion to the truth. Another, is to study the scriptures to see what is true, and to teach others. We might be wrong about what we believe, but any Christian who loves me, will want to see that I am not deceived, that I am not misled, and that I am not misleading others.

When a person has an opinion, which differs from mine, I want two things from them. I want them to show me where I am wrong, in love, and I want them to show others who read what I am saying, that I am wrong. To do less, is to disrespect me, the word of God, and fellow believers. So, I am going to have to agree to disagree with you in terms of our differing opinions, and I can do that in a way, that let's you know, that I care about what you think and believe. What I cannot do, is to allow us, either of us or any of us, to mislead others who are seeking to learn the truth of things.

You believe what you believe. You see the Post tribulation rapture theory. I am not going to tell you that you are wrong. I did tell you that "time will tell". That is short and to the point. I have never posted false doctrine Omega and you know that. I have only posted the true literal Word of God and how I see it. When the rapture is going to happen is not something we have to divide over.

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