other one Posted January 16, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,043 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,786 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2017 Obedience to what? That's the question..... old covenant laws or the new that promises eternal life. I say that if you do not love the Trinity with all your heart mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself, you will not escape the fires of hell? Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brakelite Posted January 16, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 977 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 641 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/15/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2017 11 hours ago, other one said: Obedience to what? That's the question..... old covenant laws or the new that promises eternal life. I say that if you do not love the Trinity with all your heart mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself, you will not escape the fires of hell? Period. You quoted two commandments from the OT. , Deut. 6:5 and Levit. 19:18 . Jesus said of these two commandments, Matthew 22:40 "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Seems to me that everything is connected. To my mind if you start throwing stuff out without good reason, you are dismantling something God Himself put together. Now I have heard most of the reasons under the sun as to why Christians do not have to observe the Sabbath. I listed many of them above. I fail to see any of them strong enough to convince me to tear a commandment out of the ten, particularly the one commandment that God has especially magnified as being the very one that sets people apart for Him. You see, anyone in the world could obey the other nine commandments, and someone unfamiliar with religion would never guess the identity of the God who wrote them. Baal could have written those 9 commandments, a log of wood set up by my next door neighbor could be given credit for it. But the 4 th commandment? The 4th commandment set Israel aside from every pagan idol worshiping nation around about them. The pagans had idols of various sorts. The Jewish people were blessed with something unique and very special. It was something which God intended they share with gentiles, for God always intended that all peoples should know Him. The pagan nations around Israel had their fertility rites, their initiations, their icons, their statues and idols. But Israel had a day. This day set them apart. But rather than share the Sabbath with others, Israel repeatedly ignored, neglected, or polluted it by introducing pagan practices into their religion. By the time of Christ they had moved to the other extreme and burdened the Sabbath with so many added laws and regulations the day had become a curse rather than a blessing. Jesus came to reveal how the Sabbath was intended to be kept and to free it from the encumbrances of legalism. To heal on the Sabbath was scandalous to the rabbis. They accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath, and because Jesus had such huge support and influence, it was partly through fear that the whole nation would begin ‘desecrating’ the Sabbath and of the subsequent judgments of God that the leaders of the nation sought to kill Him, “But a certain one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all nor do ye take account that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.” John 11:49,50, and that finally led to His crucifixion. Jesus had numerous opportunities to speak of how the Sabbath was going to be changed or done away with. But rather than do this, all His debates and arguments with the rabbis were focused on how the Sabbath was to be kept. He defied the human traditions and yes, Jesus did break the Sabbath, He broke it free from the rigid guidelines that made it a burden, and a rigid formality. Christians were worshiping alongside Jews in the synagogues every Sabbath, but over a period of time Jews became less tolerant of this arrangement and the rabbis actually devised prayers that were to be said which exposed the Christians within the community. This made it very uncomfortable for Christians to continue meeting in the synagogues, but they did not forsake the Sabbath. They began to meet in their houses and in places like the riversides as Paul found in Thyatira. Eventually, Christians found it impossible to worship in the synagogues and about that same time found themselves questioning their connections to the Jews, and with good reason. Much conflict around the early second century between the Jews and Rome began to impact the church. Not wanting to be recognized by Rome as being sympathetic or in any way involved with the Jews, some Christians began to abandon the Sabbath in favour of Sunday, which became an attractive alternative. At this time also Sun worship increased in popularity with Rome. Mithra was particularly popular with the military, and Sunday became increasingly significant throughout the empire. Constantine established the first Sunday law in 321ad, and the church of Rome adopted that day as its own. As late as the 5th century however there were still a majority of Christian churches that were still observing the Sabbath. The church leaders in Rome strongly encouraged resting on Sunday in accordance to the law, while at the same time imposing fasts and other strictures on the Sabbath. Councils such as that of Laodicea in the mid 4th century recognized the continuing popularity of the Sabbath observance, and instituted canons to further enforce Sunday and demote the Sabbath. Churches that abandioned the Sabbath altogether however were very much in the minority, as attested to by Socrates scholasticus when he wrote in the 4th century “ For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.” Despite theological arguments, anti-jewish prejudice, and empirical decrees, the Sabbath was still honoured well into the 5th century. It was not dead. In fact, the Sabbath issue became a greatly heated debate between popes and patriarchs throughout the ensuing centuries, and became a test of authority. Sunday became the sign of submission to papal authority, and was a major cause of the great rift within the Christian faith that remained for 900 years. With that history in mind, let us forever lay to rest the idea that Jesus or the apostles, or the scriptures themselves for that matter, had anything to do with any change or annulment of the seventh day Sabbath. Let us, at least in this matter, agree with the Church of Rome that responsibility for such a change can be laid squarely upon her shoulders. For it was the leaders, the popes, cardinals and bishops of that church who down through the ages from the 3rd century to the present day deliberately exalted Sunday and erroneously named that day the Lord’s Day; meanwhile persecuting Sabbath keepers, labeling them, among other things as Judaisers and heretics, and have trampled upon the true Lord’s day and cast it aside. It remains for the Christian today to “choose this day whom ye will serve”. It is for you friend to decide upon whose authority your faith is surrendered to. The Creator of the “heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and all that in them is”, or the prelates and lawmakers of the Catholic church, the foster parents of the counterfeit day of rest and worship, the day of the Sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 16, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,043 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,786 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2017 You can say it was a quote but the Word calls it new commandment... Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek Me; and as I said unto the Jews, ‘Whither I go ye cannot come,’ so now say I to you. A new commandment I give unto you: that ye love one another, as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are My disciples: if ye have love one for another.” - John 13:33-35 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John13:33-35&version=KJ21 A new command Jesus himself says for like the other things he makes it a heart thing. Loving God and Loving our neighbor as ourself are the two new commands, there are a very few others such as being baptised and the few things that Peter carried over. Pushing the ten commandments is very dangerous to eternal security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a Mirror Posted January 18, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 237 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/27/1974 Share Posted January 18, 2017 On 1/14/2017 at 7:41 PM, brakelite said: If Jesus doesn't want us as Christians to keep the Sabbath day holy, what then is the alternative for that day? Because it was Jesus that made the day holy in the beginning. The commandment doesn't say that we are to be holy, but that we keep the day holy. And no-where is it mentioned in scripture that the day has been made "unholy" by God...thus the day is still sanctified...set apart...a holy day. It is still sacred...not because we make it so by our observance, but because the Creator made it so before the fall of Adam. Sin did not affect it...the fall did not affect it...and when God made a people to follow Him, His requirement for His people was that they keep it holy. That hasn't changed. Christians are God's people. The law hasn't been abrogated or altered, except in the minds of some that reject any obligation to obey it. It is true that we are to live holy lives 24/7/365 days of the year. Keeping Sabbath isn't about us being holy one day a week like you suggest above...it is about keeping the day holy. It's about the day, not us. If we choose not to obey the commandment....if we decide that the Sabbath is no longer to be observed, and claim we are permitted to do what we like on that day, then we desecrate the day, and by desecrating the day, we offend the one that made it sacred in the beginning. Concerning your second paragraph, I do agree in part; that without the aid of the Holy Spirit in us we can do nothing. But I would ask, to what purpose? Is it not as you said, to live holy lives? So how can anyone live a holy life if it does not incorporate obedience to God's commandments, including the 4th? Please quote me the verse in which Jesus commanded that the NEW covenant required keeping the law? Dont forget I said NEW. Herein lies my point. As individuals with an individual relationship, ie.. new covenant, with The Father, Through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, we are all called to a different mission. No longer do our neighbors condemn us, the Holy Spirit condemns us of sin from within. Then we recognize our faults, repent and turn from that sin. Therefore the LAW or Sacrificial Law, is finished completed by our savior. We should not judge our Neighbor, because we are not ignorant of the Truth, that each person is called for a different mission. Now I'm going to show you the answer to your Sabbath question. Found in Mark 2:23, I'm sure you know this verse. "The Sabbath was made for man, NOT man for the Sabbath." Do you remember, "become one with Me as I am one with the Father."? Become ONE, with the Son, who says, "Therefore, the Son of man is LORD of the Sabbath." Which one of you would not go out a save your neighbors livestock on the Sabbath? translation, "C'MON wake up people, everyday should be the Sabbath, don't be soo legalistic, are you saying the Sabbath will stop you from going out a doing good?" See, we are not under strict law because we already failed at that, time for Gods mercy to release us from the sacrifice. "I desire mercy and not a sacrifice." We are now living in mercy, mercy from the law, because now we have power over sin, no more sacrifice is needed. We become one with the Son, we are lords in our own rite, our own life, by His power. But like I said, everyone has their own calling, Sabbath keeping could be yours, but not everyone is you. Peace upon you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brakelite Posted January 19, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 977 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 641 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/15/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 19, 2017 17 hours ago, Just a Mirror said: Please quote me the verse in which Jesus commanded that the NEW covenant required keeping the law? Dont forget I said NEW. He commands us to follow Him, and He kept the law; our law keeping is a direct result of ur knowing Him...a fruit of righteousness, 2 Corinthians 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;) Philippians 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God. Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 19, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,043 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,786 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 19, 2017 7 minutes ago, brakelite said: He commands us to follow Him, and He kept the law; our law keeping is a direct result of ur knowing Him...a fruit of right actually he did not keep the law. Quote John 5:16-18 And for this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." 18 For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. NASB And if you read on through the rest of the chapter you should notice that he did not correct their thinking, but admitted that he was working on the Sabbath... The old covenant law was not given to gain eternal life, but to have a long happy life here on earth as one of Gods people. Jesus came and gave us a new covenant with new commandants that we are to follow if we are to attain eternal life. The only laws carried over to us were told us through Peter to Paul about the few things about blood, and adultery and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WailingWall Posted January 19, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 458 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/25/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 19, 2017 On 1/16/2017 at 10:09 AM, other one said: You can say it was a quote but the Word calls it new commandment... Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek Me; and as I said unto the Jews, ‘Whither I go ye cannot come,’ so now say I to you. A new commandment I give unto you: that ye love one another......... And how does the bible say that we are loving one another??? 2JOHN1 [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER.[6] And THIS IS LOVE, THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. Love one another. Keep the commandments JAMES 2 [8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF, ye do well: [9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. ROMANS 13 [8] Owe no man any thing, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.[9] For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[10] Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. I decided to show the scripture of James 2 and Romans 13 which explain to us how we are to show our love for one another because im sure the next thing i hear is that it is not the 10 commandments being mentioned. But as you can see in these scriptures, adultry killing, stealing, bearing false witness, covetness are mentioned. And i suppose i will hear you say that since the “keeping of the sabbath” is not mentioned or “thou shalt have no other gods before me" is not mentioned these commandments can be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a Mirror Posted January 19, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 237 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/27/1974 Share Posted January 19, 2017 1 hour ago, WailingWall said: And how does the bible say that we are loving one another??? 2JOHN1 [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER.[6] And THIS IS LOVE, THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. Love one another. Keep the commandments JAMES 2 [8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF, ye do well: [9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. ROMANS 13 [8] Owe no man any thing, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.[9] For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[10] Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. I decided to show the scripture of James 2 and Romans 13 which explain to us how we are to show our love for one another because im sure the next thing i hear is that it is not the 10 commandments being mentioned. But as you can see in these scriptures, adultry killing, stealing, bearing false witness, covetness are mentioned. And i suppose i will hear you say that since the “keeping of the sabbath” is not mentioned or “thou shalt have no other gods before me" is not mentioned these commandments can be ignored. Here is a question which you shall give answer, Is a man saved who does not keep the sabbath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 19, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,043 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,786 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 19, 2017 1 hour ago, WailingWall said: And how does the bible say that we are loving one another??? as I have written before, I think you will find that partially in the second half of Matthew chapter 25.... kind of tired of posting it so look it up for yourself to see where I'm coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 19, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,043 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,786 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 19, 2017 18 minutes ago, Just a Mirror said: Here is a question which you shall give answer, Is a man saved who does not keep the sabbath? a man is not saved unless he lives the sabbath.... not remembering and do no work, but to live it and take on Gods rest. Jesus didn't keep it so why should I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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