Salvation Before Christ?

[Guest Robert]

On 4/21/2016 at 7:58 AM, Dallan Smith said:

You can judge and say I am of satan and that I am going to to hell, but Christ taught not to judge, and that judgment is his and no one else's. Just pray and ask God whether or not he was a true prophet. Either he is or he isn't and it's and it's kind of important to know whether he is or not. I love the bible, especially the gospels and know that what is written in the bible to be true, the book of Mormon teaches that the bible is the word of God and that the purpose of the book of Mormon is to build up the bible. 11 witnesses held the plates Joseph translated the record on, people saw the plates and knew them to be true, they never denied that they had seen an angel and that they had been shown the plates, even to two of them who rebelled against the church and fled from them testified to their deaths they had seen an angel. It's called The Book of Mormon because it was written by a prophet historian named Mormon around 400 AD and teaches of the inhabitants of ancient America and their dealings with Christ. Once their nation was destroyed God commanded him to bury the plates. It was brought about to prove that Joseph Smith is a true prophet and that he restored the church. After 100's of years failed theories of it's falsehoods have died and it still stands with millions who have found it to be true. It still stands and will forever stand. Many people bring up strange and weird "Mormonism" doctrines, when it's the Mormons themselves who don't believe in that, just because people quote the one time Joseph Smith gave his opinion on what "the mysteries of godliness" are, people suddenly think he was teaching that it was what we believe. I was born and raised in the church and none of us have any of those things in any of our religious manuals or texts, none of the members of this church have been taught those things. People got it from quoting notes a member of the church wrote during the King Fallot Sermon, which is not a declaration of our beliefs. Joseph Smith was speaking at a funeral, (King was a friend of Joseph whom he loved dearly)

Throughout all of the Bible God called prophets to correct their apostasy in a pattern where the people were righteous, then rebelled, then God called prophets to invite them to repent. This pattern happened all throughout history until the time of Christ. Christ corrected the apostasy and established his church but they even rejected him. After Christ died new apostles were called. When an apostle died new apostles were called. But then we suddenly can't tell what happened after 100 AD because they killed the apostles except for John and they changed the doctrines of the church and apostatized and created their own religion through emperor Constantine. Then in their counsels they put the bible together and included the four most popular gospels and threw away the rest. Then they voted on what was right and wrong. That is why a restoration was needed, to restore what was lost, teachings that had been lost, and misunderstandings to understand. The reformers came in middle ages to try and correct what was wrong with the churches, they didn't claim to be prophets but were wonderful men and women who tried to reform back to Christ's original church. This lead for the way for Christ to restore his church due to the big push for religious freedom, which would allow young Joseph as a 14 year old boy to be called as a prophet to restore Jesus Christ's church.

A mob of 300 Christians painted their skin black and murdered Joseph Smith and his brother and murdered hundreds of other Latter Day Saints. It's right in your very faces and you can't even recognize the truth. This is Jesus Christ's church and Jesus Christ is at the very head of our church, actively leading and guiding it and inviting all to find out whether or not it is true. Jesus Christ lives, and is at the head of our church. Read the Book of Mormon cover to cover and then pray and ask God if it's true. There's no harm in finding out if it's true, because it is true. You will see that Christ is the very foundation of our church and the head of our church he is everything, the beginning and the end. Peter James and John and John the Baptist and others restored the authority to baptize, confer the holy Ghost and much more by appearing to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and laid their hands on them and gave them authority just as the apostles gave authority in the Bible. Our church is ran by 12 apostles just like in the bible and has Jesus Christ as the head just like in the bible. Christ visits and appears with our apostles today and openly leads and guides the church. These things are true and I say them in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

 

" Many people bring up strange and weird "Mormonism" doctrines, when it's the Mormons themselves who don't believe in that, just because people quote the one time Joseph Smith gave his opinion on what "the mysteries of godliness" are, people suddenly think he was teaching that it was what we believe. " So then, Mormons ignore Joseph Smith's " Doctrines of Salvation " Vol. 1- 3 and they are not acknowledged by the LDS? And not just him, but they also ignore what was written by Elder Bruce R. McConkie in " The Millennial Messiah",  Elder Milton R. Hunter in the "Pearl of Great Price Commentary" and  George Q. Cannon (early member of the Quorum of 12 Apostles) in "Journal of Discourses"?

So, either these men weren't Mormons, or they were "weird" (BTW: In case you're thinking I'm making this all up, I can give exact quotes and page numbers for you). Yet they were elders; either they didn't know what they were talking about according to you, or you don't know what they said. And what they said corresponds with the whole issue of "men becoming gods'.

 

As to the comment on "judging": Christ also said "Do not judge by mere appearances, but judge by righteous judgment". Are you saying then that He contradicted Himself?

 

But let's get to the heart of this matter, and a question that examines the core of Mormon faith here:

 

Now, in the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23 says:

“For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” (emphasis mine)

So, can we agree then that the law of God is to perfectly love the Lord with all your heart AND perfectly love your neighbor, in order to merit salvation? And with that being the case, can we also agree that NO ONE but Jesus Christ Himself has achieved the perfection necessary for that salvation?

And according to the aforementioned verse from 2nd Nephi states then that God has promised to give His saving grace to those, who, despite their best efforts, have been unable to achieve the level of perfection necessary.

Now that the prerequisites are in place, do you pray for those going to hell 24/7? Do you spend your time helping the homeless, volunteering in soup kitchens or preaching sermons 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year? Or is there time for you to shower, eat, sleep, play and other little things in life? Those show that you are NOT "loving your neighbor perfectly", because you did those things instead of things that would perfectly love your neighbor; you actively chose to do these "not-so-holy" things" instead.

Nephi said in 2 Nephi that you are saved "after all you can do", and if you did ANYTHING but those things, then according to Mormonism...

 

...you wouldn't be saved.

 

And that's the thing: you would never be reassured that you have "done enough", are you? You're always worried that deep down inside, you somehow missed something and are now in imminent danger because your works didn't measure up enough.

 

For us who trust in Christ alone, that is where grace comes in: we do not have to be perfect (but the Lord expects us to walk with Him), because God has done the work on the cross through Jesus' PERFECT sacrifice.

 

Quote

 

" For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. " (Ephesians 2:8-10, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

 

 

This does NOT contradict James 2, but rather, dovetails perfectly with it:

 

Quote

"But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.  You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." (James 2:18-26, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

Paul says that grace through faith comes first, then we walk in that faith and perform works that the Lord made us for. James says that faith without works is dead, and that works are an evidence (not a "proof") of faith. They are examining 2 sides of the same coin here: that you are saved by faith, but that faith then bears the "fruit" of the works that God prepared for us to walk in.  When taken TOGETHER, it is a beautiful picture of a seed being planted, which takes root, sprouts and delivers a blessed crop planted by the Lord.

BTW: I cannot take credit for my question to you; Donall and Conall were the originators on this one:

 

Edited May 7, 2016 by RobertS
more spelling corrections... need a spellcheck with a brain

[omegalamed]

Before the Messiah Yahsua people came to Yahweh in faith, believing the covenant promise he made with Israel and all outsiders who joined themselves to the nation Israel. For before there was Jews there was Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It was a covenant made of faith and mankind believing in the promises of Elohim. He kept his word and mankind followed and believed in Him. Eventually mankind broke the law and kept breaking it because of our sinful nature, so Yahweh promised to send the Messiah to reconcile mankind back to him. This is the most beautiful of all promises given to mankind. 

Yes we will see Moses and all others who followed Yahweh, kept his Word, his commandments and lived in Obedience. Blessings to you, tc 

[MorningGlory]

On 4/21/2016 at 8:58 AM, Dallan Smith said:

You can judge and say I am of satan and that I am going to to hell, but Christ taught not to judge, and that judgment is his and no one else's. Just pray and ask God whether or not he was a true prophet. Either he is or he isn't and it's and it's kind of important to know whether he is or not. I love the bible, especially the gospels and know that what is written in the bible to be true, the book of Mormon teaches that the bible is the word of God and that the purpose of the book of Mormon is to build up the bible. 11 witnesses held the plates Joseph translated the record on, people saw the plates and knew them to be true, they never denied that they had seen an angel and that they had been shown the plates, even to two of them who rebelled against the church and fled from them testified to their deaths they had seen an angel. It's called The Book of Mormon because it was written by a prophet historian named Mormon around 400 AD and teaches of the inhabitants of ancient America and their dealings with Christ. Once their nation was destroyed God commanded him to bury the plates. It was brought about to prove that Joseph Smith is a true prophet and that he restored the church. After 100's of years failed theories of it's falsehoods have died and it still stands with millions who have found it to be true. It still stands and will forever stand. Many people bring up strange and weird "Mormonism" doctrines, when it's the Mormons themselves who don't believe in that, just because people quote the one time Joseph Smith gave his opinion on what "the mysteries of godliness" are, people suddenly think he was teaching that it was what we believe. I was born and raised in the church and none of us have any of those things in any of our religious manuals or texts, none of the members of this church have been taught those things. People got it from quoting notes a member of the church wrote during the King Fallot Sermon, which is not a declaration of our beliefs. Joseph Smith was speaking at a funeral, (King was a friend of Joseph whom he loved dearly)

Throughout all of the Bible God called prophets to correct their apostasy in a pattern where the people were righteous, then rebelled, then God called prophets to invite them to repent. This pattern happened all throughout history until the time of Christ. Christ corrected the apostasy and established his church but they even rejected him. After Christ died new apostles were called. When an apostle died new apostles were called. But then we suddenly can't tell what happened after 100 AD because they killed the apostles except for John and they changed the doctrines of the church and apostatized and created their own religion through emperor Constantine. Then in their counsels they put the bible together and included the four most popular gospels and threw away the rest. Then they voted on what was right and wrong. That is why a restoration was needed, to restore what was lost, teachings that had been lost, and misunderstandings to understand. The reformers came in middle ages to try and correct what was wrong with the churches, they didn't claim to be prophets but were wonderful men and women who tried to reform back to Christ's original church. This lead for the way for Christ to restore his church due to the big push for religious freedom, which would allow young Joseph as a 14 year old boy to be called as a prophet to restore Jesus Christ's church.

A mob of 300 Christians painted their skin black and murdered Joseph Smith and his brother and murdered hundreds of other Latter Day Saints. It's right in your very faces and you can't even recognize the truth. This is Jesus Christ's church and Jesus Christ is at the very head of our church, actively leading and guiding it and inviting all to find out whether or not it is true. Jesus Christ lives, and is at the head of our church. Read the Book of Mormon cover to cover and then pray and ask God if it's true. There's no harm in finding out if it's true, because it is true. You will see that Christ is the very foundation of our church and the head of our church he is everything, the beginning and the end. Peter James and John and John the Baptist and others restored the authority to baptize, confer the holy Ghost and much more by appearing to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and laid their hands on them and gave them authority just as the apostles gave authority in the Bible. Our church is ran by 12 apostles just like in the bible and has Jesus Christ as the head just like in the bible. Christ visits and appears with our apostles today and openly leads and guides the church. These things are true and I say them in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

 

I'm sorry but the Mormon church is a cult; you do not believe in the very basics of Christianity so I'm not sure why you would come to a Christian site and try to spread the false gospel.  I'm not saying this because I reject you but I DO invite you to read the Bible and come to Him. You may be sincere but you can't get to the Kingdom with that load of man made nonsense.

[RustyAngeL]

On 4/21/2016 at 9:04 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

First off, I have read the BOM. I have also read much of Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price, and have them on my bookshelf for reference purposes.

Actually, other then the America's aspect of the BOM, and the lack of any support from archaeology about those civilizations, and the lack of a DNA connection between native Americans and Israelites, I can set aside those fanciful speculations and just judge it on it's spiritual content. Some of that is quite good, although it does not always agree with Mormon theology, oddly. 

It is also, quite peculiar, that a man who claimed to be translating plates (that no one has seen) from reformed hieroglyphics (which no one has head of), would translate them into Elizabethan English, instead of the language of his own culture, 19th America. I smell a con. When you take a con man, and have him found a religion based on fiction, you  are inviting trouble and deception.

However, when getting into D&C and PoGP, one of which claim to be written (largely) by Joseph Smith, one would expect to see more harmony, and less contradiction, if a true prophet was actually involved.

So in short, no, that does not answer my concerns, which largely is, that a lot of well intentioned people, are being lead astray by the a non-Christian pseudo-church, presenting itself often, as not only being Christian (which is not true) but also as the only faithful representation of Christianity, also not true.

Dallan, read through some of the forum posts here, and get a taste of the true gospel, not one invented and filtered by Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Also, know that if you continue to promote the Book of Mormon and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, you may well find your activities limited here.

Amen! Omega.  Well done good and faithful servant.

[RustyAngeL]

On 4/21/2016 at 8:03 PM, Dallan Smith said:

If you read the Book of Mormon you'll see that God has always commanded his children to have faith in Christ, repent, be baptized, receive the holy ghost and endure to the end no matter what the time period. The Jews when translating the old testament removed any notion of Christ and changed the name Jehovah simply to God to destroy any notion of Jesus Christ so in our current bible's It appears that not much is spoken using Christ's name or salvation in the Old Testament. This is one of the reasons why the Book of Mormon is so important. Christ could have come at any time period while the earth is around but he chose 2000 years ago in a very specific place because that was the only place he could fulfill his purposes, and the only time the people would be wicked enough to kill their own God. So if you were born before or after Christ died for us doesn't make much of a difference. Does that answer your concerns?

Excuse me.  No one "killed our God.  God became man in the form of Jesus Christ.  Jesus said on the cross just before He died, "Father into Your Hands I commit My Spirit." No one killed Him, He did not die from Crucifixion, He gave His Life up freely, for us.  He even said no man takes My Life I give it up freely.  You might want to switch from the BOM to the Bible where you will get all the truth and not bit's and pieces according to a false prophet. The Bible needs no support from the Book of Mormon it stands all on it's own merit.

[kwikphilly]

Quote

. This lead for the way for Christ to restore his church due to the big push for religious freedom, which would allow young Joseph as a 14 year old boy to be called as a prophet to restore Jesus Christ's church.                                           posted by Dallan

I'm sorry fella ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you are most certainly welcome to this Worthy Ministry & no one is judging YOU,that is for GOD,not us but we do "know them by their fruits",,,,,,,,,,,,,it is your belief's that are being judged,rightfully so,they are very mixed up & I do hope that you will learn about the WORD of GOD here,not what anyone at your "church"  is telling you or interpreting for you

  First off you keep talking about the "church",as in what I quoted,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,WE,the believers are "the Church" the Body of Christ,,,,,,,,,with Jesus as our HEAD,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you claim that Jesus is your Lord & Savior?How? You keep talking about loving the "Bible" & what the book of mormon says about "IT"

Quote

I love the bible, especially the gospels and know that what is written in the bible to be true, the book of Mormon teaches that the bible is the word of God and that the purpose of the book of Mormon is to build up the bible.                                   posted by Dallan

   Why wouldn't you simply read it for yourself? If Jesus is your Lord & Savior & you are indwelled with His Holy Spirit wouldn't you want to read it & Receive His Truth? Pick up a KJV,an unadulterated translation,,,,instead of an interpretation & just READ IT.............................

[woundeddog]

On 4/21/2016 at 8:03 PM, Dallan Smith said:

If you read the Book of Mormon you'll see that God has always commanded his children to have faith in Christ, repent, be baptized, receive the holy ghost and endure to the end no matter what the time period. The Jews when translating the old testament removed any notion of Christ and changed the name Jehovah simply to God to destroy any notion of Jesus Christ so in our current bible's It appears that not much is spoken using Christ's name or salvation in the Old Testament. This is one of the reasons why the Book of Mormon is so important. Christ could have come at any time period while the earth is around but he chose 2000 years ago in a very specific place because that was the only place he could fulfill his purposes, and the only time the people would be wicked enough to kill their own God. So if you were born before or after Christ died for us doesn't make much of a difference. Does that answer your concerns?

Stratton-- Ignore this post, it is based on non-biblical speculation- the Book Of Mormon is not Gods word