Understanding the Final One Seven

[ghtan]

27 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Ah, no.  They don't regard him as a prophet because he was not in the land of Israel when he wrote down his visions and visitations.

Where was Ezekiel when he saw his visions?

27 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

And I'm not going to entertain any Preterist notion of A.D. 70 being such a cataclysmic event that it makes the highlight reel of the seventy 'sevens'.  The only point about having the destruction of the city and the sanctuary in what Gabriel said, was to point to the source of the person who is the central actor in the one 'seven', the often-referred to anti-Christ, who plays such a pivotal role in bringing about the end-times.

Why close your mind to the truth?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

53 minutes ago, ghtan said:

Where was Ezekiel when he saw his visions?

Why close your mind to the truth?

Ezekiel was not in exile and don't bother me with delusions of "truth".

[Retrobyter]

On July 12, 2016 at 11:36 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Roy, I know how Jesus fulfilled the Spring Festivals, or "Appointments with God," in an exacting literal fashion.
I know that the Fall Festivals will be fulfilled, but rather than 1:1, they serve as a template for the order that events happen with Jesus' Second Advent.

I agree with the assessment that the NASB makes for "most holy" adding in, as you do, 'place' to it - as Jesus clears the Temple of the Abomination when He Returns and the third Temple has a predominant role to play in the Millennium Reign of the Saints which will save 'all' of Israel.

However, I cannot agree with your assignment of Jesus to "winning" any Covenant which lasts only for seven years!
Nor can I agree with splitting up the one 'seven' with a huge expanse of time between its respective halves.

And those are two sticking points you might be able to accept in your thinking, but for me, they invalidate your whole take on things.
Sorry.  --Mark

Shalom, Marcus.

Okay! We're making progress in understanding! I agree with your assessment of the Fall Festivals and the Second Advent. I also understand your take on the Abomination set up in the Temple. I used to believe that way, too.

That, however, was before I realized how much of the Olivet Discourse is in the past. See, it's easy for those who don't know that so much was already fulfilled in the past to think those details must somehow be fulfilled in the future. Not everything was fulfilled in the past, mind you, and there are portions that have yet to be fulfilled, but there's a SIGNIFICANT amount that we should NOT anticipate being fulfilled anymore. And, the easiest way to distinguish between the two is the usage of the PRONOUNS employed (or implied in the verb forms).

You're probably already aware of this, but for those who may be reading along, Greek has MANY second-person pronouns translated as "you," "your," or "yours," in today's English. The old "modern English" of the 17th century - the "English of the 1611 King James Version of the Bible" - the "King's English" - used five other words: "ye," "thou," "thee," "thy," and "thine." This was a little closer to the Greek:

A table of the "modern English" of 1611 A.D. is here:

Second Person Pronouns
Singular:
thou = you (subjective form) "Thou shalt not kill."
thee = you (objective form) "I love thee."
thy = your (adjective form of the possessive) "Thy will be done."
thine = yours (predicate nominative of the possessive) "All that thou seest is thine."
Plural:
ye = you (subjective form) "Go ye into all the world..."
you = you (objective form) "All these things shall be added unto you."
your = your (adjective form of the possessive) "Love your enemies."
yours = yours (predicate nominative of the possessive) "All things are yours."

Here's a similar table for the Greek pronouns. For the Greek, we must also add in the declension's case:

Second Person Pronouns
Singular:
su = you (nominative case = subject)
sou = of you (genitive case)
sou = from you (ablative case)
soi = in you / at you (locative case)
soi = with you / by you (instrumental case)
soi = to you / for you (dative case)
se = you (accusative case = direct object)
Plural:
humeis = you (nominative case = subject)
humoon = of you (genitive case)
humoon = from you (ablative case)
humin = in you / at you (locative case)
humin = with you / by you (instrumental case)
humin = to you / for you (dative case)
humas = you (accusative case = direct object)

Because Yeshua` was specifically talking to His students - His disciples - His talmidiym, when He was specifically talking TO THEM about some future event near enough at hand for them to experience, He would use the pronouns "humeis," "humoon," "humin," and "humas."

Often in Greek, the verb used will also have the pronoun embedded within the ending. For instance, in the indicative mode and future tense,
1st person, singular ends in -soo (oo being an omega),
2nd person, singular ends in -seis,
3rd person, singular ends in -sei,
1st person, plural ends in -somen (o being an omicron),
2nd person, plural ends in -sete, and
3rd person, plural ends in -sousi.

Indeed, for many 2nd-person-plural modes, voices and tenses, the verb ending will be -te (tou epsilon) or -the (theta epsilon).

Therefore, by simply looking for these verbs and pronouns, one can find the places in which Yeshua` was speaking DIRECTLY to His students about something they would see in their lifetime. Whenever He gazed off into the more distant future, He would change pronouns or He would say something less direct, speaking more generically about the future. Anyone who has access to a Greek NT, a computer program that gets into the Greek and Hebrew, or BibleHub.com can look these up and check them for himself or herself.

[ghtan]

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Ezekiel was not in exile and don't bother me with delusions of "truth".

Do read Ezekiel 1:3.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

 

3 hours ago, ghtan said:

Do read Ezekiel 1:3.

Read Ezekiel 1:2 - he was already a Priest in Israel, something Daniel was not.

Again, the Jews do not count Daniel as a prophet at all.  Ezekiel is a major prophet by them.

[ghtan]

12 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

 

Read Ezekiel 1:2 - he was already a Priest in Israel, something Daniel was not.

Again, the Jews do not count Daniel as a prophet at all.  Ezekiel is a major prophet by them.

Are you making things up as you go along? Where in Ezekiel 1 does it say Ezekiel was a priest IN ISRAEL? Certainly not in 1:2 as you claim.

[Ezra]

12 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Again, the Jews do not count Daniel as a prophet at all.  Ezekiel is a major prophet by them.

It does not matter whether the Jews regarded Daniel as a prophet.  The fact that the Lord Jesus Christ regarded him as a prophet should suffice (Mt 24:15). This does not detract from Ezekiel in any way:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

[Marcus O'Reillius]

11 hours ago, Ezra said:

It does not matter whether the Jews regarded Daniel as a prophet.  The fact that the Lord Jesus Christ regarded him as a prophet should suffice (Mt 24:15). This does not detract from Ezekiel in any way:

Of course Daniel was a prophet, and one highly esteemed by our Lord.

But the Jews did not accept him as a prophet, so they probably weren't looking for fulfillment of the one 'seven' with the First Jewish Revolt.

Nor did that complete the one 'seven' - that is ghtan's point.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Serving]

On 22/07/2016 at 9:07 AM, ghtan said:

Presumably you would say 13:1-6 also relate to the end time. Then if v 8-9 is also end time, it means only v 7 in between belongs to Jesus’ first coming. That makes little sense. More likely, verses 7-9 belong together since NIV shows they are poetry whereas the surrounding verses are prose. I find it easier to read v 9 to mean the one-third that survived AD70 were dispersed so that they would be refined and call on the Lord.

As for the A/D, a comparison with Luke 21:20 shows that the reference is to AD70.

Hi ghtan,

I agree with your discernment re Luke 21:20 being fulfilled in 70ad.

Here is what some people obviously overlooked  :

Luke 21:8 false Christ's 

Luke 21:9 wars & commotions 

Luke 21:10 Nation v's nation & kingdom v's kingdom

Luke 21:11 earthquakes, famines etc

Luke 21:12 But before all these, (before those events just mentioned above happen .. they will :

Luke 21:13-19 THEIR coming tribulation BACK THEN where only SOME of THEM get put to death correlating with Matt 23, whereas the future mark of the beast tribulation sees MULTITUDES put to death.

Luke 21:20-21 THEM back then to flee when THEY see Jerusalem surrounded by armies = 70ad.

Luke 21:22 Days of VENGEANCE = vengeance against THAT GENERATION that rejected & killed Messiah = Matt 23-32-28 below :

Matt 23-32-28

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Without a doubt, Luke 21:20 was speaking about BACK THEN .. I agree.

YET, when modern Israel gets invaded by the false prophets armies, Israel gets TRICKED into letting his forces into their land (Isa 28:14-19), there is NO surrounding of Jerusalem for OUR TIMES soon to come, no .. but an opening of the gates as it were from Israel to let the enemy they thought were their friends in .. Israel COOPERATES with them but are DOUBLE CROSSED AFTER the fact (AFTER their friends are LET IN to THEN become their enemy once inside israel) !!!! NOTHING like Luke 21:20-21 at all is it .. so yes, you are correct to assume what you have discerned .. Luke 21:20-21 is fulfilled. 

[ghtan]

3 hours ago, Serving said:

Hi ghtan,

I agree with your discernment re Luke 21:20 being fulfilled in 70ad.

Here is what some people obviously overlooked  :

Luke 21:8 false Christ's 

Luke 21:9 wars & commotions 

Luke 21:10 Nation v's nation & kingdom v's kingdom

Luke 21:11 earthquakes, famines etc

Luke 21:12 But before all these, (before those events just mentioned above happen .. they will :

Luke 21:13-19 THEIR coming tribulation BACK THEN where only SOME of THEM get put to death correlating with Matt 23, whereas the future mark of the beast tribulation sees MULTITUDES put to death.

Luke 21:20-21 THEM back then to flee when THEY see Jerusalem surrounded by armies = 70ad.

Luke 21:22 Days of VENGEANCE = vengeance against THAT GENERATION that rejected & killed Messiah = Matt 23-32-28 below :

Matt 23-32-28

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Without a doubt, Luke 21:20 was speaking about BACK THEN .. I agree.

YET, when modern Israel gets invaded by the false prophets armies, Israel gets TRICKED into letting his forces into their land (Isa 28:14-19), there is NO surrounding of Jerusalem for OUR TIMES soon to come, no .. but an opening of the gates as it were from Israel to let the enemy they thought were their friends in .. Israel COOPERATES with them but are DOUBLE CROSSED AFTER the fact (AFTER their friends are LET IN to THEN become their enemy once inside israel) !!!! NOTHING like Luke 21:20-21 at all is it .. so yes, you are correct to assume what you have discerned .. Luke 21:20-21 is fulfilled. 

Hi Serving,

Nice to meet someone who share similar views. Interesting the way you brought in Mt 23; did not notice that before. As for the end time, are you thinking that Israel would be tricked into letting a foreign ARMY into its territory? Or do they come in in a different guise? Is there scripture that leads you to that belief?