the book of Jasher, should it be part of study ?

[JG Hemlock]

So I am curious here.... Why are all types of links allowed but I leave a link to a personal writing of my Holy Spirit meeting and it is removed? Did I miss something in the welcome package?

[kwikphilly]

Blessings JG

    It depends on what it is,,,,,,,,,putting a link up about a meeting can be a form of solicitation,,,,,,,,,,links for a reference pertaining to the Topic are different,the same as a Quote having copyrite permission,,,,,,,,,,these links are showing the source of information,there is no personal information,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is that what you're asking,you can PM me or a mod ,,,,let's try to stay on Topic,,,,                    Love,Kwik

[SINNERSAVED]

3 hours ago, 1to3 said:

Hmmmm ,,,,,,,,so I went to look up to find the book of Enoch and the book of Jasher.

 

I found for

the book of Enoch this site : http://book-ofenoch.com/download-pdf/

and for

the book of Jasher:  http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/1.htm

 

Contradictions?

 

well I just started with Enoch and found in Chapter 22 [SECT. V.]

 

1. From thence I proceeded to another spot, where I saw on the west a great and lofty mountain, a strong rock, and four delightful places.

2. Internally it was deep, capacious, and very smooth; as smooth as if it had been rolled over: it was both deep and dark to behold.

3. Then Raphael, one of the holy angels who were with me, answered and said, These are the delightful places where the spirits, the souls of the dead, will be collected; for them were they formed; and here will be collected all the souls of the sons of men.

4. These places, in which they dwell, shall they occupy until the day of judgment, and until their appointed period.

5. Their appointed period will be long, even until the great judgment. And I saw the spirits of the sons of men who were dead; and their voices reached to heaven, while they were accusing.

6. Then I inquired of Raphael, an angel who was with me, and said, Whose spirit is that, the voice of which reaches to heaven, and accuses?

7. He answered, saying, This is the spirit of Abel, who was slain by Cain his brother; and who will accuse that brother, until his seed be destroyed from the face of the earth;

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From my understanding this reading it is mentioning that all who die go to these places  for the moment until judgement

But does not the bible say: absent from the body present with the Lord?

I thought that Christian believers go directly to the Lord, and that non believer lie asleep until the time of judgement

 

And if Able is with the Lord, why would he be accusing his brother continually?

 

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please correct me if i am wrong but this to me show contradiction with thew Word of God.

---------------------------------

 

Also from just beginning to read the book of Asher?

Jasher 34 : And Cain knew his wife in those days, and she conceived and bare a son, and he called his name Enoch, saying, In that time the Lord began to give him rest and quiet in the earth.

 

Is this the same Enoch who wrote the book of Enoch?

***and why would God bless the son of Cain  (Enoch)to be able to understand the plans of God?***

Enoch writes about the watchers =fallen angels who went into the women of the earth and produced the giants who have become the evil spirits who have remained in this world to do evil things.

So was Enoch who wrote the book of Enoch the son of Cain?

 

 

 

personally,  what I would question, is  does this scripture apply now, or when you die  or when the redemption of believers are gathered, for there is a couple views on this and I don't think any one for sure can say this one hundred percent, for they are alive, and not seen this, and so it is a assumption, that many are taking as a stated fact, and so we must be aware of how this scripture really is placed,

I think that you do not go to heaven right away , and when the calling of the lord comes, and says the dead in Christ will rise first, then it will be  with the lord, this is what I perceive it to mean, and not what every one, even on the radio, ministry is saying,

 for much scripture today is taken out of its, proper place, and used to justify another motive,

1to3 said

From my understanding this reading it is mentioning that all who die go to these places  for the moment until judgement

But does not the bible say: absent from the body present with the Lord?

I thought that Christian believers go directly to the Lord, and that non believer lie asleep until the time of judgement

 sorry I wanted to also note, for what the bible tells us, is that we do know for sure, is there is two ressurections the first for the believers in Christ, and then after ward , those that are not in Christ, to the judgement, now where they are from the time we die , until the calling or gathering , of the souls in Christ, we really cannot say if it is still in the grave, in a place for holding,  as scripture tells and reveals, I will have to say , that we cannot know that part for sure, only that the believers will be redeemed and gathered with God, and the lost, or non beloiever to be gathered or raised to judgement , any thing else even with scripture, I would not see,  for no one is dead, and tells us what happens between that time,?

 so that to be absent of the body is to be present with the lord,  is  a solid scripture, BUT, we cannot say if it be immediately or when the gathering comes with the four angels, at the four corners of the heavens,

 we have a look about the rich man and lazuras, but we cannot say it is immediately or after we have been gathered,  but it shows where we do end up depending if we are saved or not saved.

so this is a really a stale mate question, I believe,  and that's my opinion, and what I believe the bible tells us .

blessings to you

 

[MorningGlory]

31 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

 

 so that to be absent of the body is to be present with the lord,  is  a solid scripture, BUT, we cannot say if it be immediately or when the gathering comes with the four angels, at the four corners of the heavens,

 

 we have a look about the rich man and lazuras, but we cannot say it is immediately or after we have been gathered,  but it shows where we do end up depending if we are saved or not saved.

so this is a really a stale mate question, I believe,  and that's my opinion, and what I believe the bible tells us

 

 

Actually the Bible doesn't tell us that.  Here is the actual Scripture:

If we aren’t careful, we might end up twisting Paul’s writings to our own destruction.

Instead, we must be critical about the text and examine it to see what it truly says. We see that the text in 2 Corinthians 5:8 does not say that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. One does not equal the other. Here is the entire passage in question so that we can understand the full context; from Truthaboutdeath.com:

“For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:1–8).

Paul likens our existing mortal bodies with an “earthly tent,” and says we should not worry if it is destroyed because we have a “building from God” that awaits us. The context does not support the claim that we will be in God’s presence without a body; rather, Paul simply says we will not have THIS body. He likens our bodies to clothing that we must wear. In verse 4, Paul specifically says he does not want to be unclothed (without a body), but rather further clothed (different body). That’s quite a different picture than a disembodied spirit that lives on after death!

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Morning Glory.....

    Excellent post!           Praise the Lord!                                           Love,Kwik

[1to3]

6 hours ago, OakWood said:

It's a different Enoch. Try reading the Book of Genesis.

Cain begat Enoch, begat Irad, begat Mehujael, begat Methusael, begat Lamech, begat Tubalcain

Seth begat Enos, begat Cainan, begat Mahalaleel, begat Jared, begat Enoch, begat Methusaleh, begat Lamech, begat Noah

 

As for Christians going straight to the Lord and Abel accusing his brother, well you need to read more of the Bible. Have you not heard of 'Abraham's bosom'? Also read the Book of Revelation, and don't forget that when Abel was murdered his blood cried out from the ground.

Thank you for your response.

 

About "absent from the body and present with the Lord'.

did not Jesus tell the criminal next to him who asked for pardon and His Mercy that as of today he would be with the lord?

Luke 23:43 …42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"

43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

 

From what I understand from scripture, Christian souls upon earthly death go back to God, the resurrection of the bodies comes later when Christ Jesus comes back  in the 2nd coming.

 

Also is it not written when Christ Jesus died a lot of dead souls were raised with Him?

Mathew 27:53

…52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

 

Did the dead just rise for the occasion and than go back into their graves? or are they in paradise with the Lord?

 

I in my own personal experience (which I really do not like to disclose on a public forum for reasons of ridicule and disbeleif )  but just to say, I have experienced sensing the soul depart from the body of someone dying. The body remains but the soul departs out of the body upon death.

Also when my mother had her -stroke- accident a lot of strange things happened. In the early morning 6a.m.ish of her accident, the awnings of one of my windows came crashing down, right next to where my mother had stood a few days before when I had taken a picture of her in that very same spot.  Also has I was driving to the hospital to see her, at an intercession light, from being totally nervous because of my mothers concerns all of a sudden from the top of my head to my solar plexus area, a sudden calm fell upon me and than I heard my mother say to me in spirit: its o.k. (my name) I am alright. By experiencing this I knew my mothers soul was now hovering out of her body. It had not yet departed but it was hovering out of her body. And this is how she connected to me.

I can say a lot more from what happened after my mom had her - fatal-stroke-, but I don't feel it a safe place hear to talk about  it, but I know what I experienced.

It was quite supernatural.

My mother in her final years was very much a bible believing Christian lady, she was the fist lady deacon appointed to the Pentecostal church she attended. (Now that does not mean much) but just to say she was a true believer in Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit did work in her.

After she passed, I read some journals of hers where she described certain dreams she had that came to be, namely her death and namely my moving to the country where i now live.

2 years before she died, she dreamt of the day of her accident and what would take place in the hospital.

Also she wrote a year before she died, that she dreamt of seeing me move into the country place and that she saw children she did not know helping me move.

And she wrote that seeing me move to the county was definitely not in our plans. It definitely was not in our plans, I had an active life and business in the city prior to my mothers passing. Moving to the country was definitely not in my plans either.

About the children she saw that she did not know in her dream of me moving to the country. This did happen, children from a Pastor came to help me move out certain things. My mother had never met that pastor nor his children

More weird unexplained things happened, but if I explain them here, I will probably be mocked or told was I experienced were demons or such.

Suffice it to say ,I know the things that I experienced were supernatural and they greatly assured me that life continues after death.

 

My mothers body may be in the grave, but her soul/spirit is with the Lord. And I have no problem in accepting we be soul/spirits without a body but in the presence of the Lord until Christ second resurrection time, when the bodies of the dead in Christ shall arise .  

 

As for those who dead but not in Christ? Yes perhaps likely their spirit soul are held asleep in a certain place that is different from those that are dead in Christ.

 

 

 

[SINNERSAVED]

one thing I learned studying the bible, and going through life with all of our experiences and questions, and thoughts,

 it is , unusual for some things and then we see other things and wonder, what  is the answer to some of the questions, and how ,?

 do some people know and some don't ?  and we also ask God in our lives why to some things and  say , scripture is saying this , but ,

some times we see that what we taught  scripture was saying , may have another meaning or more then one meaning,

 but then when we have scripture we need to see what its interpretation, is , and try to figure it out,

 so with all that said. the true conclusion, and fact is, we do not honestly know , all the answers and some we will never know, for it is still a mystery , and only God knows, and we can only understand what our little minds that are made by God figure out,  so we read the word of God, read scripture, and what we cannot answer we give it too God,?

and at the right time, that we need to know we will know, as it is given from above, so not every one has all the answers, and we may not ever learn all the answers,  we do have scripture , but , it does not mean we know every thing, and for my self,  I am still learning everyday , for Gods love endures forever, and we are not ever going to get it , as a vapor, in this life,

 but we must stay focus on his wirds of truth and obey as we can, and not be conformed to this world , and all will fall in place, for we are to be lead by the holy spirit and truth , and he gives us all that is sufficient for us,

 and every day is new in the lord,  blessings to you , and thank you for sharing, shalom

[Sister]

9 hours ago, 1to3 said:

Contradictions?

 

well I just started with Enoch and found in Chapter 22 [SECT. V.]

 

1. From thence I proceeded to another spot, where I saw on the west a great and lofty mountain, a strong rock, and four delightful places.

2. Internally it was deep, capacious, and very smooth; as smooth as if it had been rolled over: it was both deep and dark to behold.

3. Then Raphael, one of the holy angels who were with me, answered and said, These are the delightful places where the spirits, the souls of the dead, will be collected; for them were they formed; and here will be collected all the souls of the sons of men.

4. These places, in which they dwell, shall they occupy until the day of judgment, and until their appointed period.

5. Their appointed period will be long, even until the great judgment. And I saw the spirits of the sons of men who were dead; and their voices reached to heaven, while they were accusing.

6. Then I inquired of Raphael, an angel who was with me, and said, Whose spirit is that, the voice of which reaches to heaven, and accuses?

7. He answered, saying, This is the spirit of Abel, who was slain by Cain his brother; and who will accuse that brother, until his seed be destroyed from the face of the earth;

--------------------------------

 

From my understanding this reading it is mentioning that all who die go to these places  for the moment until judgement

But does not the bible say: absent from the body present with the Lord?

I thought that Christian believers go directly to the Lord, and that non believer lie asleep until the time of judgement

 

And if Able is with the Lord, why would he be accusing his brother continually?

 

----------------------------------

please correct me if i am wrong but this to me show contradiction with thew Word of God.

---------------------------------

 

Hi 1to3

Good question!  It seems like a contradiction if the dead are dead, just like this one from Revelations;

Revelation 6:9   And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Revelation 6:10   And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

I first questioned this as it contradicts the below;

Ecclesiastes 9:5   For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 9:6   Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9:10   Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Then I realised that Rev was a metaphor!  Remember this verse?

Revelation 8:3   And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:4   And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

The prayers of the saints are never forgotten!  They are all stored.  The angel below collects all the prayers of the saints, and sends it to the angel in charge above who keeps it in the golden censer, which then gives it to God!  These prayers never die.  The people died, but their prayers for help and justice live on FOREVER.  The prayers are PRESERVED.  Justice is crying out from the GRAVE.  It's a metaphor

Revelation 5:8   And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
 

Revelation 15:8   And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

See, now we know that this smoke that fills the temple are all the prayers of the saints, and their odours, NOW GOD IS GOING TO ACT, and do JUSTICE on their behalf.  NOW HE WILL ANSWER these prayers all at once with all their prayers collected TOGETHER!

 

Now look at this one concerning the ungodly

 Revelation 14:11   And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Their "works" ascend up also, but not for good.  Most are still alive and their works will be remembered all together now too, with the rest of the dead who did wickedness.  Evil will be cut off.  They get their reward also.  Abel's blood is still crying out metaphorically!  Justice is crying out!  All the smoke from the good and evil has filled heaven.  There must be a horrible smell in there also!

Now God said this;

 Ezekiel 18:4   Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Souls belong to God, so he collects their souls when they die.  He takes them back, and just preserves them.  He puts them into different rooms according to what he will do with them.  Jesus said "My Father's house has many mansions".  Many different sections.  The judging will be done from heaven, so the souls of men have to be there.  The prayers of the saints "ascended", so they came from the earth, below whilst alive, not heaven. 

So far, what seemed like a contradiction to me once before concerning the dead only was a contradiction because I never understood, but now it's a little more clear having put many scriptures together by weighing everything out.

So I find that this passage you questioned, does not contradict, but harmonises with the scriptures quite nicely so far.

[SINNERSAVED]

Great post sister.. i will have to look at that, closer, and put it to thought, so revealing, and awesome thank you for that it is so inspiring

 and such a beautiful way to bring it al together,

 blessings to you  shalom

[Sister]

Thank you SINNERSAVED.

My Book of Enoch, version by Charles Lawrence in RED is worded slightly different.  Compare because it does make a difference;

 

1. From thence I proceeded to another spot, where I saw on the west a great and lofty mountain, a strong rock, and four delightful places.

1.  And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock. (I think "he" is supposed to be "the", my version has spelling errors)

 

2. Internally it was deep, capacious, and very smooth; as smooth as if it had been rolled over: it was both deep and dark to behold.

2.  And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth.  How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at.

Where did "on the West" come into it?  They said "four delightful places"?, my version says "smooth deep and dark to behold"

3. Then Raphael, one of the holy angels who were with me, answered and said, These are the delightful places where the spirits, the souls of the dead, will be collected; for them were they formed; and here will be collected all the souls of the sons of men.

3.  Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should

These "delightful places" are actually just "hollow places".  Nothing delightful about them unless someone enjoys to see us dead.

4. These places, in which they dwell, shall they occupy until the day of judgment, and until their appointed period.

4.  assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here.  And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.  I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit.

 

5. Their appointed period will be long, even until the great judgment. And I saw the spirits of the sons of men who were dead; and their voices reached to heaven, while they were accusing.

5.  and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit.

The devil "accuses".  Men just cry out for Justice, so I see the wording of that version changed a bit.

 

6. Then I inquired of Raphael, an angel who was with me, and said, Whose spirit is that, the voice of which reaches to heaven, and accuses?

6.  with me, and I said unto him: This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and make suit to heaven?

Again Satan the Accuser, accuses, ....men maketh suit, plead their cause.  It's so subtle, not much of a difference, but I can pick which version I prefer.  The one with the spelling errors and verse numbers inserted mid sentence!

 

7. He answered, saying, This is the spirit of Abel, who was slain by Cain his brother; and who will accuse that brother, until his seed be destroyed from the face of the earth;

7.  And he answered me saying:  This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.

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Seeing as God doesn't like it when we "accuse", .."makes suit" sounds right to me.  Plead our cause.  Nothing major, but subtle changes.  There are a few exceptions in the bible, just something to think about for now.

 Psalms 35:1   Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.

Proverbs 30:10   Accuse not a servant unto his master, lest he curse thee, and thou be found guilty.