TrevorL Posted April 6, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted April 6, 2016 Greetings n2thelight, 3 hours ago, n2thelight said: Yeshua was actually predicting that the Abomination of Desolation which occurred under Antiochus Epiphanes in which he pronounced himself to be God and defiled the Holy Temple (which when corrected by the Maccabean Revolt resulting in the celebration known as Hanukkah) would occur again during the time of the final Antichrist. This is where I disagree. It seems to mix two different strands. The Anti-Christ is the Papacy a religious entity and his temple is in Rome and claims to be or is spoken of as "the holy father", but the King of the North who will be similar to the Roman desolator of AD 70 will be a military power. The first is the subject mentioned in Daniel 7 as the little horn of the fourth beast, while the latter is the little horn of the goat in Daniel 8 and also mentioned in Daniel 11:40-45. Kind regards Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted April 6, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted April 6, 2016 6 hours ago, TrevorL said: Greetings again WilliamL, Are you suggesting all of the following in Matthew applies to the future, while that of Luke applies to AD 70? Matthew 24: 15-20 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Luke 21: 20-24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Kind regards Trevor Hi Trevor Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled at the Coming, the 1st Resurrection. Now go to Rev Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. Now straight after the temple is measured, look who comes on to the scene. Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Can you see Brother that Jerusalem being trodden on by the gentiles concerns the end times? We know that did happen in 70AD, but reading on further in Luke it's specifically referring to the end times and not 70AD? Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted April 7, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,111 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,550 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted April 7, 2016 On 4/6/2016 at 8:20 PM, TrevorL said: Are you suggesting all of the following in Matthew applies to the future, while that of Luke applies to AD 70? Matthew 24: 15-20 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: You left off right at the key verse 21: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Which is equivalent to Daniel 12:1 (which Dan. 11:45 tells us comes "at the time of the end": "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." So yes, this part of Matthew applies to the future, not to 70 AD. I would have also responded to the second part of your question, but I see that Sister already addressed it very well above. The portion of Luke you quoted does refer to 70 AD, but he then went on to speak of the relationship of that event to the End Times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 On 4/5/2016 at 2:03 PM, Qnts2 said: gar Giora was not considered to be the Messiah. Giora was actually prevented by the Jewish people from entering Jerusalem initially until a split within Jewish factions when one side allowed him in to help defeat the other side. Bar Kokhba was considered to be the Messiah by a very famous Jewish leader of that time called Akiva. Bar Kokhba was actually named Simon bar Koseva but was given the nickname of bar Kokhba by Rabbi Akiva. Bar Kokhba means 'Son of the Star' which was a Messianic reference. Bar Kokhba defeated the Roman army and Israel gained independence for about 3 years, when the Romans defeated bar Kokhba and took Israel again. After the defeat, the Jewish people were banned from Jerusalem. Bar Kokhba was given a new nickname of bar Koseba which means 'son of lies'. As usual we disagree. You yourself admit "initially" and "until". So there is a disconnect in your own statement above concerning Bar Giora. He initially was not considered Messiah by the rulers at Jerusaslem, UNTIL he was. As for Bar Kokhba, him being called the "son of the star", He had coins minted with his image as a star standing over the ark of the covenant, in the temple. It was not until after the first false Messiah, that the teaching of Messiah Ben Joseph, vs Messiah Ben David were put forth by the rulers. The teaching that Messiah ben Joseph would suffer and die first, then Messiah ben David would conquer is what lead the way for the second revolt in the first place IMO. Many prophecies could be seen as fulfilled in these two. The first, actually arose out of the ground dressed as a Jewish king, in the very spot of the holy of holies. He also did not acknowledge the God of his father Abraham, nor the gods of the Roman Empire. The suffering He caused upon his own people in Jerusalem was much greater than Rome did. So, while you say he was not considered Messiah, that is only for a period of time, until he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted April 7, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 7, 2016 3 hours ago, Joline said: As usual we disagree. You yourself admit "initially" and "until". So there is a disconnect in your own statement above concerning Bar Giora. He initially was not considered Messiah by the rulers at Jerusaslem, UNTIL he was. As for Bar Kokhba, him being called the "son of the star", He had coins minted with his image as a star standing over the ark of the covenant, in the temple. It was not until after the first false Messiah, that the teaching of Messiah Ben Joseph, vs Messiah Ben David were put forth by the rulers. The teaching that Messiah ben Joseph would suffer and die first, then Messiah ben David would conquer is what lead the way for the second revolt in the first place IMO. Many prophecies could be seen as fulfilled in these two. The first, actually arose out of the ground dressed as a Jewish king, in the very spot of the holy of holies. He also did not acknowledge the God of his father Abraham, nor the gods of the Roman Empire. The suffering He caused upon his own people in Jerusalem was much greater than Rome did. So, while you say he was not considered Messiah, that is only for a period of time, until he was. I never said the bar Giora was considered to be the messiah. I said that he wasn't considered to be the messiah. He was even kept from entering Jerusalem by the Jewish people. One group in a political battle with another group let him into Jerusalem to fight against their opposition but that group never considered him to be the messiah. They wanted his help to win a battle. When the Romans defeated the armies lead by Giora, he initially hid underground near where the Temple had stood, and then dressed in a costume, came out and was captured. Some believe the white robe with a purple cloak was a disguise used to escape and others believe that it was to cause the Romans to attack him and kill him. Bar Kokhba was considered by some, including a very high level leader to be the messiah. When Bar Kokhba was killed, that ended any consideration of him as messiah as he did not fulfill the messianic scriptures. If you consider Jewish history, Bar Kokhba changed the debate of the timing of the messiah, as it was written that there would be no more calculations of the timing of the messiah based on Daniels timeline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINNERSAVED Posted April 7, 2016 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 6 Topic Count: 150 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,195 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 2,409 Days Won: 14 Joined: 07/30/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 7, 2016 On 4/6/2016 at 1:35 AM, Sister said: Hi Trevor Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled at the Coming, the 1st Resurrection. Now go to Rev Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. Now straight after the temple is measured, look who comes on to the scene. Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Can you see Brother that Jerusalem being trodden on by the gentiles concerns the end times? We know that did happen in 70AD, but reading on further in Luke it's specifically referring to the end times and not 70AD? Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Peace that is awesome, and thank you very much, for that in sight and explaining this, so we can follow, you Sister and Willaiml, are doing great , and I am very proud of both of you, for your skills and knowledge in this area, thank you both brother and sister for sharing with us, I am enjoying it. and learning a lot, blessings to both of you and shalom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 2 hours ago, Qnts2 said: I never said the bar Giora was considered to be the messiah. I said that he wasn't considered to be the messiah. He was even kept from entering Jerusalem by the Jewish people. One group in a political battle with another group let him into Jerusalem to fight against their opposition but that group never considered him to be the messiah. They wanted his help to win a battle. The coins minted made proclamations concerning his POLITICAL BATTLE victory. You can say what ever you wish, and spin it as you wish. The coins and his being asked to come into to Jerusalem says volumes. The Talmud IMO, were simply STORIES created after the fact. Those stories also contain untruths concerning the events which occurred with the Roman General. The Leading Rabbi which escaped to the Romans, supposedly prophecied concerning huis ascent as ceasar. This story is untrue. It did happen, but it was Josephus which did this, not the Rabbinic ruler from Jerusalem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted April 8, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 8, 2016 4 hours ago, Joline said: The coins minted made proclamations concerning his POLITICAL BATTLE victory. You can say what ever you wish, and spin it as you wish. The coins and his being asked to come into to Jerusalem says volumes. The Talmud IMO, were simply STORIES created after the fact. Those stories also contain untruths concerning the events which occurred with the Roman General. The Leading Rabbi which escaped to the Romans, supposedly prophecied concerning huis ascent as ceasar. This story is untrue. It did happen, but it was Josephus which did this, not the Rabbinic ruler from Jerusalem. Just for correct information, while bar Kokhba is mentioned in the Talmud, along with warnings concerning the tragic error, bar Giora is not mentioned at all. Most of the information about bar Giora comes from the historian, Josephus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 13 hours ago, Qnts2 said: Just for correct information, while bar Kokhba is mentioned in the Talmud, along with warnings concerning the tragic error, bar Giora is not mentioned at all. Most of the information about bar Giora comes from the historian, Josephus. Correction, I never said Giora was mentioned. I spoke of the leading rabbi at the time. Here is a copy and paste of what I am talking about. Johanan ben Zakkai Born some years before Jesus, Johanan ben Zakkai was the great rabbi at the Council of Jamnia about AD 90, surviving by over a decade the fall of Jerusalem. He was notable in the leadership of the peace party. Never did he waver even for a moment in his opposition to the rebellion, which he felt was to bring destruction on the people, the sanctuary and the land. Fearful lest the carnage should destroy all teachers and transmitters of the oral tradition, Johanan ben Zakkai escaped from the city, and set up an academy in a vineyard at Yabne, or Jamnia, near the Mediterranean coast. He had left Jerusalem before the final catastrophe and the story is that he simulated death and had himself carried out of Jerusalem during the seige and carried out in a coffin. Seeing the destruction of Jerusalem imminent, the rabbi prophesied to Vespasian and asked the Roman General the gift of Jabneh, where he might assemble the scholars of the nation and asked build the academy there. He organized a new Sanhedrin at Jamnia, composed not of priests, politicians and rich men, but of Pharisees and rabbis i.e. teachers of the Law. At the Council of Jamnia, about AD 90, Johanan ben Zakkai was notable in the leadership of the peace party. It was the liberal tradition of Oral Law that Rabbi ben Zakkai wanted to safeguard, especially that of Hillel's. This is why the academy at Jabneh was so important after Jerusalem's destruction. In the world around them the Jews were scattered and being lost to other nations. How does one go about preventing the disappearance of a people which has lost its country, defragmentized into thousands of segments, and which has been strewn over. The Pharisees alone, the men of the center, had a program ready made for a constructive policy of spiritual recuperation, and to that task they resolutely applied themselves. Their leader was Hohanan son of Zaccai, a pupil of Hillel. The present day Jewish religion may be said to have descended from what Johan did to preserve the faith of Abraham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorL Posted April 9, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Greetings again WilliamL, I still believe that Matthew 24: 15-20 and Luke 21: 20-24 are parallel for the reasons stated in my earlier Posts, mainly the same terms used in each and the fact that the warnings about fleeing the city are not applicable to present day believers. Also the Abomination of Desolation is referring to Daniel 8, and this is the little horn of the goat, the Eastern, military aspect of the Roman Empire. Also I believe that Matthew most probably wrote for the Jewish believers, and thus the events surrounding AD70 was an important prophecy for them. Matthew's account would need to be complete, as again I believe it would have been written earlier than Luke's record. As such Matthew's record needed to include an answer to when the Temple was to be destroyed, which was one of the questions in Matthew 24:1-3. So in a sense I have a difficulty with your claim in the following: On 07/04/2016 at 0:34 AM, WilliamL said: You left off right at the key verse 21: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Which is equivalent to Daniel 12:1 (which Dan. 11:45 tells us comes "at the time of the end": "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." So yes, this part of Matthew applies to the future, not to 70 AD. I take the following as also in parallel with your suggested "key verse" Matthew 24:21.Luke 21:23-24 (KJV): 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. My only explanation is that for the Jews of AD 70 there was the wiping out of the nation of Judah, their priesthood, their Temple and their Holy City. In the future there will be a time of trouble, but even though Israel will be involved in this and suffer judgements, this will not be so severe as far as Israel is concerned. The nations are going to suffer severely and the words of Daniel apply to them at the Battle of Armageddon, but Jesus is going to intervene and rescue and convert the Jews at this time of trouble. Kind regards Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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