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The World of the dead


spiderman1917

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On 4/29/2016 at 10:51 PM, spiderman1917 said:

What is the Scriptural basis for saying there are no saved souls in Sheol any longer?  Nothing in scripture says that if saved, you are immediately judged and go to heaven 

"It is appointed for once man to die after that the judgement."  Hebrews 9:27.  You cannot pray someone out of Sheol if you are in Sheol you were never saved to begin with.  Everyone is going to be judged.  Believers at the Judgement Seat of Christ, for our works, what we did for Jesus, those who are not saved are going to be judged for their sins, for rejecting Christ and they will go to hell and it will be for eternity.

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On 6/6/2016 at 0:57 AM, RustyAngeL said:

Those who die in their sin have no hope and have no choice.  They missed their chance when they were here.  One your dead there is no hope for you.  You cannot pray those who are in Hades out of Hades.  That isnot Bible doctrine.

Technically, it isnt clear to know what Bible Doctrine is.  The Bible doesn't tell us how to interpret it.  That is why someone here mentioned " it isn't Samuel that appeared but a Demon" because the belief that it was Samuel contradicted His understanding of other Scriptures.  Another said "The Bible says it was Samuel, I trust God's word."  

This is very common.  The Bible has many passages that lead people to opposite opinions.  The Scriptures themselves often do not settle these disputes as both parties keep collecting scripture to prove opposite points.

I grew up in a sabbath keeping home where "The Bible says, keep the Sabbath, most Christians don't keep the Sabbath therefore they don't keep the 10 Commandments!  SHame on them! The Bible never says to do away with it God's Holy Sabbath!"  I chronically saw division about Scripture growing up.

The problem is, the people who say "It must be Bible Doctrine" are forgetting that the belief that "something must be in the Bible to be Doctrine", is not a Doctrine found in the Bible, therefore is not a "Bible Doctrine".

 It is found nowhere in Scripture that the Bible is to be the sole rule of faith.  That would actually be impossible , because if every Theological decision had to be based on Scripture, there could never be a Bible, because then the Bible would have to tell us which Canon was the correct one.

Christians debated this stuff for centuries without the Scriptures giving much indication who was right or wrong..  Even Martin Luther called the letter of James an "Epistle of straw" because it said the opposite of other verses in the Bible he used for his agenda.  He also doubted that the book of Revelation was inspired Scripture.

Scripture never says if something isn't in Scripture it isn't true.  In fact, the Gospel makes it clear that a very small amount of what Jesus did and said is even written down (John 21:25)

Now it is true that, 2 Timothy 3:16 ►New International Version says:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

So, absolutely no one can argue that a man of God needs Scripture to be thoroughly equipped for every good work, but it isn't that simple either.  

Most of the early Christians were not literate, they didn't know which New Testament writtings were Scripture, and Jesus hadn't left them with a Bible.... but their not reading the Bible does not mean they weren't equipped for every good work.

The Apostles were anointed to speak the word of God.  They didn't go around making copies of Scripture and handing them to everyone.  They went about preaching what the Holy Spirit inspired them to.  Whether they had Scripture to read or not, the Holy-Spirit equipped them thoroughly.

However, let's just say a person needs the Bible to be "Thoroughly equipped for every good work".  That still doesn't mean the Bible contains everything they need.  We all die without a few minutes of Oxygen, so we need oxygen to be equipped to do anything, but it doesn't mean we need oxygen alone, or that Oxygen "thoroughly equips us" for every good work.

 

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19 hours ago, spiderman1917 said:

Technically, it isnt clear to know what Bible Doctrine is.  The Bible doesn't tell us how to interpret it.  That is why someone here mentioned " it isn't Samuel that appeared but a Demon" because the belief that it was Samuel contradicted His understanding of other Scriptures.  Another said "The Bible says it was Samuel, I trust God's word."  

This is very common.  The Bible has many passages that lead people to opposite opinions.  The Scriptures themselves often do not settle these disputes as both parties keep collecting scripture to prove opposite points.

I grew up in a sabbath keeping home where "The Bible says, keep the Sabbath, most Christians don't keep the Sabbath therefore they don't keep the 10 Commandments!  SHame on them! The Bible never says to do away with it God's Holy Sabbath!"  I chronically saw division about Scripture growing up.

The problem is, the people who say "It must be Bible Doctrine" are forgetting that the belief that "something must be in the Bible to be Doctrine", is not a Doctrine found in the Bible, therefore is not a "Bible Doctrine".

 It is found nowhere in Scripture that the Bible is to be the sole rule of faith.  That would actually be impossible , because if every Theological decision had to be based on Scripture, there could never be a Bible, because then the Bible would have to tell us which Canon was the correct one.

Christians debated this stuff for centuries without the Scriptures giving much indication who was right or wrong..  Even Martin Luther called the letter of James an "Epistle of straw" because it said the opposite of other verses in the Bible he used for his agenda.  He also doubted that the book of Revelation was inspired Scripture.

Scripture never says if something isn't in Scripture it isn't true.  In fact, the Gospel makes it clear that a very small amount of what Jesus did and said is even written down (John 21:25)

Now it is true that, 2 Timothy 3:16 ►New International Version says:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

So, absolutely no one can argue that a man of God needs Scripture to be thoroughly equipped for every good work, but it isn't that simple either.  

Most of the early Christians were not literate, they didn't know which New Testament writtings were Scripture, and Jesus hadn't left them with a Bible.... but their not reading the Bible does not mean they weren't equipped for every good work.

The Apostles were anointed to speak the word of God.  They didn't go around making copies of Scripture and handing them to everyone.  They went about preaching what the Holy Spirit inspired them to.  Whether they had Scripture to read or not, the Holy-Spirit equipped them thoroughly.

However, let's just say a person needs the Bible to be "Thoroughly equipped for every good work".  That still doesn't mean the Bible contains everything they need.  We all die without a few minutes of Oxygen, so we need oxygen to be equipped to do anything, but it doesn't mean we need oxygen alone, or that Oxygen "thoroughly equips us" for every good work.

 

As the Bible says, "It is appointed for once man to die after that the judgement"  Once are dead and your not saved there is not a second chance for you.  To preach such a doctrine is not only totally un scriptural but very dangerous.  Once your gone you cannot change your mind.

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Quote

Technically, it isnt clear to know what Bible Doctrine is.  The Bible doesn't tell us how to interpret it.

It is clear as Revealed by the Power of the Holy Spirit ,,,,,that is why.....

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King James Bible
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
                                                                                                                                                                 Proverbs 3: 5

 

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33 minutes ago, RustyAngeL said:

As the Bible says, "It is appointed for once man to die after that the judgement"  Once are dead and your not saved there is not a second chance for you.  To preach such a doctrine is not only totally un scriptural but very dangerous.  Once your gone you cannot change your mind.

 Romans 2:14 ►

Parallel Verses

New International Version
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law." 

He  was speaking of non Christians or people that did not know the truth. 

Jesus said if he  had not come to the Pharisees or they did not know any better," they would not have sin. " 

It  isn't a matter of people getting a second chance.   It's just some people were never  fully enlightened by the spirit to know the truth,  therefore they didn't have a chance to accept it. 

We don't know at what point the soul  leaves the body and is damned or saved.   Scripture says  the gospel is preached even to the dead. 

If God was to give a person full understanding of the truth,  and give that person an opportunity to accept or reject it, he could  do  that even if to our human eye, it looks like All Is Lost. 

Were God to fully enlighten a person while they are in a coma or flatlining, (as some have claimed he did ), and chose  to accept Jesus and repent,  we wouldn't know about it. 

It wouldn't contradict Scripture , because God has often in the Bible spoken to unconscious people,  and even with our modern technology, we have still at times pronounced people dead, who came back to life. 

So,  we don't know that just because a person's pulse stops, or they quit breathing, they are without hope , or that their soul has already been judged as going to heaven or hell.

Since the soul never dies,  we have no way of knowing at what point has the soul lost all hope of salvation...

...neither do we know at what point the soul exits the body. 

People have been pronounced dead and it was later discovered they  were buried alive, so it is  quite a mystery, because people after being pronounced dead,  have had enlightening experiences with Jesus. 

If the truth was preached to someone who's body "died", and that  person accepted the truth and was saved, that wouldn't mean they were given a second chance. 

If that was the first time they knew the truth , it was the first chance they had to accept it. 

 

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On 6/16/2016 at 0:41 PM, spiderman1917 said:

It's just some people were never  fully enlightened by the spirit to know the truth,  therefore they didn't have a chance to accept it. 

Roman's 1:20 says that no one is without excuse for the knowledge of God is made known to us instinctively. It is in every person's heart and mind. Both in the saved and in the unsaved. And just as we can taste good food, so we also can taste truth when we hear it. The word “gospel” means “good news”. There there is salvation available. The message of Christ on the cross is not a difficult concept for people to grasp. It is so simple that even young children can understand and come to Christ in the same way an adult can.

When people hear the gospel, the holy spirit confirms the message in their hearts that what they are hearing is true. If a child can comprehend this simple message and way to God, an adult does NOT need further enlightenment. Once a person has heard the gospel, it is then up to them to decide to except it or reject it. People reject it because it convicts them of the sin in their hearts. They also reject it because the message of Christ on the cross does not agree with their shallow and sinful philosophy. Those who reject it, do not want to give up their sins.

To say that a person has a second chance after death is to say that Christ's work on the cross was unfinished. There would be no need for a call to repentance. God calls us to turn from sin and turn to him for salvation while we are on this earth. A person who rejects the gospel while he is alive on earth, has nothing further to look forward to after death.

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Here in lies the problem,  if you read many  of the posts here or any Christian forum on a daily basis, you will see Christians often believe  the opposite of what another Christian does based on scripture. 

So,  if one of those Christians agrees with you and the other doesn't,  that person knows they are rejecting the truth?   

No,  apparently it isn't simple  enough for a child to understand , because people who have studied scripture all of their life  come to opposite conclusions about what it means ( that never get resolved after endless debates. )  

So,  if Calvin was right , does that mean everyone who rejects Calvinism knows they are rejecting the truth. 

How do you know all the Muslims,  Moromons,  Hindus,  or whatever know they were rejecting the truth?

So,  before white settlers made it to North and South America and preached the Gospel to the Aboriginals,  they all went to hell?   

And every aboriginal that rejected the teachings of these often corrupt greedy Europeans knew that they were rejecting the truth? 

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2 hours ago, spiderman1917 said:

Here in lies the problem,  if you read many  of the posts here or any Christian forum on a daily basis, you will see Christians often believe  the opposite of what another Christian does based on scripture. 

So,  if one of those Christians agrees with you and the other doesn't,  that person knows they are rejecting the truth?   

No,  apparently it isn't simple  enough for a child to understand , because people who have studied scripture all of their life  come to opposite conclusions about what it means ( that never get resolved after endless debates. )  

So,  if Calvin was right , does that mean everyone who rejects Calvinism knows they are rejecting the truth. 

How do you know all the Muslims,  Moromons,  Hindus,  or whatever know they were rejecting the truth?

So,  before white settlers made it to North and South America and preached the Gospel to the Aboriginals,  they all went to hell?   

And every aboriginal that rejected the teachings of these often corrupt greedy Europeans knew that they were rejecting the truth? 

Spiderman, you bring up some valid points in your discussion.

 

All I know is that , the more I search out God, the more He has revealed Himself to me and through His plan of Mercy, Grace and Salvation through His only begot ton son Christ Jesus.

with Gods plan of Mercy and Grace through Christ Jesus, I would be very lost and definitely not the same person than I am today.

Not that I am great in any way, but He has helped me out of many pits and He has shown Grace to me when I did not deserve it, because I never gave up in seeking Him.

 

For me, my relationship with God through His plan of Mercy and Grace, is very important for my survival and gives me reason to live.

God has revealed Himself to me through His plan of Mercy and Grace through His only begotten son Christ Jesus found in the Holy Bible.

Without Him in my life, I have no purpose to live. I would be so lost.

God has given me purpose in Him. however humble my life may be.

God has also shown me His Love for me, even though I know I am undeserving of it.

If there was no plan of salvation through Christ Jesus, I would feel completely hopeless and totally unworthy to be alive.

This is the Only Plan from God for me that has changed me and helped and changed me, to make my life seem worthwhile.

 

I do believe scripture does tell us that God does reveal Himself to ALL, ( i think i just read it recently in 1 Corinthians around chapter 3 or somewhere near that chapter)

just not ALL accept His love or are willing to live in His Love, Mercy and Grace.

 

I still do not feel worthy of much some times because I see so much still that needs fixing, but His promises in His Word give me hope that I am worthy, worthy of His Love and can show His Love to others to while I'm on this earth.

And for this I can have hope, that, it is He, who is working in me, changing me

day by day as I lean on Him for everything in my life, to become more and more the child of God I was always intended to be.

Through Gods plan of Mercy and Grace, I am not saved by my own works but God working in me.

I know of no other religion or spiritual practice that offers such a free  loving, healing, merciful gift for my life.

 

Fortunately I have understood that of myself I can do nothing and that it is God in me that helps me to live.

He has proven and shown that to me over and over in my life. I know of no of any other way that has shown this kind of Love.

 

I have come to realize that without Him, I am a walking dead person.

God has given us this life to find Him or to reject Him.

He has given us this free choice here and now not after physical death has taken full control over us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, spiderman1917 said:

Here in lies the problem,  if you read many  of the posts here or any Christian forum on a daily basis, you will see Christians often believe  the opposite of what another Christian does based on scripture. 

So,  if one of those Christians agrees with you and the other doesn't,  that person knows they are rejecting the truth?   

No,  apparently it isn't simple  enough for a child to understand , because people who have studied scripture all of their life  come to opposite conclusions about what it means ( that never get resolved after endless debates. )  

So,  if Calvin was right , does that mean everyone who rejects Calvinism knows they are rejecting the truth. 

How do you know all the Muslims,  Moromons,  Hindus,  or whatever know they were rejecting the truth?

So,  before white settlers made it to North and South America and preached the Gospel to the Aboriginals,  they all went to hell?   

And every aboriginal that rejected the teachings of these often corrupt greedy Europeans knew that they were rejecting the truth? 

 

The problem with all other religions is that they direct people away from the way God himself said was the only way to him. He rejects all other means as the way to him. As long as a person puts his/her hope in their own power, strength or in someone other than Jesus our saviour as the way to heaven, they will NEVER receive salvation. Other religions do not provide the assured hope, because they teach that man can attain righteousness by his own power and strength alone instead of believing what the living God has said is the way to him.

The bible tells us to simply believe what God has said about his son. All we need to do is believe the gospel message. That God sent his son down from heaven, born of a woman, died on the cross, and rose from the dead, and then went back up to heaven. All we are required to do is simply believe this and put complete trust in Jesus to get us there. It is that simple. That is why a child can do it. It only becomes difficult and complicated when people try to find their own way to heaven. Instead of obeying God.

John 14:6 says . . .Jesus is the truth and the life. There is no other way to heaven except through him.

Quote

How do you know all the Muslims,  Moromons,  Hindus,  or whatever know they were rejecting the truth?

Muslims do not believe Jesus died on the cross and rose again, Mormons put their hope in a god from kolob which places faith in someone other than Christ. They do not put their faith in the Jesus of the bible. Hindu's put their faith in brahma. All other religions are based on everything and anything but Christ. Until a person turns from all other means, as the way to God he/she will not attain salvation.

God chose his son as the way to him, not muhammed, brahma, budda, kolob, etc. . . . no one is saying that people who put their hope and trust in God's son won't make it. But of people who refuse to believe who Jesus is and refuse to put their hope in him alone as the way to heaven. 

 

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That didn't answer my question.   Do people of those faiths know they are rejecting the truth.?  

Did all the native  Americans  and aboriginals go to hell before white people showed up and preached the Gospel to them? 

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