The Great Image.

[Marilyn C]

 

 

I believe that the main error in echatology starts right here with people`s wrong interpretation of the Great Image. God gave this image to portray an overview of the Gentile`s World Rulership on earth. Four Empires have come & gone & there is one final one to manifest.

When God gave the dream to Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon the other empires had not yet arisen, but God declared them in His word. Thus it is not up to us to speculate or have opinions for God has said who they all are.

 

So let`s start with God`s word -

`You, O king, were watching; & behold, a great image! This image, whose splendour was excellent, stood before you; & its form was awesome.

This image`s head was of fine gold, its chest & arms of silver, its belly & thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly iron & partly clay......` (Dan. 2: 31 – 33)

 

Now God` s interpretation for the Great Image -

 

`This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. You, O king are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength & glory; & wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field & the birds of heaven, He has given them into your hand, & has made you ruler over them all – you are this head of gold.

But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces & shatters all things; & like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces & crush all the others.

Whereas you saw the feet & toes, partly of potter`s clay & pertly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly iron & partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong & partly fragile.

And as you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay

And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed;....` (Dan. 2: 36 – 44)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2016 by Marilyn C

[Marilyn C]

From God`s word, I believe we know that the parts of the great Image are –

 

THE HEAD – BABYLON. `you are this head..` Nebuchadnezzar.` (Dan. 2: 38)

THE CHEST & ARMS – MEDES & PERSIANS.  `Your kingdom has been divided & given to the Medes & Persians.`(Dan. 5: 28)

THE BELLY & THIGHS – GREECE.  `the male goat is the kingdom of Greece.`(Dan. 8: 21)

THE LEGS – ROME. `And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.` (Luke 2: 1)

THE FEET & TOES – THE DIVIDED KINGDOM.  `shall be different from all other kingdoms, & shall devour the whole earth,...` (Dan. 7: 23)

 

 

And from God`s word I believe we know that the metals are –

 

GOLD –  complete power by the king.  `For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength & glory:...` (Dan. 2: 37) `You O king have made a decree....`  (Dan. 3: 10)

SILVER –  inferior power.  `But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours...` (Dan. 2: 39)  `Now, O king establish the decree....according to the law of the Medes & Persians, which does not alter.`  (Dan. 6: 8)

BRONZE –  also inferior of power.`then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.` (Dan. 2: 39)

IRON –  strong power. `And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron,...` (Dan. 2: 40)

IRON & CLAY -  partly strong & partly fragile. `Whereas you saw the feet & toes, partly of potter`s clay & pertly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; .......so the kingdom shall be partly strong & partly fragile.` (Dan. 2: 41 & 42)

 

 

Thus I believe, we see that God has shown us that the 5 parts of the Great Image, being the 5 world rulers – 4 have gone & one to come.

Then God has given us a description of the power of those rulers. The first, Babylon being the most powerful, then the others are inferior to that, till finally the last power is divided, partly strong & partly weak.

As well we know we cannot base doctrine, teaching on one scripture, let alone a symbol, thus we need more scripture to clearly show us who this final `divided kingdom` is.

What are your thoughts based upon God`s word?

Note please use scripture & not waste time with speculation & opinions, especially of symbols.

Marilyn.

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2016 by Marilyn C

[Marilyn C]

[TrevorL]

Greetings Marilyn C,

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I believe that the main error in echatology starts right here with people`s wrong interpretation of the Great Image. God gave this image to portray an overview of the Gentile`s World Rulership on earth. Four Empires have come & gone & there is one final one to manifest.

I agree that the prophecy of Daniel 2 is important as it not only forms a foundation for the rest of the Book of Daniel, but also forms a framework to help to understand many other Bible prophecies. Possibly right from the start we seem to have a slight difference of view. If you consider each of the four empires, they succeeded one after the other, Medo-Persia conquered Babylon, Greece conquered Persia, and Rome infiltrated and conquered Greece, and sometimes we hear of the Greco-Roman world. But all of these were in a sense continuous, often ascendant over at least some of the former Empire's territory.

In other words there was no gap between each of these four kingdoms. But you speak of "a final one" as if this final one is a fifth empire and still future, while you say the Roman has come and gone. This requires a large gap of years. But then in the following you quote from Daniel 7 where it is describing the 4th beast.

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

THE FEET & TOES – THE DIVIDED KINGDOM.  `shall be different from all other kingdoms, & shall devour the whole earth,...` (Dan. 7: 23)

The 4th beast had ten horns and this corresponds with the ten toes of the image. I suggest that the 4th beast is the Roman Empire, and the legs of iron speak of Roman Empire when it was united and strong, while the feet of iron and clay speak of the same power in decline and yet the same territory. The iron and clay is representative Europe with many rulers and independent territories. Their present attempts to unify could also be what Daniel 2 describes.

Kind regards Trevor

[Marilyn C]

 

1 hour ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings Marilyn C,

I agree that the prophecy of Daniel 2 is important as it not only forms a foundation for the rest of the Book of Daniel, but also forms a framework to help to understand many other Bible prophecies. Possibly right from the start we seem to have a slight difference of view. If you consider each of the four empires, they succeeded one after the other, Medo-Persia conquered Babylon, Greece conquered Persia, and Rome infiltrated and conquered Greece, and sometimes we hear of the Greco-Roman world. But all of these were in a sense continuous, often ascendant over at least some of the former Empire's territory.

In other words there was no gap between each of these four kingdoms. But you speak of "a final one" as if this final one is a fifth empire and still future, while you say the Roman has come and gone. This requires a large gap of years. But then in the following you quote from Daniel 7 where it is describing the 4th beast.

The 4th beast had ten horns and this corresponds with the ten toes of the image. I suggest that the 4th beast is the Roman Empire, and the legs of iron speak of Roman Empire when it was united and strong, while the feet of iron and clay speak of the same power in decline and yet the same territory. The iron and clay is representative Europe with many rulers and independent territories. Their present attempts to unify could also be what Daniel 2 describes.

Kind regards Trevor

Hi TrevorL,

Thank you Aussie bro for replying. 

My first point is - `Who says there can`t be a gap?` God is showing us world rulers & we all know from history there has not been a world ruler since the Roman Empire. Thus there is another world Ruler.

Second point - If there was a series of vehicles, a red sports, a green sedan, a blue mac, a black limo & a yellow VW, & I said to you the 1st is red, the second is green, the 3rd is blue, the 4th is black & the VW is yellow. I did not have to say it was the last vehicle as our language reveals its position - last. (Obviously I`m pointing to the parts of the Great Images body which many people have trouble identifying the last body part.)

Third point - Yes I did bring in Daniel 7, as another description of the final World Ruler, however I do NOT believe they are all the same as the Great Image. Just the `feet & toes,` agrees with the `10 horns.` I will leave the comparison of Dan. 2 & 7 till another thread.

 

BTW Did you realise you just gave opinions? You said - `I suggest that the 4th beast is the....` & `Their present attempts to unify could also be.....`

 

Finally can you tell me, using scripture that is NOT a symbol or illustration, but straight forward literal language, (& NOT opinion) as to whom the `feet & toes,` the divided kingdom is?

 

All the best, Marilyn.

 

Edited April 18, 2016 by Marilyn C

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Marilyn C,

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

My first point is - `Who says there can`t be a gap?` God is showing us world rulers & we all know from history there has not been a world ruler since the Roman Empire. Thus there is another world Ruler.

Second point - If there was a series of vehicles, a red sports, a green sedan, a blue mac, a black limo & a yellow VW, & I said to you the 1st is red, the second is green, the 3rd is blue, the 4th is black & the VW is yellow. I did not have to say it was the last vehicle as our language reveals its position - last. (Obviously I`m pointing to the parts of the Great Images body which many people have trouble identifying the last body part.)

Third point - Yes I did bring in Daniel 7, as another description of the final World Ruler, however I do NOT believe they are all the same as the Great Image. Just the `feet & toes,` agrees with the `10 horns.` I will leave the comparison of Dan. 2 & 7 till another thread.

I appreciate the warm welcome. Nebuchadnezzar is spoken of as synonymous with the Kingdom of Babylon, but it does not simply say “after thee shall arise another” world ruler, but “another kingdom”:

Daniel 2:36-39 (KJV): 36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Each of these kingdoms had many rulers, and thus the first 4 kingdoms including the legs of iron appear to be continuous, not simply highlighting four rulers. To suggest that the feet and toes of Daniel 2 is simply teaching a 5^th World Ruler rather than many rulers over a long period of time is inconsistent with the rest of Daniel 2. Hence there is no hint of a time gap from Rome (the legs) to what is represented by the feet.

 

I will wait for your explanation and comparison between Daniel 2 and 7, but my perspective is that the 4 beasts correspond to the 4 metals.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Ezra]

14 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

THE FEET & TOES – THE DIVIDED KINGDOM.  `shall be different from all other kingdoms, & shall devour the whole earth,...` (Dan. 7: 23)

I believe this would be better represented as the Revived Roman Empire, since it is not one kingdom but several kingdoms (nations).  Most commentators equate this with the European Union, which also constitutes the old Holy Roman Empire. The mixture of iron and clay shows its fundamental weakness, which is quite evident today.

Because the Antichrist will control this confederation of nations, it "shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces". The Antichrist is the Little Horn that "shall speak great words against the Most High" (Dan 7:24). He is called the Little Horn elsewhere in Daniel.

[Marilyn C]

17 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Marilyn C,

I appreciate the warm welcome. Nebuchadnezzar is spoken of as synonymous with the Kingdom of Babylon, but it does not simply say “after thee shall arise another” world ruler, but “another kingdom”:

Daniel 2:36-39 (KJV): 36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Each of these kingdoms had many rulers, and thus the first 4 kingdoms including the legs of iron appear to be continuous, not simply highlighting four rulers. To suggest that the feet and toes of Daniel 2 is simply teaching a 5^th World Ruler rather than many rulers over a long period of time is inconsistent with the rest of Daniel 2. Hence there is no hint of a time gap from Rome (the legs) to what is represented by the feet.

 

I will wait for your explanation and comparison between Daniel 2 and 7, but my perspective is that the 4 beasts correspond to the 4 metals.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

Hi TrevorL,

Glad to see you taking part in the discussion. That was a good point as per ` after you shall rise another kingdom.` However......

1. God said to king Nebuchadnezzar that he was a `king of kings.` His kingdom was over many nations. God set the precedent with Neb. being the first Gentile world ruler, & the other empires, kingdoms are the same - Gentile world rulers.

`...wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field & the birds of the heaven, He (God) has given them into your hand, & has made you ruler over them all...` (Dan. 2: 38)

2. Now as to `no gap` as you say, then where on the Great Image are the empires such as - the Ottoman empire, the British Empire, (which controlled 1/4 of the world in its hey day) etc. You will notice however that these empires are NOT world rulers. God is just showing us the Gentile World Rulers. We have seen 4 in history & we know there is one to come.

Just because a view has been around a long time does NOT make it true. It has to match up with God`s word, which I`m sure you would agree that is a must. I just hope & pray that you will consider these points we are discussing in line with God`s word.

Marilyn. 

 

Edited April 19, 2016 by Marilyn C

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, Ezra said:

I believe this would be better represented as the Revived Roman Empire, since it is not one kingdom but several kingdoms (nations).  Most commentators equate this with the European Union, which also constitutes the old Holy Roman Empire. The mixture of iron and clay shows its fundamental weakness, which is quite evident today.

Because the Antichrist will control this confederation of nations, it "shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces". The Antichrist is the Little Horn that "shall speak great words against the Most High" (Dan 7:24). He is called the Little Horn elsewhere in Daniel.

Hi Ezra,

I was wondering if you were going to pop in and share. Thank you, as it helps people consider this important scripture, when we discuss certain aspects.

So you said ` I believe this ( the feet & toes) would be better represented as the Revived Roman Empire,...`

Interesting Ezra, but can you please give me/us (who are reading) the scriptures that you base this doctrine on?

Marilyn.

[Ezra]

13 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Interesting Ezra, but can you please give me/us (who are reading) the scriptures that you base this doctrine on?

Marilyn,

As you well know, Rome is not identified in Daniel, but Babylon, Medo-Persia (Media and Persia), and Graeco-Macedonia (Grecia)are clearly identified. So we must turn to the history of the nations around the Mediterranean Sea to determine which empire succeeded Grecia. Also the character of that empire as described in Daniel.