Messiah

[Ezra]

18 minutes ago, Joline said:

I am not sure there is complete agreement here. It appears there is a question (posed to Ezra) concerning Gal 3:26-29. Which specifically or distinctly speaks of the heirs of Abraham's seed, (spoken of in Genesis)?

And Paul goes into some detail to explain in Galatians that "Abraham's seed" is not only Christ (according to promise) but all believers, both Jews and Gentiles.

ABRAHAM’S SEED -- CHRIST

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 4:16)

 

ABRAHAM’S SEED – BELIEVING GENTILES

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.  So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham... That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal 4:7-9,14)

[kwikphilly]

AHHHH,thanks Joline-lol     I see now      And BTW,I'm learning that we really do make quite the pair,I'm glad we both take the time to get on the same page,praise Jesus                                     Love,Kwik

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Ezra said:

And Paul goes into some detail to explain in Galatians that "Abraham's seed" is not only Christ (according to promise) but all believers, both Jews and Gentiles.

ABRAHAM’S SEED -- CHRIST

 

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 4:16)

 

 

 

ABRAHAM’S SEED – BELIEVING GENTILES

 

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.  So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham... That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal 4:7-9,14)

 

Yes, I fully agree here. I believe the Scripture is quite clear, Jew and Gentile are indeed equal heirs as as seed of Abraham in Christ.  the human categories of fleshly distinctions are simply non existant here, and have no force in Christ. It is a covenant of circumcision of the heart.

[Ezra]

18 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

For Gal 3:26-29, I simply ask one question. Are there still male and female physically?

Physically, but not spiritually.

This has no bearing on the issue of whether saved Jews should maintain their Jewishness within the Church. Paul says they cannot, and they must not, because God sees only redeemed saints.  In the past Hebrew Christians simply considered themselves as Christians, not Messianic Jews.

[Qnts2]

On 5/2/2016 at 5:24 PM, Ezra said:

Physically, but not spiritually.

This has no bearing on the issue of whether saved Jews should maintain their Jewishness within the Church. Paul says they cannot, and they must not, because God sees only redeemed saints.  In the past Hebrew Christians simply considered themselves as Christians, not Messianic Jews.

If you think Paul says a Jewish person does not maintain their Jewishness, then you have an argument with Paul.

Phil 3:4 If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: ⁵ circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; ⁶ as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.⁷ But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.

Paul continued to say he was a child of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew (Jew) of Hebrews (Jews).

But, according to Paul, it was not that he wasn't Jewish, or maintained that he was Jewish. Paul's point was that being Jewish did not gain him anything or any advantage before God. There is nothing about being Jewish which earns salvation, so it is counted as loss for the sake of Jesus. 

2 Cor 11:22Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I.

Again, Paul says he is a Hebrew which is the same thing as saying he is Jewish. That he is an Israelite, and that he is a descendant of Abraham. That did not change. Paul maintained his Jewishness.

I have met some Christians who seem to think that I am Jewish, is the same thing as bragging. It isn't. If you are born Jewish, in the Jewish community, in a Jewish family, it is simply who you are. It does not mean you are above or below anyone else of a different ethnicity.

To tell a Jewish person they should not maintain their Jewishness, is telling them that they are no good because they are Jewish so they are not allowed to be who they are, to speak their own language, to enjoy Jewish humor they were raised with, to like Jewish food. Paul never said that.

Hebrew Christians and Messianic Jews are the same thing. Those terms are synonyms. Hebrews was what Jewish people called themselves up until the 1950's. The term Jewish, is now used in place of Hebrews. Christian is from a Greek word, christos. A Christian is a believer in Christ. Of course Christ means annointed one. Messiah is from Hebrew (Moshiach) and means annointed one. So Christ and Messiah are synonyms. Christian and Messianic are synonyms. So why the change from Hebrew Christian to Messianic Jew? Well, it was because the term Hebrew Christian doesn't express what we believe to the Jewish community in a way the Jewish community would understand. The Hebrew Christian Alliance of America changed their name to Messianic Jewish Alliance of American in the 1970's for evangelistic purposes to the Jewish community.  

 

[Ezra]

11 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

If you think Paul says a Jewish person does not maintain their Jewishness, then you have an argument with Paul.

Phil 3:4 If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: ⁵ circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; ⁶ as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.⁷ But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.

Thanks for this quotation, since it fully supports what I have said.  Please note: But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. In other words, Paul discarded his Jewishness and his Pharisaism for Christ.  He went along with Jewish customs (as occasion required) to maintain harmony, but his teaching is quite clear -- in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile.  Why?  Because on the Cross, Christ tore down the "middle wall of partition" between Jew and Gentile, and the Old Covenant was set aside.  Peter had a hard time learning this truth, but Paul did not.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Thanks for this quotation, since it fully supports what I have said.  Please note: But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. In other words, Paul discarded his Jewishness and his Pharisaism for Christ.  He went along with Jewish customs (as occasion required) to maintain harmony, but his teaching is quite clear -- in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile.  Why?  Because on the Cross, Christ tore down the "middle wall of partition" between Jew and Gentile, and the Old Covenant was set aside.  Peter had a hard time learning this truth, but Paul did not.

While I agree with you, I believe the specific issue concerning Galatians concerns the Abrahamic promises in the covenant of circumcision. It speaks directly to the seed of Abraham and the inheritance.

In Christ we are all equal heirs, Jew and Gentile. There are no distinctions as heirs. The circumcision required in the new covenant is one of the heart, a spiritual circumcision.

The carnal circumcision has no distinction in the heavenly inheritance. Jew and gentile are both graffed into his kingdom, not of this world or this life. 

[Qnts2]

45 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Thanks for this quotation, since it fully supports what I have said.  Please note: But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. In other words, Paul discarded his Jewishness and his Pharisaism for Christ.  He went along with Jewish customs (as occasion required) to maintain harmony, but his teaching is quite clear -- in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile.  Why?  Because on the Cross, Christ tore down the "middle wall of partition" between Jew and Gentile, and the Old Covenant was set aside.  Peter had a hard time learning this truth, but Paul did not.

Paul did not discard his Jewishness. Paul discarded a belief in Judaism that the obedience to the Mosaic law was needed to draw close to God and be acceptable in His sight. No amount of law keeping gets a person saved. Paul no longer kept the law for righteousness, so he counted all of his works to be pleasing to God as loss for the sake of Jesus. As a teacher of the law, his obedience to the law was gain, but all that obedience did not save.

[Ezra]

 

16 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Paul did not discard his Jewishness.

King James Bible
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; (1 Cor 9:20).

Please note carefully what Paul says: "I became AS A Jew". In other words, he had already discarded his Jewishness, but conformed to Jewishness temporarily to win Jews.  Which also meant that temporarily he placed himself under the Law of Moses (we see this in Acts of the Apostles).

Messianic Jews have a hard time with Paul, because he is an outstanding example of a Hebrew Christian who discarded his Jewishness. He would have been the first one to tell modern Messianics "Since Jews rejected their Messiah, He is now Christ for the whole world, and there is no going back to Moses".

[Qnts2]

37 minutes ago, Ezra said:

 

King James Bible
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; (1 Cor 9:20).

Please note carefully what Paul says: "I became AS A Jew". In other words, he had already discarded his Jewishness, but conformed to Jewishness temporarily to win Jews.  Which also meant that temporarily he placed himself under the Law of Moses (we see this in Acts of the Apostles).

Messianic Jews have a hard time with Paul, because he is an outstanding example of a Hebrew Christian who discarded his Jewishness. He would have been the first one to tell modern Messianics "Since Jews rejected their Messiah, He is now Christ for the whole world, and there is no going back to Moses".

Again, Paul was Jewish. He did not become a Gentile. (Gentile means not Jewish). When a Jewish person believes on Jesus, they do not become a Gentile. Scripture is very very clear about that.

To become as a Jew was to keep the Mosaic law, or to eat as a Jew, dress as a Jew, talk like a Jew. Paul when with Gentiles, did not keep Kosher, he probably did not wear fringes, and he probably did not speak Hebrew. But, when Paul went to the Temple, he wore fringes, and spoke Hebrew, and probably kept Kosher.

Paul, whether wearing fringes or not wearing fringes, was still Jewish. If Paul had not been Jewish, he could not have entered the Temple beyond the Gentile court, but a Gentile who wears fringes still can not enter the Temple beyond the Gentile court. Paul could teach at a synagogue because he was Jewish, but a Gentile, even one who wears a prayer shawl, could not teach at a synagogue. 

I had a Messianic Jewish friend (male), who visited an Orthodox synagogue to talk to the Rabbi. The Rabbi strongly disagreed with him, and was so angry, the Rabbi told my friend that he was no longer a Jew. It was time for the service and the Rabbi went in, but quickly discovered an issue. To have the Torah reading requires what is called a minyan, which is 10 Jewish men. There were not 10 Jewish men at the service. There were only 9 Jewish men. The Rabbi quickly ran out to catch my friend. He called my friend back and asked him if he would stay for the service so there would be 10 Jewish men and they could have the Torah reading ceremony. Had my friend been a Gentile, he could not have made the required 10th male Jew.  

Added: Modern Jewish terminology for the same thing Paul is saying (became as a Jew), is 'to live as a Jew'. A Jewish person who does not 'live as a Jew' is still Jewish. To live as a Jew means to practice Kosher, and other Mosaic laws.