Messiah

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

I have told you before, the place you attended was not Messianic Judaism. It was Two House with some One Law views.

Spiderman said he was talking to a Jewish person and they were obviously talking about the Messiah. Talking to Jewish people about Jesus is good. 

Tikkun Olam does mean repairing the world. The main method practiced is giving to charity to repair the world. Per capita, Jewish people are some of the largest donators to charity.

Belonging to Israel is not viewed as initiating the messianic age. There is one extreme group of hyper-orthodox who believe that Jewish people keeping the Mosaic law will hasten the Messiah. That group tried to get Jewish people to 'lay tefillin', but after many years with no messiah, they came to the conclusion that if Gentiles would keep the Noachide laws, that would help to hasten the Messiah, so they started an effort to get Gentiles to keep the Noachide law. Those who recruit for the Noachide movement should be avoided as once they convince you to keep the Noachide laws, they will begin to teach you the Jesus is not the Messiah, and to try to convince Messianic Jews to renounce Jesus.   

Again, you are leaving out some facts concerning Tikkun olam. when you speak doing charitable works, read the article. That is RECENT belief which have cropped up in  Judaism QNTS. Historic Judaism taught it was keeping the mitzvot, and those mitzvot were Jewish Mitzvot. There is a pattern here of tending to leave things out.

The teaching that we are graffed into ISRAEL is part and parcel of this very thing. We are not graffed into Israel. We are graffed into Christs kingdom.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

 

Again, you did not attend a Messianic Judaism synagogue. You attended a Two House synagogue, which is predominantly Gentile. Since I have been on a forum you were on, I have seen many Messianic Jews tell you that you were wrong. You can not tell the difference between Messianic Judaism and Messianic Gentile movements. Many Messianic Jews have left forums dominated by Two House and One Law. Two House and One law tend to congregate in forums by the name of Messianic Judaism and some have gotten the Messianic Jews bounced or banned from their own forums. Again, you continually attack Messianic Jews making false accusations. I left of forum because of Christian Gentiles confusing Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentile movements and continually attacking Messianic Jews, falsely accusing us. 

Truthfully, I came here to enjoy pleasant discussions with genuine Christians. This is a great forum. I hate to see it become a platform to show hate towards Messianic Jews. 

And again, the OP has nothing to do with Messianic Judaism, One law or Two House, so, this is my last response to your garbage/   

Garbage, absolute garbage...... Messianic Gentile movements? Give me a break. this too a new made up term.....................

oddity of oddity is we did talk a few times on that site all those years ago.......You did not remember what you yourself told me.....Why? Because I have since changed my screen name. But oh you remember al this, but I was not Joline....LOL You told me to please not leave the movement, as they needed Gentiles like me....................I was leaving because NOBODY IN LEADERSHIP WAS DOING ANYTHING ABOUT THE HERESIES I WAS READING IN THOSE ROOMS. I was not leaving because of what was being taught by the shul I attended. Proof I did not go to a one law shul, nor was my shul two house. I could not handle the fact that the leadership were not addressing the teachings on the internet. It was you that assured me that was soon gonna change. And this kind of denial and garbage appears to be the result. That is sad qnts. Why not just have repented for not taking a leadership stand in the past and declare those teachings heresy instead of this?

[Qnts2]

On 4/26/2016 at 9:55 PM, Joline said:

Garbage, absolute garbage...... Messianic Gentile movements? Give me a break. this too a new made up term.....................

oddity of oddity is we did talk a few times on that site all those years ago.......You did not remember what you yourself told me.....Why? Because I have since changed my screen name. But oh you remember al this, but I was not Joline....LOL You told me to please not leave the movement, as they needed Gentiles like me....................I was leaving because NOBODY IN LEADERSHIP WAS DOING ANYTHING ABOUT THE HERESIES I WAS READING IN THOSE ROOMS. I was not leaving because of what was being taught by the shul I attended. Proof I did not go to a one law shul, nor was my shul two house. I could not handle the fact that the leadership were not addressing the teachings on the internet. It was you that assured me that was soon gonna change. And this kind of denial and garbage appears to be the result. That is sad qnts. Why not just have repented for not taking a leadership stand in the past and declare those teachings heresy instead of this?

I would not encourage anyone to remain in a church/synagogue they were not comfortable in. Again you misunderstood.

Gentiles who are involved in Messianic Judaism are a tremendous asset. Messianic Judaism, as I have said many many many times, is primarily an evangelistic outreach to the Jewish community, and Gentiles who have a heart to reach the Jewish people with the gospel, are more then welcome. 

However, if you were leaving a real Messianic Judaism synagogue because of a forum with mainly Two House and One Law gentiles, obviously, as I said, you can not tell the difference. So, I stand by my statements. I had repeatedly posted formal papers by Messianic Judaism leadership opposing Two House and One Law so again, you are making false accusations, and with that kind of view, you are better off not attending a church/synagogue which you obviously hated as you accuse the leaders. It is ridiculous to blame the leaders for not participating on an internet forum.

And yes, Two House and One Law are Messianic Gentile movements. They were started by Gentiles, and the leadership of Two House and One Law is almost all Gentiles (I know of maybe, 2 people who might be Jewish involved). They both attract Gentiles because some Gentiles find it attractive to think of themselves as Jews or Israel and both movements give Gentiles a place to act what they think of as Jewish, although it is more of a stereotypical type of act and not how Jewish people actually act.

I deny nothing. In the early 1990's, I had a friend (Gentile) who became attracted to Two House. I researched the movement in it's infancy and tried to explain the errors to this person but they were way to excited about the idea of being an actual physical child of Israel. For One Law, I used to moderate a chat room dedicated to sharing the gospel with Jewish people, and one of the early One Law proponents would come in to try to recruit for that movement. I fought that, and banned the One Law leader seeking a following. I also banned a Two House leader who also was trying to recruit. And I was in the room with Messianic Jewish leaders who fought both of those movements. And I have been to meetings with Messianic Judaism leaders where we discussed the problems, and formal papers were presented.  So, all of your accusations are absolutely false. 

[Ezra]

On 26/04/2016 at 7:53 PM, Joline said:

The teaching that we are graffed into ISRAEL is part and parcel of this very thing. We are not graffed into Israel. We are graffed into Christs kingdom.

Regardless of what Jews believe or disbelieve, we must affirm what Scripture affirms.  

Gentile believers are indeed grafted into believing Israel, even though all believers are in the Kingdom of God. That is precisely what we find in Scripture.  Jewish believers are represented as "the good olive tree" whereas Gentiles are represented as branches from the "wild olive tree" (Romans 11:13-25).  

Why? Because Christ came through Israel, the Gospel was first preached to Israel, it is Jews who were saved on the Day of Pentecost (not Gentiles), and throughout the Acts of the Apostles the Gospel first went to all the Jewish synagogues in the Roman Empire.

As Paul says "to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the Law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers [patriarchs], and of whom, as concerning the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen" (Rom 9:4,5).  This is significant, since Gentiles were outside all of this for hundreds of years. This also tells us that God became Man as a Hebrew.

We know that the majority of Jews rejected the Gospel and rejected Christ, but that is a separate issue.

[Qnts2]

A link to a paper written by a major Messianic Judiasm organization speaking against Two House theology, for those no familiar with it.

http://www.mjaa.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5143

A second paper written by Messianic Judaism leaders opposing One Law theology:

http://www.umjc.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/onelaw_movements_abridged.pdf

[Qnts2]

54 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Regardless of what Jews believe or disbelieve, we must affirm what Scripture affirms.  

Gentile believers are indeed grafted into believing Israel, even though all believers are in the Kingdom of God. That is precisely what we find in Scripture.  Jewish believers are represented as "the good olive tree" whereas Gentiles are represented as branches from the "wild olive tree" (Romans 11:13-25).  

Why? Because Christ came through Israel, the Gospel was first preached to Israel, it is Jews who were saved on the Day of Pentecost (not Gentiles), and throughout the Acts of the Apostles the Gospel first went to all the Jewish synagogues in the Roman Empire.

As Paul says "to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the Law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers [patriarchs], and of whom, as concerning the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen" (Rom 9:4,5).  This is significant, since Gentiles were outside all of this for hundreds of years. This also tells us that God became Man as a Hebrew.

We know that the majority of Jews rejected the Gospel and rejected Christ, but that is a separate issue.

Actually, it is pertinent that most of the Jewish people have rejected Jesus at this time. 

Romans 11:15  For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? ¹⁶ If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. ¹⁷ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, ¹⁸ do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. ¹⁹ You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” ²⁰ Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; ²¹ for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

The children of Israel are the natural branches. Some of the natural branches are broken off. What are the natural branches? Israel. Some of Israel has been broken off. The broken off branches have not ceased to be children of Israel.

The wild olive branches are Gentile who have been grafted into the rich root of the olive tree. The rich root, is not Israel. Israel is branches. It is the root which supports those grafted in, and the root is not Israel. In Hebraisms, the root is part of the trunk. Gentile branches were not grafted into Israel branches. Gentile branches are supported by the root. Israel branches which are on the tree are supported by the root. So, what is the root? Jesus. Both Jews and Gentiles who have faith in Jesus are supported by Jesus. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

I would not encourage anyone to remain in a church/synagogue they were not comfortable in. Again you misunderstood.

Gentiles who are involved in Messianic Judaism are a tremendous asset. Messianic Judaism, as I have said many many many times, is primarily an evangelistic outreach to the Jewish community, and Gentiles who have a heart to reach the Jewish people with the gospel, are more then welcome. 

However, if you were leaving a real Messianic Judaism synagogue because of a forum with mainly Two House and One Law gentiles, obviously, as I said, you can not tell the difference. So, I stand by my statements. I had repeatedly posted formal papers by Messianic Judaism leadership opposing Two House and One Law so again, you are making false accusations, and with that kind of view, you are better off not attending a church/synagogue which you obviously hated as you accuse the leaders. It is ridiculous to blame the leaders for not participating on an internet forum.

And yes, Two House and One Law are Messianic Gentile movements. They were started by Gentiles, and the leadership of Two House and One Law is almost all Gentiles (I know of maybe, 2 people who might be Jewish involved). They both attract Gentiles because some Gentiles find it attractive to think of themselves as Jews or Israel and both movements give Gentiles a place to act what they think of as Jewish, although it is more of a stereotypical type of act and not how Jewish people actually act.

I deny nothing. In the early 1990's, I had a friend (Gentile) who became attracted to Two House. I researched the movement in it's infancy and tried to explain the errors to this person but they were way to excited about the idea of being an actual physical child of Israel. For One Law, I used to moderate a chat room dedicated to sharing the gospel with Jewish people, and one of the early One Law proponents would come in to try to recruit for that movement. I fought that, and banned the One Law leader seeking a following. I also banned a Two House leader who also was trying to recruit. And I was in the room with Messianic Jewish leaders who fought both of those movements. And I have been to meetings with Messianic Judaism leaders where we discussed the problems, and formal papers were presented.  So, all of your accusations are absolutely false. 

You, once again have misrepresented what I said, and have said to you before. What I am talking about is your mention of staying with a synagogue though I accuse the leaders. No, No Let me say it again qnts. I am accusing the leadership within the movement, for allowing all kinds of teachings as Messianics.

You are not the only Jew Who has been involved with leadership Qnts. You do not speak for leadership, you do not speak for Messianic Judaism. As I have heard all the things you are saying of yourself before from others. They were teachers by the authority of some in leadership, Except they were standing on the one law side of things, promoting it. As well as it was not just one like with you. I have had many discussions with a Jew which knew Moshe Rosen personally. When Messianics were even going against Jew's for Jesus, as not BEING Messianic, but Just Jewish Christians. The stuff that was sold at Mjaa conferences. In short you are not the only one which has known these people and worked with them. Besides, you are misrepresenting what we have discussed in the past, as you did not remember me Qnts. So you could not possibly remember all these so called conversations between me and other Jews on that board. So, that you know these people, and attended meetings, SO what. I personally could not rely on your account of anything much even if you had.

So Qnts I will continue to present my views, based upon what I know.  You have no authority to Define what is and isn't Messianic Judaism. Therefore I will continue to address one law Ideas as those which are part of that movement.  

[Qnts2]

1 minute ago, Joline said:

You, once again have misrepresented what I said, and have said to you before.

You are not the only Jew Who has been involved with leadership Qnts. You do not speak for leadership, you do not speak for Messianic Judaism. As I have heard all the things you are saying of yourself before from others. They were teachers by the authority of some in leadership, Except they were standing on the one law side of things, promoting it. As well as it was not just one like with you. I have had many discussions with a Jew which knew Moshe Rosen personally. When Messianics were even going against Jew's for Jesus, as not BEING Messianic, but Just Jewish Christians. The stuff that was sold at Mjaa conferences.

So Qnts I will continue to present my views, based upon what I know.  You have no authority to Define what is and isn't Messianic Judaism. Therefore I will continue to address one law Ideas as those which are part of that movement.  

I have already presented the official stance of the two largest Messianic Judaism organizations on One Law theology, so again, you are misrepresenting the stance of Messianic Judaism.

Moishe Rosen was a good personal friend. Moishe Rosen was a friend of many in leadership of Messianic Judaism. Many of the missionaries of Jews for Jesus attend Messianic Judaism congregations. Many of us met yearly at a leadership conference to discuss evangelism and other issues.

A brief explanation of Messianic Judaism from the MJAA, the largest Messianic Judaism organization.

http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer?pagename=rd_messianicmovement_messianic_judaism

Messianic Judaism is a Biblically based movement of people who, as committed Jews, believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Jewish Messiah of Israel of whom the Jewish Law and Prophets spoke.

To many this seems a glaring contradiction. Christians are Christians, Jews are decidedly not Christian. So goes the understanding that has prevailed through nearly two thousand years of history.

Messianic Jews call this a mistaken - and even anti-Scriptural - understanding.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

I have already presented the official stance of the two largest Messianic Judaism organizations on One Law theology, so again, you are misrepresenting the stance of Messianic Judaism.

Moishe Rosen was a good personal friend. Moishe Rosen was a friend of many in leadership of Messianic Judaism. Many of the missionaries of Jews for Jesus attend Messianic Judaism congregations. Many of us met yearly at a leadership conference to discuss evangelism and other issues.

A brief explanation of Messianic Judaism from the MJAA, the largest Messianic Judaism organization.

http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer?pagename=rd_messianicmovement_messianic_judaism

Messianic Judaism is a Biblically based movement of people who, as committed Jews, believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Jewish Messiah of Israel of whom the Jewish Law and Prophets spoke.

To many this seems a glaring contradiction. Christians are Christians, Jews are decidedly not Christian. So goes the understanding that has prevailed through nearly two thousand years of history.

Messianic Jews call this a mistaken - and even anti-Scriptural - understanding.

Here is what the umjc says in it's defining of Messianic Judaism.

GROUPS.....May also include those from non-jewish backgrounds who have a confirmed called to participate fully in the life and destiny of The Jewish people.

Defining Messianic Judaism

Home / Core Values / Defining Messianic Judaism

 

 

Basic Statement

The Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC) envisions Messianic Judaism as a movement of Jewish congregations and groups committed to Yeshua the Messiah that embrace the covenantal responsibility of Jewish life and identity rooted in Torah, expressed in tradition, and renewed and applied in the context of the New Covenant. Messianic Jewish groups may also include those from non-Jewish backgrounds who have a confirmed call to participate fully in the life and destiny of the Jewish people. We are committed to embodying this definition in our constituent congregations and in our shared institutions.

Expanded Statement

Jewish life is life in a concrete, historical community. Thus, Messianic Jewish groups must be fully part of the Jewish people, sharing its history and its covenantal responsibility as a people chosen by God. At the same time, faith in Yeshua also has a crucial communal dimension. This faith unites the Messianic Jewish community and the Christian Church, which is the assembly of the faithful from the nations who are joined to Israel through the Messiah.  Together the Messianic Jewish community and the Christian Church constitute the ekklesia, the one Body of Messiah, a community of Jews and Gentiles who in their ongoing distinction and mutual blessing anticipate the shalom of the world to come.

For a Messianic Jewish group 1) to fulfill the covenantal responsibility incumbent upon all Jews, 2) to bear witness to Yeshua within the people of Israel, and 3) to serve as an authentic and effective representative of the Jewish people within the body of Messiah, it must place a priority on integration with  the wider Jewish world, while sustaining a vital corporate relationship with the Christian Church.
s, 2) to bear witness to Yeshua within the people of Israel, and 3) to serve as an authentic and effective representative of the Jewish people within the body of Messiah, it must place a priority on integration with  the wider Jewish world, while sustaining a vital corporate relationship with the Christian Church.

In the Messianic Jewish way of life, we seek to fulfill Israel’s covenantal responsibility embodied in the Torah within a New Covenant context. Messianic Jewish halakhah is rooted in Scripture (Tanakh and the New Covenant writings), which is of unique sanctity and authority. It also draws upon Jewish tradition, especially those practices and concepts that have won near-universal acceptance by devout Jews through the centuries. Furthermore, as is common within Judaism, Messianic Judaism recognizes that halakhah is and must be dynamic, involving the application of the Torah to a wide variety of changing situations and circumstances.

Messianic Judaism embraces the fullness of New Covenant realities available through Yeshua, and seeks to express them in forms drawn from Jewish experience and accessible to Jewish people.

UMJC Theology Committee; affirmed by delegate vote, July 20, 2005.

[Qnts2]

25 minutes ago, Joline said:

Here is what the umjc says in it's defining of Messianic Judaism.

GROUPS.....May also include those from non-jewish backgrounds who have a confirmed called to participate fully in the life and destiny of The Jewish people.

Defining Messianic Judaism

Home / Core Values / Defining Messianic Judaism

 

 

Basic Statement

The Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC) envisions Messianic Judaism as a movement of Jewish congregations and groups committed to Yeshua the Messiah that embrace the covenantal responsibility of Jewish life and identity rooted in Torah, expressed in tradition, and renewed and applied in the context of the New Covenant. Messianic Jewish groups may also include those from non-Jewish backgrounds who have a confirmed call to participate fully in the life and destiny of the Jewish people. We are committed to embodying this definition in our constituent congregations and in our shared institutions.

Expanded Statement

Jewish life is life in a concrete, historical community. Thus, Messianic Jewish groups must be fully part of the Jewish people, sharing its history and its covenantal responsibility as a people chosen by God. At the same time, faith in Yeshua also has a crucial communal dimension. This faith unites the Messianic Jewish community and the Christian Church, which is the assembly of the faithful from the nations who are joined to Israel through the Messiah.  Together the Messianic Jewish community and the Christian Church constitute the ekklesia, the one Body of Messiah, a community of Jews and Gentiles who in their ongoing distinction and mutual blessing anticipate the shalom of the world to come.

For a Messianic Jewish group 1) to fulfill the covenantal responsibility incumbent upon all Jews, 2) to bear witness to Yeshua within the people of Israel, and 3) to serve as an authentic and effective representative of the Jewish people within the body of Messiah, it must place a priority on integration with  the wider Jewish world, while sustaining a vital corporate relationship with the Christian Church.
s, 2) to bear witness to Yeshua within the people of Israel, and 3) to serve as an authentic and effective representative of the Jewish people within the body of Messiah, it must place a priority on integration with  the wider Jewish world, while sustaining a vital corporate relationship with the Christian Church.

In the Messianic Jewish way of life, we seek to fulfill Israel’s covenantal responsibility embodied in the Torah within a New Covenant context. Messianic Jewish halakhah is rooted in Scripture (Tanakh and the New Covenant writings), which is of unique sanctity and authority. It also draws upon Jewish tradition, especially those practices and concepts that have won near-universal acceptance by devout Jews through the centuries. Furthermore, as is common within Judaism, Messianic Judaism recognizes that halakhah is and must be dynamic, involving the application of the Torah to a wide variety of changing situations and circumstances.

Messianic Judaism embraces the fullness of New Covenant realities available through Yeshua, and seeks to express them in forms drawn from Jewish experience and accessible to Jewish people.

UMJC Theology Committee; affirmed by delegate vote, July 20, 2005.

But you missed the article I posted written by the President of the UMJC, Russ Resnick, which opposes One Law. Don't confuse One Law with a covenantal responsibility of Jewish people. One Law teaches that the Mosaic law is binding on Gentiles who believe in Jesus. The UMJC does not believe the Mosaic law is binding on Gentiles so is opposed to One Law.

Note: Messianic Judaism embraces the fullness of New Covenant realities available through Yeshua, and seeks to express them in forms drawn from Jewish experience and accessible to Jewish people.

http://www.umjc.org/does-the-umjc-practice-conversion/

The issue is not whether Gentiles should or must become Jews to attain full status in the Body of Messiah. All Messianic Jews agree this issue was settled by the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem in C.E. 49 (Acts 15). Believers from among the nations were not required to accept the yoke of the Torah, but only the basic biblical principles referred to as the Seven Laws of Noah in the rabbinic literature.

It should be noted that the paper referenced is a summary of a debate whether Gentiles who believe in Jesus and desire to be Jewish should have a method to convert to Judaism. This is an active and volitile debate in the UMJC. Some Gentiles are pressuring the UMJC to be allowed to be considered Jewish so some in the UMJC leadership have set up a practice of conversion. Others are extremely opposed to that as unbiblical. I land on the side of opposing Gentile believers to 'become Jewish', as I see it as in opposition to the NT. 

I should also be noted, that the UMJC strongly opposes One Law and the definition of covenental responsibility of Jewish believers is widely different. The UMJC does not practice an Orthodox form of Judaism, and those who do practice a form of Kosher, will eat with Gentiles when the Gentiles serve non-kosher food to maintain fellowship with all believers.  

From the UMJC statement of faith:

Messiah’s community is a single community expressed in diverse forms within the Jewish community and among the nations. All are called to a dedicated life of worship, neighborly service, and public testimony to Yeshua. Unity and love throughout the entire community confirm Yeshua’s role, as the One sent by the Father, and God’s purpose in Messiah for Israel and the Nations.

That statement means that the UMJC recognizes that all believers in Jesus are one community, (Jews, Gentiles, whether a person identifies as Messianic or Christian). This statement was added as some wanted to separate from Christianity as a different religion. So, this statement was added to oppose a separation mentality of some as all believers are one.