Waiting for their Messiah

[Watching for Jesus]

6 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again "Watching for Jesus",

 

Without directly answering Ezra or your previous perception of events, I suggest that you have a brief look at the Antichrist article on Wiki, especially the paragraphs “Protestants”, Roman Catholicism” and “Futurism”. I actually believe that just as Jesus did not openly endorse the religious systems and leaders of his day, so at his return he will at first return only to the faithful and those who love his appearing. Those that subscribe to wrong teaching such as the concept of the Antichrist setting up the 3^rd Temple will actually oppose Christ at his coming

 

Kind regards

Trevor

Hi Trevor,

I am aware of the historicism and preterism views on eschatology.  I can see where events of the past seem to have fulfilled many of the prophecies.  The problem is; Jesus hasn't returned yet.  I see a future fulfillment of the prophecies that historicism and preterism say have been fulfilled, leading up to the Second Coming of Christ.

If I am wrong and there is no third Temple built or no antichrist to come, I do not believe that Jesus will hold that against me.  I do not believe that the Holy Spirit would allow me to oppose Jesus when He returns.  Just as I believe Jesus will not hold anything against those who have the wrong opinion of when the rapture will occur.

I Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Jeff

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jeff (“Watching for Jesus”),

15 hours ago, Watching for Jesus said:

I am aware of the historicism and preterism views on eschatology.  I can see where events of the past seem to have fulfilled many of the prophecies.  The problem is; Jesus hasn't returned yet.  I see a future fulfillment of the prophecies that historicism and preterism say have been fulfilled, leading up to the Second Coming of Christ.

If I am wrong and there is no third Temple built or no antichrist to come, I do not believe that Jesus will hold that against me.  I do not believe that the Holy Spirit would allow me to oppose Jesus when He returns.  Just as I believe Jesus will not hold anything against those who have the wrong opinion of when the rapture will occur.

I personally believe in historicism or the continuous historic view of prophecy and this is based on Daniel 2 and other prophecies. I can agree with what you say in general, but it is easy to follow many wrong concepts that have been introduced. Especially if this view was introduced by a Jesuit. I am a bit reticent to endorse a view because someone feels that they are Spirit-guided. My experience is that many that claim Spirit guidance disagree amongst themselves and contradict the plain teaching of the Bible. I do not believe that we will attain to a full understanding of the full sequence of events, but we need to continually and sincerely and humbly seek God’s revelation and guidance.

 

Please note what is stated concerning the development of the Antichrist system, and I believe that this process commenced in the times of the Apostles: 

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (KJV): 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I do not look for an unknown future antichrist, nor do I believe that he will build the 3rd Temple. I believe that the future and present Antichrist is the Papacy. Daniel 7 is an introduction to this subject - get this wrong and the subject is not on a firm basis of understanding.

 

I like the suggestion that although many were looking for the first coming of Jesus, how many would have anticipated the sequence and details of those events. Consider the three prophecies concerning Bethlehem, calling God’s Son out of Egypt, and that he was to be a Nazarene. The remarkable details concerning Bethlehem, and then the obscurity of the Egypt and Nazarene prophecies would not have been anticipated. Also how few were chosen to witness and be involved in these events. Consider the obscurity of the Magi from the east, the anxiety of those in positions of power and influence in Jerusalem, the shepherds in the fields, and Simeon and Anna.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Watching for Jesus]

6 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Jeff (“Watching for Jesus”),

I personally believe in historicism or the continuous historic view of prophecy and this is based on Daniel 2 and other prophecies. I can agree with what you say in general, but it is easy to follow many wrong concepts that have been introduced. Especially if this view was introduced by a Jesuit. I am a bit reticent to endorse a view because someone feels that they are Spirit-guided. My experience is that many that claim Spirit guidance disagree amongst themselves and contradict the plain teaching of the Bible. I do not believe that we will attain to a full understanding of the full sequence of events, but we need to continually and sincerely and humbly seek God’s revelation and guidance.

 

Please note what is stated concerning the development of the Antichrist system, and I believe that this process commenced in the times of the Apostles: 

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (KJV): 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I do not look for an unknown future antichrist, nor do I believe that he will build the 3rd Temple. I believe that the future and present Antichrist is the Papacy. Daniel 7 is an introduction to this subject - get this wrong and the subject is not on a firm basis of understanding.

 

I like the suggestion that although many were looking for the first coming of Jesus, how many would have anticipated the sequence and details of those events. Consider the three prophecies concerning Bethlehem, calling God’s Son out of Egypt, and that he was to be a Nazarene. The remarkable details concerning Bethlehem, and then the obscurity of the Egypt and Nazarene prophecies would not have been anticipated. Also how few were chosen to witness and be involved in these events. Consider the obscurity of the Magi from the east, the anxiety of those in positions of power and influence in Jerusalem, the shepherds in the fields, and Simeon and Anna.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

Hi Trevor,

I believe the prophecies of the "little horn" of Daniel (who is also the mouth of the beast in Revelation 13:5-8), are telling us about a future evil world leader, the beast, aka the antichrist.  Do you believe the "little horn" has already come?

As for the Papacy, I believe that is Mystery, Babylon of Revelation 17 who rides along with the beast (a coming world government).

Jeff

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jeff (“Watching for Jesus”),

 

On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 9:53 PM, Watching for Jesus said:

I believe the prophecies of the "little horn" of Daniel (who is also the mouth of the beast in Revelation 13:5-8), are telling us about a future evil world leader, the beast, aka the antichrist.  Do you believe the "little horn" has already come?

 

Yes I believe the little horn of the 4^th beast has already come. A brief overview of Daniel 7:

1. There are four successive kingdoms, Assyria-Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.
2. As Rome started to decline the kingdom was divided into various kingdoms
3. Out of one of these another power arose, the Papacy, and he came to possess three states, known as the Papal States.
4. The Papacy persecuted any religious opposition, including the faithful
5. When Christ returns he will judge and dispossess the Papacy

On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 9:53 PM, Watching for Jesus said:

As for the Papacy, I believe that is Mystery, Babylon of Revelation 17 who rides along with the beast (a coming world government).

 

I accept what you say here. I understand Revelation 17 mainly describes events after Armageddon.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Ezra]

On 28/04/2016 at 7:08 AM, Watching for Jesus said:

Is it possible that a man, other than the antichrist, will come to fulfill the role of the Mashiach to the Jewish people and also be Dajjal to the Muslim world; their false messiah?

There comes a point at which speculation comes into play and we should avoid speculation as much as possible.  What we can say with absolute certainty is that (1) Daniel's 70th week is yet to be fulfilled, (2) the Antichrist will take control of this world for 3 1/2 years, and (3) he will set up an image in the future Temple at Jerusalem, and (4) it will be worshipped by all who are on earth (other than the Tribulation saints).

Our primary concerns should be the propagation of the Gospel, the salvation of souls, and the edification of the saints.

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, TrevorL said:

I accept what you say here. I understand Revelation 17 mainly describes events after Armageddon.

Since Armageddon is described in Revelation 19 (also mentioned in Rev 14) this is not possible.

[TrevorL]

Greetings Ezra,

 

4 hours ago, Ezra said:

There comes a point at which speculation comes into play and we should avoid speculation as much as possible.

I agree with this sentiment, but then you state a number of items that represent a certain school of thought and with it you label these ideas as “absolute certainty”.

4 hours ago, Ezra said:

What we can say with absolute certainty is that (1) Daniel's 70th week is yet to be fulfilled

This appears to be very speculative as there is no reason to split the 70th week from the rest of the weeks, especially when this requires a 2000 year gap.

4 hours ago, Ezra said:

(2) the Antichrist will take control of this world for 3 1/2 years

The usual and in my opinion the correct understanding of this is that the 3 1/2 years should be taken as 1260 years on the day for a year principle.

4 hours ago, Ezra said:

(3) he will set up an image in the future Temple at Jerusalem, and (4) it will be worshipped by all who are on earth (other than the Tribulation saints).

 

The next Temple in Jerusalem, the 3rd, will be established by Jesus at his return. There will be no idolatry in this Temple nor false worship.

 

4 hours ago, Ezra said:

Since Armageddon is described in Revelation 19 (also mentioned in Rev 14) this is not possible.

 

I believe that Revelation 17 mainly follows after Revelation 16 and Revelation 16 is the only occurrence of the word Armageddon in the Bible. Revelation 16 and 17 are sequential.

 

Kind regards Trevor

[Watching for Jesus]

8 hours ago, Ezra said:

There comes a point at which speculation comes into play and we should avoid speculation as much as possible.  What we can say with absolute certainty is that (1) Daniel's 70th week is yet to be fulfilled, (2) the Antichrist will take control of this world for 3 1/2 years, and (3) he will set up an image in the future Temple at Jerusalem, and (4) it will be worshipped by all who are on earth (other than the Tribulation saints).

Our primary concerns should be the propagation of the Gospel, the salvation of souls, and the edification of the saints.

Hi Ezra,

 

I do what I can to spread the Gospel, but the Lord has placed on my heart a great desire to understand the end time prophecies.

 

I posted this topic because I do not see how the actions of the antichrist fulfill the role of an expected Jewish Messiah.  I mentioned that the antichrist and the Messiah could possibly be two different men because of something I recently noticed while reading Daniel.

 

Daniel 11:21.  And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

 22.  And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

 

I believe the “vile person” spoken of here is the soon to come “little horn” aka the antichrist.  I have always thought that the “prince of the covenant” referred to the same man, but the verse implies that the “prince of the covenant” will be broken by the “vile person”.  This is why I asked if there could possibly be two men coming to sign the covenant with many; a false Jewish Messiah and the antichrist.

 

Jeff

[kwikphilly]

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Since we know that Daniel's 70th week must be fulfilled, we can be sure that (a) a temple will be built in Jerusalem by the Jews, (b) the Antichrist (the Beast) will be revealed with signs and lying wonders, (c) the Jews will receive him as their Messiah, (d) he will deceive them and set up the Abomination of Desolation in the Temple.  This will trigger the Great Tribulation.

Blessings Ezra,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,clear & concise,Amen! And yes,I agree with the term "hijack" you used,very appropriate

Quote

The Antichrist will not necessarily build the Temple, but he will definitely hijack the Temple. First he will put a stop to the daily sacrifices, then he will set up the Abomination of Desolation, after which he will claim to be God (from within the Temple).

Quote

There comes a point at which speculation comes into play and we should avoid speculation as much as possible.  What we can say with absolute certainty is that (1) Daniel's 70th week is yet to be fulfilled, (2) the Antichrist will take control of this world for 3 1/2 years, and (3) he will set up an image in the future Temple at Jerusalem, and (4) it will be worshipped by all who are on earth (other than the Tribulation saints).

Our primary concerns should be the propagation of the Gospel, the salvation of souls, and the edification of the saints.

Once again,spot on,,,,Amen Brother! Amen!                      To God be the Glory!                     With love-in Christ,Kwik

Truly,nothing to add,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Esther4:14]

11 hours ago, Watching for Jesus said:

Hi Ezra,

 

I do what I can to spread the Gospel, but the Lord has placed on my heart a great desire to understand the end time prophecies.

 

I posted this topic because I do not see how the actions of the antichrist fulfill the role of an expected Jewish Messiah.  I mentioned that the antichrist and the Messiah could possibly be two different men because of something I recently noticed while reading Daniel.

 

Daniel 11:21.  And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

 22.  And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

 

I believe the “vile person” spoken of here is the soon to come “little horn” aka the antichrist.  I have always thought that the “prince of the covenant” referred to the same man, but the verse implies that the “prince of the covenant” will be broken by the “vile person”.  This is why I asked if there could possibly be two men coming to sign the covenant with many; a false Jewish Messiah and the antichrist.

 

Jeff

Hi WFJ, 

I think you have made a good point.  I see what you are saying.  However, I do believe that the a false Jewish Messiah will be the Antichrist.  

First, there are many reasons that I think that the Antichrist has to be a false Messiah of the Jewish people.  For one, the Bible says that the world will worship the beast (Revelation 13:4).  This cannot be accomplished by someone seeking to represent the people of Islam because there is no way that the Christian world would ever worship a Islamic Messiah.  However, they could worship a Jewish Messiah if that is not painfully obvious by the complete disregard the church has in the modern time for every mention of the multitudes of false doctrines that are passed around like fascinating artifacts giving the Jewish people a sort of celebrity in the modern day.  It does not matter that Judaism remains in the state that it was in when Christ came and rebuked the leaders in Judaism, somehow these same teachings are fascinating to us as though in this pile of false teachings, the Jewish people still have something to offer from this mire to the Christian church that they did not have before the present infiltration of Judaism into Christianity.  This defines a beast.  

Then, there is the mortal wound that the beast is supposed to receive, and the prophets frequently tell us in scripture that the wound of Israel was without healing.  

" Your injury is incurable;
your wound most severe.
¹³ No one takes up the case for your sores.
There is no healing for you" (Jeremiah 30:12).  

And, for some time now, the Jewish question has been a subject for the world.  What to do with the Jewish people, because this wound caused them to be scattered throughout the nations.  However, if they are healed of this wound, and Israel is restored, then the prophecy would be fulfilled that the wound of the beast was healed and it would cause the world to worship him because of establishing what Leon Pinsker refers to as Auto-Emancipation (Revelation 13:3).  You can read this work here if you would like https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/pinsker.html  Basically, what Pinsker suggests is that no one is going to help the Jew establish a national identity for itself but the Jewish nation themselves.  He mentions that they were scattered, but makes no mentions that this was because of the judgement the Lord made that they would be scattered for their disobedience.  He complains that they is discrimination against them, even in most Western countries, they are some of the wealthiest people in that country.  You could even say they dominant certain fields.  What he means to say, is that the nations do not worship them as they should because they are superior.  However, then he criticizes the Jewish people for not striving to return to a national identity rather than settling with the diaspora that was part of His judgement for Israel's disobedience.  

"But the greatest impediment in the path of the Jews to an independent national existence is that they do not feel its need. Not only that, but they go so far as to deny its authenticity,"  

Hmm, maybe people don't feel the need for an independent national existence because they are not suffering in the nations they are residing in the way we are being led to believe.  

Nonetheless, some feel this is of some great significance to have a "national identity."  

So, somehow this has to be accomplished whether or not it is His will for this to happen or not.  Auto emancipation is the same thing as Israel wanting a king in many ways.  But, this is clearly not something that is happening by any miraculous event like the parting of the seas.  So, inevitably, to heal the wound, there will have to be a war.  So, how is it reconciled in Judaism to have a Messiah who wages war to heal of the wound by reclaiming a national identity.  

Well, according to The Messiah Texts: Jewish Legends of Three Thousand Years:

"When the death of the Messiah became an established tenet in Talmudic times, this was felt to be irreconcilable with the belief in the Messiah as the Redeemer who would usher in the blissful millennium of the Messianic age.  The dilemma was solved by splitting the person of the Messiah in two: one of them, called Messiah be Joseph, was to raise the armies of Israel against their enemies, and, after many victories and miracles, would fall victim to Gog and Magog.  The other, Messiah be David, will come after him (in some legends will bring him back to life, which psychologically hints at the identity of the two), and will lead Israel to the ultimate victory, the triumph, and the Messianic era of bliss."  http://tinyurl.com/gqgcsqy

Whatever kind of nonsense this is, we know that this is clearly wrong for more than one reason.  However, we can see the fulfillment of the same vision of auto-emancipation that could be justified through this rabbinical interpretation.  No one even has to believe this in order for them to use this to justify the actions of the beast.  I do also believe that it is pretty clear that we can see in the Messianic rabbinical literature, what we call tribulation, they call entering the Messianic age.  So, our sense of prophecy is no where near anything to suggest that Christianity even shares an identity with those who call themselves Jews and believe that being a Son of Abraham is something similar to being like God's.  

We can also see the presence of two "Messiahs;" however, in the book of Revelation we have a beast and false prophet that exercises authority on behalf of the first beast and brings about the worship of the image.  

However, Daniel 11:21 refers to a beast, or the first Messiah.  But, Daniel 11:39 says " He will greatly honor those who acknowledge him, making them rulers over many and distributing land as a reward."  In other words the false prophet will exercise authority on his behalf.  

But, the beast would have to be the false Messiah, or maybe on the other hand, they both could be.  

"It is important that they know that He is the Lord when all is said and done, we can see that the prophecy involves judgement concerning the world, and not just Israel.  But, it was Israel who was given the judgement of the 70 weeks."  When the 70 weeks are completed, " They will know that I am Yahweh when I make the land a desolate waste because of all the detestable acts they have committed," (Ezekiel 33:29), and all His judgement are righteous and just.  

"I heard the angel of the waters say:

You are righteous,
who is and who was, the Holy One,
for You have decided these things.
 Because they poured out
the blood of the saints and the prophets,
You also gave them blood to drink;
they deserve it!" (Revelation 16:5-6). 

So, that is my take.  Sorry if I am a little long winded, but I find it difficult to discuss things like this without presenting making sure that I have included sources that will allow you to reference what I am saying, and not just feel like I expect anyone to take my word for it.  

Bless you in your pursuit of truth.