OldSchool2 Posted May 11, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 701 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,511 Content Per Day: 1.35 Reputation: 1,759 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/18/1955 Share Posted May 11, 2016 from UCI News: "Everything Christians do should be based upon the Biblical text. Here are seven solid Bible reasons why Christians should support Israel...." http://unitycoalitionforisrael.org/?p=18175 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esther4:14 Posted May 11, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 603 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 628 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/07/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted May 11, 2016 The organization who put this together is not a Christian organization. The reasons that they suggest supporting Israel all have something to do with gaining prosperity. Therefore, I would consider them to preach something of a prosperity gospel in order to gain support for their cause. They also fail to recognize that the reason why the Jews were expelled from the land for their disobedience. Jeremiah 7:14-16 "Therefore, what I did to Shiloh I will now do to the house that bears my Name, the temple you trust in, the place I gave to you and your ancestors. I will thrust you from my presence, just as I did all your fellow Israelites, the people of Ephraim.’ “So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you," I would also like to point out how Jeremiah was told not to pray for them because of their disobedience, which contradicts the advertisement this group is sending that we will blessed or cursed depending on whether we bless or curse Israel (Genesis 12:3). This could only be a concern if the people were walking in obedience the way they were supposed to, and in order to walk in obedience today, they would have to repent and accept Christ's death on the cross for forgiveness of sin. Until this time, this blessing or curse threat is just propaganda directed at the church. The judgement given by Jeremiah wasn't something new He though of either, it was also in accordance to word He gave to Moses about what He would do if the people rebelled. " The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you" (Deuteronomy 28:36-37). So when the UCI is able to recognize how Israel has repented in order to be established in His favor again as the separate entity from the church that they want to be, then I would support Israel. However, I highly doubt that this will ever happen because all I ever hear is that they are persecuted as though what the Bible says happened to Israel as whole was just some unfair thing that I should be sympathetic with. Was God unfair in expelling the people from the land? No! Therefore, the only thing I support is the possibility that the few will be able to break away from the false teachings in Judaism in order to accept Jesus as their Messiah. I do not support building the home of the beast and the false prophet, which is what I believe establishing Israel without repentance will accomplish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSchool2 Posted May 13, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 701 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,511 Content Per Day: 1.35 Reputation: 1,759 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/18/1955 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 On 5/11/2016 at 4:45 PM, Esther4:14 said: The organization who put this together is not a Christian organization. The reasons that they suggest supporting Israel all have something to do with gaining prosperity.... Unfortunately the website is down so I can't access the link to disprove your claim that every biblical reason had to do with prosperity. Hopefully the site will be up later today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSchool2 Posted May 13, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 701 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,511 Content Per Day: 1.35 Reputation: 1,759 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/18/1955 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 On 5/11/2016 at 4:45 PM, Esther4:14 said: The organization who put this together is not a Christian organization. The reasons that they suggest supporting Israel all have something to do with gaining prosperity.... What do the following reasons have to do with "gaining prosperity"? "Christians owe a debt of eternal gratitude to the Jewish people for their contributions that gave birth to the Christian faith.... "While some Christians try to deny the connection between Jesus of Nazareth and the Jews of the world, Jesus never denied his Jewishness.... "We support Israel because all other nations were created by an act of men, but Israel was created by an act of God!..." And as for UCI,"the Unity Coalition for Israel has convened an alliance of Christian and Jewish organizations actively working together to generate support for the State of Israel. With more than 200 autonomous partners, representing more than 40 million Americans, we are the largest network of Pro-Israel groups in the world. Through this grassroots coalition, we deliver a much-needed message to the media and Congress." UCI is a Judeo-Christian organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esther4:14 Posted May 13, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 603 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 628 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/07/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted May 13, 2016 2 hours ago, OldSchool2 said: What do the following reasons have to do with "gaining prosperity"? "Christians owe a debt of eternal gratitude to the Jewish people for their contributions that gave birth to the Christian faith.... Well, actually if you read the Old Testament, we owe a debt of gratitude to a handful of people who decided to serve the Lord despite the persecution of the Jews. Additionally, after two thousand years of growth in the Christian church that is directly the result of humbling one of the chief persecutors, I would have to say that He does not consider the church that follows His Son to be indebted to the remaining group who continues to deny His Son. Therefore, I believe the church will only continue to suffer negative consequences if they try to help those who believe that worshiping the Son is an act of idolatry. The church owes nothing to the Jews because we would not exist if the Jews were not humbled throughout the years for their rejection of Christ. Raising up a Jewish nation will only usher in a new wave of persecution of the church that is spoken of in the prophecy. "While some Christians try to deny the connection between Jesus of Nazareth and the Jews of the world, Jesus never denied his Jewishness.... While Jesus may have never denied His Jewishness, the Jewish community has also denied His Jewishness and, more importantly, denies that He is the Messiah. So using the fact that Jesus was Jewish as a card to support the number one reason to support Israel stated in the article which was related to how He told Abraham He would bless those who bless the sons of Abraham and curse those who don't, or like I said presenting something like a prosperity gospel, contradicts the words of the prophets themselves during times of Israel's rebellion. Too bad we seem to have so few with discernment who are able to see that this blessing or curse means nothing if there is disobedience according to the prophets. He can and did take away the provision of Israel once and He can do it again and there is nothing that the church or the Jewish lobbyists for Israel can do to stop Him the same way they weren't able to stop themselves from being taken away to Babylon. And it is sad, but it is even sadder to use this as an advertisement to gain support from a group of people to make it seem right for them to give away their privilege and authority that they have gained through being obedient to the Son to a band of deceitful people who do not have their welfare in mind. "We support Israel because all other nations were created by an act of men, but Israel was created by an act of God!... This seems to be another great claim reiterating the primary reason to support Israel, which is that He will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. We have just made that verse of scripture to be nothing more than superstition. These great claims deceive the church into supporting a nation who say they were created by God, but deny the Son (Matthew 24:24). They perform great signs and wonders claiming that Jesus is Jewish trying to get people to believe that it is safe to support them gaining power as a nation not taking the time to realize that the church would not exist if the nation that calls themselves decedents of Abraham had not lost their battle for independence and the temple they were still using 70 years after His resurrection. The church had a right to claim righteous persecution, people who call themselves decedents of Abraham who deny the Son do not. They were humbled so the church called by His name could accomplish the work set before them to bring the Gospel to the nations. However, I don't even know if this will be true in the day that Israel turns and begins persecuting the church again because we will be guilty of apostasy for helping to create the monster that could convict us all of idolatry and sentence us to death according to the same laws that killed Jesus. Either way, if Israel is created by an act of God, why do they need help from Christians? Maybe because the church has the authority to make it happen, while they no longer are able to accomplish this task by an act of God even though they claim this as a way to intimidate Christians into thinking this still gives them greater authority. However, He has given the Son authority, and said no one will come to Him unless they accept the Son (John 14:16). Also, Israel was created by an act of God, and they were also sent into captivity by an act of God. So, it takes discernment to understand His will today in regard to this issue that is more substantial then using the words He told Abraham as some sort of fortune cookie message blinding us to whether our decision is the will of God, or not. And as for UCI,"the Unity Coalition for Israel has convened an alliance of Christian and Jewish organizations actively working together to generate support for the State of Israel. With more than 200 autonomous partners, representing more than 40 million Americans, we are the largest network of Pro-Israel groups in the world. Through this grassroots coalition, we deliver a much-needed message to the media and Congress." That's interesting because the Bible says that all I have to do to support Israel is present the Gospel. That's sounds like a whole lot of unnecessary work. What we should be doing is seriously considering whether support for Israel is a detriment to the church. UCI is a Judeo-Christian organization. Judeo-Christian organization is an ecumenical term that is unnecessary for the one who truly accepts Christ for the forgiveness of sin. Basically what the coalition realizes is the Christian church is a road block in establishing Israel and without our help, it will not happen, which kinds of reiterates the claim they make that Israel was created by an act of God. It would appear that they expect Israel to be created by an act of man in the modern world blessed by the grace that Christ gave His church. So, if you are truly comfortable with the reality that supporting Israel could be supporting the future persecution of your brothers and sisters in Christ whether they be Jew or Gentile, by all means support the non-christian organization lobbying for Israel. However, I am not comfortable with that possibility and would rather invest my time and efforts to protect the church from this than blindly follow the crowd over the cliff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSchool2 Posted May 13, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 701 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,511 Content Per Day: 1.35 Reputation: 1,759 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/18/1955 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 What do the following reasons have to do with "gaining prosperity"? "Christians owe a debt of eternal gratitude to the Jewish people for their contributions that gave birth to the Christian faith.... "While some Christians try to deny the connection between Jesus of Nazareth and the Jews of the world, Jesus never denied his Jewishness.... "We support Israel because all other nations were created by an act of men, but Israel was created by an act of God!..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esther4:14 Posted May 13, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 603 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 628 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/07/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted May 13, 2016 41 minutes ago, OldSchool2 said: What do the following reasons have to do with "gaining prosperity"? "Christians owe a debt of eternal gratitude to the Jewish people for their contributions that gave birth to the Christian faith.... "While some Christians try to deny the connection between Jesus of Nazareth and the Jews of the world, Jesus never denied his Jewishness.... "We support Israel because all other nations were created by an act of men, but Israel was created by an act of God!..." I already explained the process by which we are being deceived into believing that every reason they outline to support Israel follows a false reward system that they invoke by saying that He will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you, which I have further proved with scripture is not always the case when there is rebellion, and which you apparently have deliberately ignored by reasserting the same comments that I already responded to as though they speak for themselves. Further, the reasons suggested by this organization are false to begin with and do not correspond with the doctrine of the New Covenant. You can't put new wine into old wine skins (Mark 2:22), which is what this organization is trying to do. And finally, I do not support the nation of Israel's rejection of Christ nor do I feel obligated to do so no matter how many times they pin the verse about blessing or cursing the descendants of Abraham as some sort of threat against the church. I will never feel obligated to support a nation who claims favor from the Father, yet rejects the Son. I would strongly suggest that the church reconsider their involvement in this endeavor as well. I firmly believe it will be a detriment to the church if it continues. That is all I have to say on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted May 13, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 185 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,224 Content Per Day: 3.34 Reputation: 16,647 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 13, 2016 I choose to support Israel with my prayers, my votes and letters to congressmen. To me true prosperity is spiritual. So we should honor our ally and our treaties with that nation. We should pray for the peace of Jerusalem. God has come to her aid repeatedly in recent wars with her neighbors when she was doomed and greatly outnumbered. To hate Jews is ridiculous bigotry. As I reminded a 98 year old lady, your Savior is Jewish. She responded that He is not because Ruth was a Moabite. So Jesus is a Moabite. I threw up my hands. You can't reason with bigotry. Love Your Enemies WEB Mat 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ Mat 5:44 But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, 5:45 that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. 5:46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same? Mat 5:47 If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same? Mat 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmbld Posted May 14, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,491 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 1,457 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/23/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/02/1971 Share Posted May 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Esther4:14 said: I already explained the process by which we are being deceived into believing that every reason they outline to support Israel follows a false reward system that they invoke by saying that He will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you, which I have further proved with scripture is not always the case when there is rebellion, and which you apparently have deliberately ignored by reasserting the same comments that I already responded to as though they speak for themselves. Further, the reasons suggested by this organization are false to begin with and do not correspond with the doctrine of the New Covenant. You can't put new wine into old wine skins (Mark 2:22), which is what this organization is trying to do. And finally, I do not support the nation of Israel's rejection of Christ nor do I feel obligated to do so no matter how many times they pin the verse about blessing or cursing the descendants of Abraham as some sort of threat against the church. I will never feel obligated to support a nation who claims favor from the Father, yet rejects the Son. I would strongly suggest that the church reconsider their involvement in this endeavor as well. I firmly believe it will be a detriment to the church if it continues. That is all I have to say on this matter. Interesting read. Yet, Scripture points to a restoration, Romans 11:26-30 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Certainly, God has singled out Israel. Is God's love dependent on one being worthy of His love? Didn't God love us even as we rejected His Son? For how else is salvation possible? I pray for Israel, and thank God for His beautiful picture of His love for Israel in scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSchool2 Posted May 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 701 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,511 Content Per Day: 1.35 Reputation: 1,759 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/18/1955 Author Share Posted May 14, 2016 11 hours ago, Esther4:14 said: I already explained the process by which we are being deceived into believing that every reason they outline to support Israel follows a false reward system that they invoke by saying that He will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you.... God's promises are not false even in the face of human frailty. And rationales based on Christians owing a (spiritual) debt of gratitude, Jesus' Jewishness and Israel's divine creation all have nothing to do with any prosperity doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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